JHF's silver dimes even made it to the front page of the "Coin Dealer Newsletter" today (maybe a first silver Roosies?!). In commenting on Superior's auction, CDN writes:
"This auction featured the aptly named Just Having Fun collection of finest-known Silver Roosevelt Dimes. Of the 47 specimens that sold, three examples - all graded MS68FB by PCGS - surpassed the $8,000 mark, contributing to a grand total of $115,000 for this one-of-a-kind amassment".
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Tim: I deleted my original comment to you, because I thought you ignored it. Rather than continue to debate with you, I elected to edit the post entirely and let you voice your strong opinion on the subject, which you are 100% entitled to do.
The owner of the coins is very happy with the auction result, I am very happy with the auction result and most of the top silver Roosie guys in the country are happy with it . You believe it was not all that great. Fair enough.
Wondercoin >>
I agree.
Tim,
You are entitled to say what you like and your reasoning is sound. No offense taken.
Wandering over here, just want to thank you guys for inviting me and my friend plus a dealer friend who were both horrified at the prospect of discussing roosies all night.
We had a great time and it was awesome meeting onlyroosies, rainbowroosies and Stooge along with friends and one brave wife! LOL.
You guys were good natured and did not kill my friends with only roosie war stories.
I went to the auction and viewed the roosies looking for a possible upgrade. Got skunked. The roosies were for the most part were awesome. Especially those electric blue ones. At the time of the auction, I thought the prices were very strong. But, There were only 15 people at the auction and 10 of them were the regular dealers that are at all of the auctions. The was virtually no action from the floor. What was with the 4 coins that were "conserved" by PCGS. (all white coins) Now i find out half did not sell. I guess roosies still need a few more years to make it in the big time.
Dunerlaw - As JHF, himself, mentioned, the reserves were not "shy" and there was no reason to be - these were among the nicest slabbed Roosies out there. You mention the "half that did not sell", but included in those coins were specimens reserved for up to $11,500 with the juice per coin. Roosies closed up to $8,600+ per coin - a world record for silver MS Roosies. A very positive auction for the Roosie market.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I guess roosies still need a few more years to make it in the big time. >>
I agree, thats why those collecting the low pop FB's and high grades from '46 thru '98 will have a head start on those that come along later. I exempt the 1999 thru 2004 because of the high numbers grading MS68FB. But at the same time the MS69 FB's for these same years will pay a real dividend someday. As for Satin Finish coins, if you melt several thousand down, they make a great boat anchor. I never charged over $25.00 for any 69FB SF coin from the set I sold. Yeah yeah I know, some are still selling a couple of those dates for over $100.00, and are asking $500. thru several thousand for some of the 2008's.
First, my thank to TAClough for his thoughtful and emphatic "NO" to my assertion and Mitch's that the auction was a success.
His central point was that an auction where more than half the coins didn't sell can hardly be termed a success. That's certainly not an unreasonable point of view. Actually I find myself quite sympathetic to it.
But his reasoning from there seems clouded ...
"Again, with the large percentage that didn’t sell because of the high unrealistic reserves, the only conclusion that I can draw is one or more of the following:
"a) The reserves were set by someone unfamiliar with the series and / or what the market would support. "b) There was an attempt to gouge the collectors. "c) The collection was not really for sale."
Looking at these points one by one ... (a) The reserves were set by one of the handful of people most familiar with the series, Mitch. So that doesn't hold up.
(b) There was an attempt to gouge the collectors? How do you gouge collectors who are free to bid or NOT to bid? It's not like the US Post Office, which, with the might of the US government behind it can set whatever rates they want. THEY gouge their customers because the government has banned competitors. Likewise, electric utilities granted local monopolies, can "gouge" their customers by charging more than market rates.
And guyz, I would have loved to have amiably and ethically gouged you and realized twice what I thought the coins were worth, but dammit, in the free-wheeling atmosphere of the auction, Mitch and I just couldn't swing it.
(c) The collection was or wasn't really for sale? Well, I know my mind better than anyone, and in my heart of hearts, there was no doubt that the set was for sale. And the fact is that almost half my singles sold, including many of my favorites, so there's the objective evidence. Sob.
So why did more than half the coins not sell?
