Could I vent, please?
frankhardy
Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
A couple of weeks ago, I sold a 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie in GD condition. It has a crease down the middle, but I believe it is well within the range of a PSA 2 GD grade.
I must say that there are definitely IDIOTS out there. First of all, the crease is clearly visible in my (I must say) top notch scan. Plus, I said in the description that, in my opinion, this card is in GD condition. The guy takes about 2 weeks to pay and then finally Paypal's me. I sent him the card immediately. He got the card today, and here is the email (copied and pasted) that I got from him along with a Paypal dispute -
HI I GOT THE ITE TODAY .
BUT THIS IS NOT THE ITEM I BID ON.
YOU SAID ON THE PAGE THAT I BID ON THAT THE ITEM WAS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS IS WATH YOU SAID ON THE PAGE I BID ON.
Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CAONDITION.
I WILL LIKE A REFUND.
By the way, here is a link to the auction.
1958 Topps Maris
I do have a question for you guys. He filed a Paypal "Significantly Not As Discribed" dispute. I do not mind refunding him the money at all. I would have done that without an official dispute. If he wins the dispute, will he get the money AND be able to keep the card? Or, will Paypal make sure that the card is returned. I am almost afraid of the answer.
Boy, you try to do everything right (delivery confirmation, nice scans, accurate description, perfect feedback, etc), and you still get shafted!
I must say that there are definitely IDIOTS out there. First of all, the crease is clearly visible in my (I must say) top notch scan. Plus, I said in the description that, in my opinion, this card is in GD condition. The guy takes about 2 weeks to pay and then finally Paypal's me. I sent him the card immediately. He got the card today, and here is the email (copied and pasted) that I got from him along with a Paypal dispute -
HI I GOT THE ITE TODAY .
BUT THIS IS NOT THE ITEM I BID ON.
YOU SAID ON THE PAGE THAT I BID ON THAT THE ITEM WAS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS IS WATH YOU SAID ON THE PAGE I BID ON.
Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CAONDITION.
I WILL LIKE A REFUND.
By the way, here is a link to the auction.
1958 Topps Maris
I do have a question for you guys. He filed a Paypal "Significantly Not As Discribed" dispute. I do not mind refunding him the money at all. I would have done that without an official dispute. If he wins the dispute, will he get the money AND be able to keep the card? Or, will Paypal make sure that the card is returned. I am almost afraid of the answer.
Boy, you try to do everything right (delivery confirmation, nice scans, accurate description, perfect feedback, etc), and you still get shafted!
Shane
0
Comments
FWIW I seem to get about three guys like this every week, so I can feel your pain.
>
Successful transactions on the BST boards with rtimmer, coincoins, gerard, tincup, tjm965, MMR, mission16, dirtygoldman, AUandAG, deadmunny, thedutymon, leadoff4, Kid4HOF03, BRI2327, colebear, mcholke, rpcolettrane, rockdjrw, publius, quik, kalinefan, Allen, JackWESQ, CON40, Griffeyfan2430, blue227, Tiggs2012, ndleo, CDsNuts, ve3rules, doh, MurphDawg, tennessebanker, and gene1978.
ruled against him because there is no way to prove this. You have nothing to worry about!
Kevin
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>He can not win with paypal. I had the same thing happen to me and the guy tied up my money and then once he escalated it, paypal automatically
ruled against him because there is no way to prove this. You have nothing to worry about!
Kevin >>
I wish I would have read that post before I took action. I might not have acted so hastily. I did see on Paypal where I could offer a refund ONLY if he proved that he returned the card. I agreed to that. He has emailed saying he would return the card. The only thing is that if I had have argued against him in the dispute, he probably would have given me a negative on Ebay.
After we settled the dispute, I did email him back asking him if he understood my original email to him. I explained to him about PSA's grading standards and I copied and pasted PSA's standards for PSA 2 GD. I think you are right, Kevin. I don't think that he thought it was GD condition (as in PSA 2).
Shane
Everything above that sounds positive, a PSA 2 is good. Then very good, Excellent, etc.
