When PCGS AND NGC disagree on a grade ....

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Do you sell the coin ?

Do you try to get PCGS to holder the coin ?

Do you get NGC to holder the coin ?

Do you send it to CAC ?

STEWART

darktone

if you enjoy the coin you should keep it regardless if it is in plastic or not.

BAJJERFAN

I would think it might depend on the uniqueness/rarity of the piece. If its going to gnaw on you every time you look at it because PCGS didn't give it the grade you feel it should have you might want to sell it, esp if you can get your $$$ back. Maybe one could get a personal review at a major show with a PCGS principal who has the power to change the grade.

TwoSides2aCoin

Do you sell the coin ? ( I have in the past)

Do you try to get PCGS to holder the coin ? (Yes)

Do you get NGC to holder the coin ? (No)

Do you send it to CAC ? (No, I just tease them here for acting like Minnie Pearl )



I reserve the right to remove the photo in case I hurt the reputation of HeeHaw.

Oh, and happy new year, Stewart.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.
Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player. I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

Stewart

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS !

RYK

You make a good point, Stewart, and in the past, I have been similarly disenchanted.

I have tried to refocus my collecting efforts in ways that do not give PCGS as many opportunities to disappoint me.

Barry

Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player.

How can you call someone who can't grade his own coins a major player?

I wouldn't call it a shame. I'd call it a wake-up call that should be heeded, so not to throw any more money down the toilet.

IrishMike

First of all I couldn't care less what a TPG thinks of a coin. Sounds like your friend got an expensive education. I've never in 50+ years of collecting bought a coin thinking that I could get it slabbed or crossed. I don't disrespect those that collect the finest and build sets with those coins, in fact I admire many of those sets, its just never been my thing. If you are going to compete with the big boys then you better be smart about it. I wonder sometimes if collectors aren't more interested in impressing their peers instead of enjoying the hobby.

To answer your question, if your intent is to sell the coins and I would suggest he does if he is turned off then try to get them slabbed to maximize their value. I'd attempt to figure out how each TPG would grade it and send off to where it is most likely to get graded. If the coins are cleaned then take them to a local or regional show as many dealers wouldn't know the difference.

jhdfla

<< <i>I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.
Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player. I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

Stewart

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



He should have sought some advice or re-submitted the coins in the original holders, as I'm sure he is painfully aware of now. I'm sort of amazed you characterize him as "major player" and he pulled a stunt like that, he certainly should have known better.

john

Spudmasher

Stewart - I saw your Indian Heads, and Lincolns at the ANA in Baltimore, and the only equivalent would be at the Mint Collection that was on display in the 70's in Washington, DC. Don't really care whose plastic they were in.................CAC, and awe.....

lcoopie

I can say that if you were my friend
I would be consulting YOU before I did anything related to coins

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.
Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player. I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

Stewart

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



Did he seek your advice before cracking them out OR did he refuse to believe what you told him?

Treeman

The whole "PCGS" "NGC" thing gets me wondering... doesn't anyone look at the COINS anymore? This "PLASTIC" thing is really getting out of hand. Fact is, on any given day, you may find a nicer example in either holder. The Kool-Aid gang tend to talk themselves into thinking a lesser coin is better, just because it's in the right flavor of plastic. I have seen the "better" example of the same coin in PCGS plastic, and I have seen the "better" example in NGC plastic. Anyone who continues to insist that one service is always better does not look at the coins inside the plastic. I must agree though, if you are looking to flip moderns, PCGS is ALWAYS better for making a buck. The coin inside may not be better, but people do pay a higher price on these in PCGS plastic. If, on the other hand, you happen to be a COLLECTOR, it is in your best interest to actually look at the COIN inside the slab......

garsmith

<< <i>Do you sell the coin ?

Do you try to get PCGS to holder the coin ?

Do you get NGC to holder the coin ?

Do you send it to CAC ?