I have some ideas of my own, that I'll post shortly. But I'd like to get your ideas, and that includes you, Mr. TAClough.
Best wishes from Bangkok, where I continue to be
Just Having Fun -- and lots of it
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Considering well MORE THAN half the lots that sold in the auction were sold to professional upgraders - "world class" upgraders at that (and the lots upgraders generally stay away from are top grade coins such as MS68FB dimes where we have heard in this thread that those types of coins essentially were very faily priced) - and I fully expected that to happen (even telling JHF and Superior literally from day 1 to expect it and plan for it) - before we analyze Tim's assertions, this one should probably be modified to "there was an attempt to gouge professional upgraders". And, all kidding aside, my job was to ensure that JHF's coins sold in a manner (and at price levels) consistent with JHF's expectations (expectations it was my job to assess and advise on), which I know I successfully accomplished.
Of course, knowing that more than half the lots sold to upgraders (and not collectors), it makes JHF's latest question of why only half the lots sold perhaps even a more interesting question. And, I have some thoughts on it as well, which I will be happy to share after reading what JHF has to say on the subject.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
JHF - When one is dealing in an environment of very thinly traded top quality coins at auction, there is much that must be considered when placing reserves, as you know. In the case of these beautiful and rare dimes, they are so thinly traded that there are no accurate, up-to-date comparable sales to consider. Top expert collectors and world-class dealer/upgraders were all hoping for low reserves, but that would not provide the proper protection to the consignor in such a thinly traded series. This collection was also likely going to be "carved up". This is just a reality of the marketplace these days and something a consignor is often best advised to protect against. Many of the coins were upgrade candidates, not only within PCGS's current standards, but, and even more importantly, at NGC. We may soon see some of the coins from the JHF sale showing up in higher grade NGC holders - I believe the consignor anticipated that, and it was most likely a key factor on the reserves set on many coins. Placing reserves on the coins, while protecting the consignor to the greatest extent possible with the above mentioned considerations, is best left to an expert in the series and, in my opinion, JHF couldn't have picked a stronger expert to assist in pricing his coins in this particular series. In this auction, placing reserves on the possible upgrade candidates was, I’m sure, a most difficult task. In many cases, the reserve had to reflect a price that took into account the value of coin when it receives the expected upgrade (with the % chance the upgrade would occur also factored in). The consignor had to walk a very fine line when placing reserves, and from my standpoint, the reserves, and eventual sales, reflected this fine line. (Only) Half the coins sold went to dealer/upgraders. This shows me that the reserves were placed aggressively, but within reason. If all, or even most of the coins had sold, and I was the consignor, I would have felt that the coins were under-reserved. If the dealer/upgraders picked up far less than they did, I would have felt that the coins may have been over-reserved. It looks to me like the coins were properly reserved to make the most sales at the most fair prices to the consignor and the buyers. I would not be surprised if, since the auction, there have been offers-to-buy previously unsold coins within 10% of the original auction reserves. Congratulations JHF and Mitch. I think you truly did an outstanding job reserving these coins in the auction!
Craig - With all due respect, did you ever try outbidding these world class upgraders for 20th century coins? Forget about it. I remember trying to buy a 1912-S Lincoln cent in PCGS-MS65RD I thought had a good chance to go MS66RD. At the time, the coin was a $5,000 - $7,500 coin in MS65RD. I finally put my paddle down at $27,000 before these (same) upgraders pounded me into submission. After the auction, they told me they were prepared to go to $50,000 for the coin if I had kept bidding (and I believed them!) Go take a look at prices realized for 1912-S Lincoln cents in MS65RD at Heritage to see what I mean (for that matter -any one remember Superior auction a couple years ago for a colorful MS67 Oregon that fetched $69,000!!) In short, IMHO, the fact that upgraders bought half the sale only shows just how incredible the quality of the JHF coins actually was. I learned after the sale, a few of my reserves on unsold coins were simply a bit too high for the upgraders to play, but, that they agreed the coins were worthy of that kind of reserve. For example, on one of the MS67FB coins that JHF and I reserved for $4,600 (that lists for under $1,000 full Price Guide), one of the upgraders bid it up to $4,000 before quiting. After the auction, I was asked why we reserved that coin so high and I responded that "we graded the coin MS68FB". The upgrader responded with "of course the coin will regrade MS68FB, but you simply did not leave enough money in the coin for me with that reserve." The MS68FB would have been worth about $7,500+ - I am comfortable that JHF had left enough "room in the coin" at $4,600. But, I acknowledge it was close.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
RC: Well reasoned post. And, one other thing as it ties into Manofcoins comments....