Im sorry bro, but you are not in the wrong here. You listed the card as GD condition, not good. This guy didn't understand that its too bad, your pic is
clear as day. He can't win the paypal claim. Sucks about the neg though, when I had my incident it was a card I sold on beckett. There is nothing in
your auction that is misleading. I wouldn't send him squat!
Kevin
The card is likely indeed in good condition. That is a complex defense
and will rarely fly with PP transactions involving raw-cards.
Since no FB was left for the buyer, I cannot judge whether he is an
equal bearer of sophistication, but I sort of doubt that he is.
PP will make him send the card back with DC. He will then get a refund.
I would have offered the refund w/o PP telling me to do so, if the guy agreed
to leave no FB, or satisfactory FB.
Looks like a NEG, no matter how you handle it. The NEG won't hurt you, though.
Maybe if you offered to pay the return freight, he would agree to leaving OK FB.
PP will make him pay the freight, when they decide in his favor.
...........
Two Rules Of Selling Raw Cards On EBAY:
1. Don't sell raw cards on EBAY.
2. If you must break rule-one, describe, describe, describe, describe the card.
OVER-describe the card.
PSA 2- bad.
PSA 3- poor.
PSA 4- Fair.
PSA 5- Good.
PSA 6- Very Good.
PSA 7- Excellent
PSA 8- Near Mint.
PSA 9- Mint.
PSa 10- Perfect.
This would be closer to the truth.
Darin,
You know, I kind of like your grading scale. That really is closer to the truth.
Shane
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Disputes on sites other than EBAY are "decided" by PP under a TOTALLY
different scheme than they are on EBAY.
On EBAY, we use "the Buyer Protection Policy."
OFF of EBAY, we use "the Buyer Complaint Policy."
That is why I tell folks that PP is GREAT, as long as you don't accept it on EBAY.
Under the complaint policy, PP ONLY "decides" INR disputes/claims.
SNAD disputes/claims are not "decided."
///////////////////////
Relevant section is bolded below:
13.5 PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy
What is the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy?
It is PayPal’s process to help you resolve a problem with a seller through the PayPal Resolution Center for purchases that are not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.
The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy is similar to PayPal Buyer Protection in that it enables buyers to file Disputes for Items Not Received (INR), or for items that are Significantly Not as Described (SNAD). However, recovery of any amounts is not guaranteed and is limited to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account, even if PayPal makes a final decision in your favor.
What is the process for the Buyer Complaint Policy?
Similar to PayPal Buyer Protection, you must file a Dispute in the PayPal Resolution Center within 45 days of the date you sent the payment. Once you have done so, you should attempt to resolve the Dispute directly with the seller.
What happens if I am unable to resolve the Dispute directly with the seller?
You may escalate the Dispute to a Claim within 20 days of the date you filed the Dispute. PayPal will make a final decision for some - but not all - Claims.
PayPal will generally make a final decision for an Item Not Received (INR) Claim, but will not make a final decision for a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim, or Claims involving the following purchases: intangible items, licenses, airline flight tickets, services, vehicles, live auctions, real estate, classified ads on eBay, or other items as determined by PayPal (collectively “Ineligible Items”). This means that unless the seller voluntarily refunds your money, you will not recover any amounts for a SNAD Claim or a Claim for an Ineligible Item filed under the Buyer Complaint Policy.
What if PayPal makes a final decision in my favor?
If PayPal makes a final decision in your favor, we will collect any available funds in the seller’s PayPal balance at that time. However, recovery is not guaranteed and is limited only to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account. Any amounts collected from the seller will be placed in your Account.
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Off EBAY, PayPal ROCKS!
On EBAY, PayPal SUX!
<< <i>A couple of weeks ago, I sold a 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie in GD condition. It has a crease down the middle, but I believe it is well within the range of a PSA 2 GD grade.
I must say that there are definitely IDIOTS out there. First of all, the crease is clearly visible in my (I must say) top notch scan. Plus, I said in the description that, in my opinion, this card is in GD condition. The guy takes about 2 weeks to pay and then finally Paypal's me. I sent him the card immediately. He got the card today, and here is the email (copied and pasted) that I got from him along with a Paypal dispute -
HI I GOT THE ITE TODAY .