STEWART >>




Who's NGC

Atlantic

<< <i>I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



I agree totally with your thoughts Stewart,, I also got an education many years ago when I cracked out some of my coins for re-grading,, we live and learn,,

I hope that your comments here will persuade PCGS to come up with some sort of a policy as you spoke of.

lkeigwin

Of course we look at coins. Don't be silly. But you cannot ignore the fact that the grade and TPG cited on the plastic determines (or influences, at the very least) what most collectors will pay for it.

If you never intend to sell, and don't care about your heirs disposing of your collection, then fine...ignore the holder, grade, TPG, etc. That's a great way to enjoy the hobby, I agree. But that's not the case for many of us. We sell and upgrade, chase new interests financed by the sale of old ones, and the TPG and grade is critical.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Of course we look at coins. Don't be silly. But you cannot ignore the fact that the grade and TPG cited on the plastic determines (or influences, at the very least) what most collectors will pay for it.

If you never intend to sell, and don't care about your heirs disposing of your collection, then fine...ignore the holder, grade, TPG, etc. That's a great way to enjoy the hobby, I agree. But that's not the case for many of us. We sell and upgrade, chase new interests financed by the sale of old ones, and the TPG and grade is critical. >>



For the first sentence; some of the smartest words ever posted here. For the second sentence; Herpes is forever, coins are not.

IrishMike

<< <i>Of course we look at coins. Don't be silly. But you cannot ignore the fact that the grade and TPG cited on the plastic determines (or influences, at the very least) what most collectors will pay for it.

If you never intend to sell, and don't care about your heirs disposing of your collection, then fine...ignore the holder, grade, TPG, etc. That's a great way to enjoy the hobby, I agree. But that's not the case for many of us. We sell and upgrade, chase new interests financed by the sale of old ones, and the TPG and grade is critical. >>



Most collectors, I highly doubt that part. Most collectors have a few bucks, buy a coin online or at a local show and what they spend depends on how much disposable cash or credit card balance they have left. Now if you mean collectors who are trying to buy the best coin for the money then I agree.

tradedollarnut

It depends on what I and a few trusted experts think of the coin. If I missed something [and I certainly have before], then I sell it off. If I like the coin for the grade, I keep it unless I find a better one.

Holders are fluid - what won't cross today, may cross tomorrow. Worry less about what holder the coin is in and more about the actual quality of the coin.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Holders are fluid - what won't cross today, may cross tomorrow. Worry less about what holder the coin is in and more about the actual quality of the coin. >>



Yes!

Lakesammman

They seldom agree, at least with copper. No big deal. I would spend a week with LMS in his loft learning the nuances of copper before I spent any real money.

Also agree with TDN/CRO.

BloodMan

As a submitter, I certainly understand the disappointment of not getting the grades that you think your coins deserve. It is easy to say that you should not have cracked out the coins, but at the time you thought that they could not possibly come back lower (or worse cleaned/altered).

I like to think of a grade for a coin as a distribution of grades, rather than an exact grade. Even skilled graders lack the precision required to assign a grade consistently. In the Bowers book on Double Eagles, he tells the story of a leading dealer who submitted a 1916-D dime 24 times to get a grade of MS-65. The coin probably had a mean grade of MS-63 or MS-64, but the upper end (4%) of the distribution was MS-65.

I suggest buying graded coins that have nice eye appeal and are nice for the grade, but never assume a coin will upgrade. Think very carefully when cracking-out a coin from a no-problem holder as it may be returned in a Genuine-Bodybag holder.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>Do you sell the coin ?

Do you try to get PCGS to holder the coin ?

Do you get NGC to holder the coin ?

Do you send it to CAC ?

STEWART >>


a) If you like the coin, then get it into whichever holder you prefer (or none at all), and keep it.

b) If you don't like the coin, then get it into whichever holder adds the most value, and sell it.

That NGC and PCGS grade differently should have no bearing on the decision.

If you thought you liked a coin, and later decided you didn't because PCGS didn't give you the grade,
then I'd say see b) above. I'm not sure how PCGS bears any responsibility in that scenario. It's the
collector's job to seek advice before purchasing if they are not sufficiently knowledgeable about coins.

CoinRaritiesOnline

Here is a question for you Stuart:

You have a magnificent set of coppers, as we all saw at the ANA. All your coins are in PCGS holders, I believe. In your opinion, if you cracked them all out and sent them in to PCGS for grading:

What % would come back the same grade?