The coin I mentioned that we reserved at $4,600 , the upgraders bid it up to $4,000 before quiting and I valued at $7,500+ as an MS68FB....
To the upgraders, it is all about dollars and cents. They agreed with my assessment that the coin was going to upgrade one day to an MS68FB and be worth $7,500+. But, it simply did not work for the upgraders to buy it at that level that day. On the other hand, had the upgraders bought it and upgraded it, I am convinced there would have been numerous collectors willing to happily buy it for $7,500. But, the upgraders can be more selective in where they spend $4,600 to make $3,000 profit in this market. In fact, one of the comments of one of the upgraders I spoke with after the auction was that "I am now trying to focus my buying to coins I can make 10x on if the upgrade works".
Yet, the reality is that most collectors will generally not spend $4,000 for coins listed in the guide at under $1,000 that have a decent chance to upgrade to $7,500 coins (nor should they). They are content paying $7,500 for the "finished product". This proved true once again in this auction as upgraders ran off with half the coins sold. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
"This auction featured the aptly named Just Having Fun collection of finest-known Silver Roosevelt Dimes. Of the 47 specimens that sold, three examples - all graded MS68FB by PCGS - surpassed the $8,000 mark, contributing to a grand total of $115,000 for this one-of-a-kind amassment".
Wondercoin
<< <i>Tim: I deleted my original comment to you, because I thought you ignored it. Rather than continue to debate with you, I elected to edit the post entirely and let you voice your strong opinion on the subject, which you are 100% entitled to do.
The owner of the coins is very happy with the auction result, I am very happy with the auction result and most of the top silver Roosie guys in the country are happy with it . You believe it was not all that great. Fair enough.
Wondercoin >>
I agree.
Tim,
You are entitled to say what you like and your reasoning is sound. No offense taken.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
We had a great time and it was awesome meeting onlyroosies, rainbowroosies and Stooge along with friends and one brave wife! LOL.
You guys were good natured and did not kill my friends with only roosie war stories.
Got skunked.
The roosies were for the most part were awesome. Especially those electric blue ones.
At the time of the auction, I thought the prices were very strong.
But,
There were only 15 people at the auction and 10 of them were the regular dealers that are at all of the auctions.
The was virtually no action from the floor.
What was with the 4 coins that were "conserved" by PCGS. (all white coins)
Now i find out half did not sell.
I guess roosies still need a few more years to make it in the big time.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I guess roosies still need a few more years to make it in the big time. >>
I agree, thats why those collecting the low pop FB's and high grades from '46 thru '98 will have a head start on those that come along later. I exempt the 1999 thru 2004 because of the high numbers grading MS68FB. But at the same time the MS69 FB's for these same years will pay a real dividend someday.
As for Satin Finish coins, if you melt several thousand down, they make a great boat anchor. I never charged over $25.00 for any 69FB SF coin from the set I sold. Yeah yeah I know, some are still selling a couple of those dates for over $100.00, and are asking $500. thru several thousand for some of the 2008's.
His central point was that an auction where more than half the coins didn't sell can hardly be termed a success. That's certainly not an unreasonable point of view. Actually I find myself quite sympathetic to it.
But his reasoning from there seems clouded ...
"Again, with the large percentage that didn’t sell because of the high unrealistic reserves, the only conclusion that I can draw is one or more of the following:
"a) The reserves were set by someone unfamiliar with the series and / or what the market would support.
"b) There was an attempt to gouge the collectors.
"c) The collection was not really for sale."
Looking at these points one by one ... (a) The reserves were set by one of the handful of people most familiar with the series, Mitch. So that doesn't hold up.