What % higher?

What % lower?

What % bodybags (er, I mean in "genuine" holders)?





My point is -- grading is an opinion, that is all. It is the coins that count.

Trime

They disagree frequently but not always in the same direction. Some series there seems to be less agreement between them . For example it has been my experience that PCGS is more conservative on grading 3CS than NGC while in other series of the same metal the consistency is somewhat greater. I know graders in both of these houses and respect their grading skills. I have seen them together and believe they also respect each other. The market places a premium in a general sense for PCGS and each of us can judge if this is justified. The mantra of this forum is judge each coin before you purchase. If you have doubt ask someone you respect for a second opinion.
I have coins in both holders that I like a lot and some in both that I have become less enamored with. Some time ago, I was encouraged by one of the major auction houses to submit selected coins for upgrade or cross from one house to the other. None were cracked out . Some did, some didn't. Since then they have sat in the existing holder. I am content.

Treeman

"Holders are fluid - what won't cross today, may cross tomorrow. Worry less about what holder the coin is in and more about the actual quality of the coin. "

I guess that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.... You just said it better :-)

lcoopie

I am probably the only one here,
never to re-send a coin in for grading once it's in a PCGS or NCG holder.
So I don't know if they would disagree frequently.
I guess it depends on the coin itself, which is how it should be.

ChrisRx

It also does not help that the rumor is that pcgs is stricter than strict as of late.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>
ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



Why should it be free?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>It also does not help that the rumor is that pcgs is stricter than strict as of late. >>

NGC is pretty tough right now too.

darktone

how many times do you think the coins were originally submitted to get those grades? - might have to try a few more times. I had an 1834 $5 that bagged at NGC,graded at PCGS as 45 than cracked and graded AU53 NGC all in a few months.

Elcontador

<< <i>I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.
Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player. I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

Stewart

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



Stewart - I am going to come down on this guy and come down on him hard. Here is someone who does not know how to grade coins, spends quite a bit of money on them, whines when he doesn't get the grades he wants, and then cries and goes home to his momma.
Personally, I'm glad he's gone, and I hope he has learned something.

Imo, this guy is not a major player. He's a naco; un pinche pendejo . He is a fool who was separated from his money, nothing more, nothing less. Numismatics is a lot like the Wild West. You can make or lose a fortune buying and selling coins. It is up to the prospective coin buyer to get educated and know what he / she is doing BEFORE jumping in with both feet, so to speak. He didn't do this, and he's SOL. End of story.

Also, I strongly disagree with you. PCGS has no obligation to anybody other than to do their best to grade the coins they receive correctly, and keep turnaround time as low as possible. They are a private, for profit enterprise. They are not a charitable organization.

jhdfla

<< <i>Also, I strongly disagree with you. PCGS has no obligation to anybody other than to do their best to grade the coins they receive correctly, and keep turnaround time as low as possible. They are a private, for profit enterprise. They are not a charitable organization. >>



Absolutely. And worded perfectly.

bidask

<< <i>I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.
Feeling totally frustrated he has now decided to auction most all of his copper coins. I think this is a shame. Had he shown me the coins beforehand I could have informed him in a less painful manner and the copper collecting community would not have lost a major player. I think it is the responsibility of PCGS to use its member dealers to assist collectors in PRE - determining downgrades,cleaned coins,altered coins,dipped and stripped coins and BodyBags BEFORE PCGS gets their grading fees and kills the cash cows.

Stewart

ps - PCGS should inform all their collector club members of specialized dealers who could provide this service for FREE. Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>

I disagree regarding what you think PCGS should do ......what your friend experienced is another example of overgrading, marketgrading, and being otherwise to liberal on the part of whatever third party grader he used. My sense is he has not been collecting long to give up like that.

robkool

Always buy the coin, not the plastic...

scoobydeux

<< <i>It depends on what I and a few trusted experts think of the coin. If I missed something [and I certainly have before], then I sell it off. If I like the coin for the grade, I keep it unless I find a better one.

Holders are fluid - what won't cross today, may cross tomorrow. Worry less about what holder the coin is in and more about the actual quality of the coin. >>



I agree. Absolutely.

coinkat

I am not loosing sleep over this one... the plastic is not the coin

CalGold

Isnt' t the point here that if the PCGS graders did not like your coin, maybe other collectors won't either? To put it anohter way, maybe it really is not as nice as you thought. Isn't that what the "plastic" is saying?

CG

coolkarma

<< <i>

<< <i>Elcontador: Also, I strongly disagree with you. PCGS has no obligation to anybody other than to do their best to grade the coins they receive correctly, and keep turnaround time as low as possible. They are a private, for profit enterprise. They are not a charitable organization. >>



jhdfla: Absolutely. And worded perfectly. >>



I agree that PCGS is a "private, for profit enterprise" and "not a charitable organization". This means their obligation is to make a profit. The education of collectors is important to their bottom line, both in the short and especially in the long term. If they educate collectors, they will have happier clients and more business. As Stewart said:


<< <i>Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



Coolkarma

leothelyon

Why not grade every coin high end for the grade? Problem solved.


Leo

Elcontador

<< <i>
I agree that PCGS is a "private, for profit enterprise" and "not a charitable organization". This means their obligation is to make a profit. The education of collectors is important to their bottom line, both in the short and especially in the long term. If they educate collectors, they will have happier clients and more business. As Stewart said:


<< <i>Collectors are the soul of PCGS ! >>



Coolkarma >>



Disagree. As long as people -- dealers and collectors -- continue cracking out coins and otherwise resubmitting them for upgrades, and / or submitting ungraded material, PCGS and NGC are getting more business. Therefore, they do not need to educate collectors. I think you are using the terms 'educate' and "business promotion" interchangeably, which I think is erroneous.

Collectors need to educate themselves, or find another hobby. As I said, numismatics in many ways is like the Wild West. Do your homework or get out.

lusterlover

<< <i>I have a good friend who cracked all his copper coins from another third party grading holder and sent them to PCGS. Needless to say PCGS killed him on the grades.

Stewart

Some "friend" you are Stewart! It never came up in conversation that you are an expert copper collector

Bochiman

Too many high end folks seem to buy the plastic and need the reassurance in order to collect....TDN withstanding as he already commented on how he does it (and I agree with that rational).

It's likely a registry thing for some. Can't like the coin unless it makes them better than other folks.

I have had some coins that I tried to cross into PCGS (from NGC) a few months back. Some didn't. I still like the coins and have kept them. Sure, they would be worth more in PCGS plastic, but I didn't buy them to play a money game. I bought them because I AM A COLLECTOR. My son likes the toned ones and I like them all. Does he care what plastic? Nope. he is young and innocent and just likes a coin for what it is.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

THE MAIN FACT THAT I AM TRYING TO ELICIT IS THE STANDARD FOR DETERMINING RED,RED BROWN AND BROWN

This standard changes between 100%,95%,90% and 85%. I has a semi key Lincoln cent go from$3,500 to $800 because of color variation. This is a fact that only certain
experienced numismatists can inform unexperienced collectors.

As far as silver coins go my experience is dipped and stripped coins suck. The natural skin is gone and these type of coins go in and out of favoritism with the grading services.
Original darker toned coins are looked down upon by grading services. I personally like darker original coins but they have a stigma when I try to sell them.

Gold coins can be easily altered because of the metal content. I would highly recommend gold coins be sent to CAC because John Albanese is the BEST at understanding gold coins.

Stewart Blay

coinkat

In all fairness, why didn't you say that to begin with?

Coxe

If you own the coin and are not selling it, why care?

If you own the coin and want to sell it AND it is worth the slabbing fees, perhaps get NGC to certify it and then try to cross it at the same grade to PCGS.

If you don't own it (yet), it is about what it is worth to you as an informed buyer of the coin.

saintguru

<< <i>THE MAIN FACT THAT I AM TRYING TO ELICIT IS THE STANDARD FOR DETERMINING RED,RED BROWN AND BROWN

This standard changes between 100%,95%,90% and 85%. I has a semi key Lincoln cent go from$3,500 to $800 because of color variation. This is a fact that only certain
experienced numismatists can inform unexperienced collectors.