(b) There was an attempt to gouge the collectors? How do you gouge collectors who are free to bid or NOT to bid? It's not like the US Post Office, which, with the might of the US government behind it can set whatever rates they want. THEY gouge their customers because the government has banned competitors. Likewise, electric utilities granted local monopolies, can "gouge" their customers by charging more than market rates.
And guyz, I would have loved to have amiably and ethically gouged you and realized twice what I thought the coins were worth, but dammit, in the free-wheeling atmosphere of the auction, Mitch and I just couldn't swing it.
(c) The collection was or wasn't really for sale? Well, I know my mind better than anyone, and in my heart of hearts, there was no doubt that the set was for sale. And the fact is that almost half my singles sold, including many of my favorites, so there's the objective evidence. Sob.
So why did more than half the coins not sell?
I have some ideas of my own, that I'll post shortly. But I'd like to get your ideas, and that includes you, Mr. TAClough.
Best wishes from Bangkok, where I continue to be
Just Having Fun -- and lots of it
Considering well MORE THAN half the lots that sold in the auction were sold to professional upgraders - "world class" upgraders at that (and the lots upgraders generally stay away from are top grade coins such as MS68FB dimes where we have heard in this thread that those types of coins essentially were very faily priced) - and I fully expected that to happen (even telling JHF and Superior literally from day 1 to expect it and plan for it) - before we analyze Tim's assertions, this one should probably be modified to "there was an attempt to gouge professional upgraders".
Of course, knowing that more than half the lots sold to upgraders (and not collectors), it makes JHF's latest question of why only half the lots sold perhaps even a more interesting question. And, I have some thoughts on it as well, which I will be happy to share after reading what JHF has to say on the subject.
Wondercoin
This collection was also likely going to be "carved up". This is just a reality of the marketplace these days and something a consignor is often best advised to protect against. Many of the coins were upgrade candidates, not only within PCGS's current standards, but, and even more importantly, at NGC. We may soon see some of the coins from the JHF sale showing up in higher grade NGC holders - I believe the consignor anticipated that, and it was most likely a key factor on the reserves set on many coins.
Placing reserves on the coins, while protecting the consignor to the greatest extent possible with the above mentioned considerations, is best left to an expert in the series and, in my opinion, JHF couldn't have picked a stronger expert to assist in pricing his coins in this particular series.
In this auction, placing reserves on the possible upgrade candidates was, I’m sure, a most difficult task. In many cases, the reserve had to reflect a price that took into account the value of coin when it receives the expected upgrade (with the % chance the upgrade would occur also factored in). The consignor had to walk a very fine line when placing reserves, and from my standpoint, the reserves, and eventual sales, reflected this fine line.
(Only) Half the coins sold went to dealer/upgraders. This shows me that the reserves were placed aggressively, but within reason. If all, or even most of the coins had sold, and I was the consignor, I would have felt that the coins were under-reserved. If the dealer/upgraders picked up far less than they did, I would have felt that the coins may have been over-reserved.
It looks to me like the coins were properly reserved to make the most sales at the most fair prices to the consignor and the buyers. I would not be surprised if, since the auction, there have been offers-to-buy previously unsold coins within 10% of the original auction reserves.
Congratulations JHF and Mitch. I think you truly did an outstanding job reserving these coins in the auction!
Wondercoin
The coin I mentioned that we reserved at $4,600 , the upgraders bid it up to $4,000 before quiting and I valued at $7,500+ as an MS68FB....
To the upgraders, it is all about dollars and cents. They agreed with my assessment that the coin was going to upgrade one day to an MS68FB and be worth $7,500+. But, it simply did not work for the upgraders to buy it at that level that day. On the other hand, had the upgraders bought it and upgraded it, I am convinced there would have been numerous collectors willing to happily buy it for $7,500. But, the upgraders can be more selective in where they spend $4,600 to make $3,000 profit in this market. In fact, one of the comments of one of the upgraders I spoke with after the auction was that "I am now trying to focus my buying to coins I can make 10x on if the upgrade works".
Yet, the reality is that most collectors will generally not spend $4,000 for coins listed in the guide at under $1,000 that have a decent chance to upgrade to $7,500 coins (nor should they). They are content paying $7,500 for the "finished product". This proved true once again in this auction as upgraders ran off with half the coins sold. Wondercoin