As far as silver coins go my experience is dipped and stripped coins suck. The natural skin is gone and these type of coins go in and out of favoritism with the grading services.
Original darker toned coins are looked down upon by grading services. I personally like darker original coins but they have a stigma when I try to sell them.

Gold coins can be easily altered because of the metal content. I would highly recommend gold coins be sent to CAC because John Albanese is the BEST at understanding gold coins.

Stewart Blay >>




You hit that nail on the head, Stewart. There are some of us who only buy a certain look in gold...but I've yet to meet a gold collector who could spot more tha 2 out of 10 well-doctored coins. THAT'S what I need John for. The first key to being a successful collector is having enough humility to know that there are people who know more than you and are better at spotting problems.

I have experienced the "wrath of Akers" over the years and it made me a better collector. I sold every coin that he didn't like because I KNOW he is right all the time. ALL the time. And for a copper guy you aren't so bad either at gold. Not 100% correct, but better than many gold collectors!

bidask

THAT'S what I need John for. The first key to being a successful collector is having enough humility to know that there are people who know more than you and are better at spotting problems.

That bears repeating.

saintguru

<< <i>THAT'S what I need John for. The first key to being a successful collector is having enough humility to know that there are people who know more than you and are better at spotting problems.

That bears repeating. >>




OK~!!

topstuf

GAMES! GAMES are why I only buy ALREADY PCGS SLABBED coins. Which ALSO please my eye. And have NO interest in EVER buying a 6 figure tiny piece of metal even though I can afford it.

This isn't FUN anymore. It's work, worry, frustration, and disappointment. WHEEE !!!!

Ain't that a swell HOBBY?

It was....fun... when you could buy really PRETTY (what are now 5 figure) coins for WAY less than a grand "back in the day" of the early 1970's. And you could put them in an ALBUM. (shudder)

THIS stuff is irritating and doesn't SEEM to offer much ..... satisfaction.... for any length of time before a new GAME begins.

DMWJR

<< <i>If you own the coin and are not selling it, why care?

If you own the coin and want to sell it AND it is worth the slabbing fees, perhaps get NGC to certify it and then try to cross it at the same grade to PCGS.

If you don't own it (yet), it is about what it is worth to you as an informed buyer of the coin. >>




Every coin you own will be sold at some point. Why throw money down a black hole?

Do TPG graders know what they are doing?

Of course they do -- they are professionals. I think people mistake their motive and incentive though. They don't make money on actual grading, but rather submissions. Their game is to get more submissions, not necessarily more accurate grades on coins. They love "liner" coins like the OP's 85% red example. If you knew they would never grade an 85% red example "red," would you submit it for grading? But in today's world, they might so ... you submit it again.

Coins are no different than any other business. Some people are content to perform a service, and get paid exactly for that service. Many others want to find the edges and increase those margins, and it is always a gamble. A collector is also running a business model. Maybe a true collector cares nothing about increasing the value of the coin he owns and has no desire to sell it in his lifetime. But the question should be does he care if a dealer gives his widow 25% of the value of his collection after he dies? He should care about that.

Different companies have different business models and target different markets. PCGS's model is to undergrade coins, inducing a market feeling that coins in PCGS holders represent better value, which means more people trying to get more coins in their holders .... which naturally means more submissions. NGC's model is based on overgrading. Do you think NGC professionals know they grade Lincoln's looser? Of course they do. That induces submissions, which makes them money. They don't care if you want to take it back to PCGS and try to influence their graders with the NGC label. They only want submissions too.

Why does CAC not publish the certs of coins they have rejected? So they will get more "submissions."

Maybe everyone knows this, but it is worth repeating for anyone who doesn't.

TPG's desire to make money and are motivated to increase submissions.
Dealers desire to make money and are motivated by transactions involving "performing a service" and "finding the edges" and "unprotected value."
Collectors desire to enjoy their hobby, which includes "preserving value" and/or "making money."