BUT THIS IS NOT THE ITEM I BID ON.
YOU SAID ON THE PAGE THAT I BID ON THAT THE ITEM WAS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS IS WATH YOU SAID ON THE PAGE I BID ON.
Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CAONDITION.
I WILL LIKE A REFUND.
By the way, here is a link to the auction.
1958 Topps Maris
I do have a question for you guys. He filed a Paypal "Significantly Not As Discribed" dispute. I do not mind refunding him the money at all. I would have done that without an official dispute. If he wins the dispute, will he get the money AND be able to keep the card? Or, will Paypal make sure that the card is returned. I am almost afraid of the answer.
Boy, you try to do everything right (delivery confirmation, nice scans, accurate description, perfect feedback, etc), and you still get shafted!
Sorry to disagree with you but you absolutely should have mentioned in detail the "problem" - I've offered some key cards in "good" condition with creases - I sold a 67 mantle a few years back that had been bent and probably placed on a kids bicycle spokes...and I stated that right in the auction. The scan looked great, because scans "cover up" a lot of defects and you should know that, but some buyers don't know that. From my description, I had no problem with the buyer at all and got positive feedback and remarks - If I'm remembering right I think I sold the beater for about $25.
Blame yourself here, not the buyer.
The buyer was right to complain.
problem, then I dont' see how paypal can rule with the buyer. The pic is clear...Im mean heck, the crease is going right through Roger's face!
Kevin
"THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CONDITION."
DUH
<< <i>
<< <i>A couple of weeks ago, I sold a 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie in GD condition. It has a crease down the middle, but I believe it is well within the range of a PSA 2 GD grade.
I must say that there are definitely IDIOTS out there. First of all, the crease is clearly visible in my (I must say) top notch scan. Plus, I said in the description that, in my opinion, this card is in GD condition. The guy takes about 2 weeks to pay and then finally Paypal's me. I sent him the card immediately. He got the card today, and here is the email (copied and pasted) that I got from him along with a Paypal dispute -
HI I GOT THE ITE TODAY .
BUT THIS IS NOT THE ITEM I BID ON.
YOU SAID ON THE PAGE THAT I BID ON THAT THE ITEM WAS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS IS WATH YOU SAID ON THE PAGE I BID ON.
Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CAONDITION.
I WILL LIKE A REFUND.
By the way, here is a link to the auction.
1958 Topps Maris
I do have a question for you guys. He filed a Paypal "Significantly Not As Discribed" dispute. I do not mind refunding him the money at all. I would have done that without an official dispute. If he wins the dispute, will he get the money AND be able to keep the card? Or, will Paypal make sure that the card is returned. I am almost afraid of the answer.
Boy, you try to do everything right (delivery confirmation, nice scans, accurate description, perfect feedback, etc), and you still get shafted!
Sorry to disagree with you but you absolutely should have mentioned in detail the "problem" - I've offered some key cards in "good" condition with creases - I sold a 67 mantle a few years back that had been bent and probably placed on a kids bicycle spokes...and I stated that right in the auction. The scan looked great, because scans "cover up" a lot of defects and you should know that, but some buyers don't know that. From my description, I had no problem with the buyer at all and got positive feedback and remarks - If I'm remembering right I think I sold the beater for about $25.
Blame yourself here, not the buyer.
The buyer was right to complain. >>
I will say you are partially right. Yes, if I would have said, "crease" in the auction, I probably wouldn't have this problem. However, was the buyer really right to complain? I don't think so. The scan was very clear and if he is going to be buying Roger Maris rookies, he needs to learn the grading scale. I have never had a problem selling raw like this, and I have done it a bunch.
Shane
And FWIW a card with a crease running through the face is not GOOD condition.
Steve
<< <i>
"THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CONDITION."
DUH >>
NO, KEVIN. YOU GOT IT TOTALLY WRONG. He said, "CAONDITION".
Shane
<< <i>Gotta agree with those that say that it should have been noted also in the description.
And FWIW a card with a crease running through the face is not GOOD condition.
Steve >>
I did not say "good" condition as in "great" condition. I said GD condition as in PSA 2 GD. Nowhere in my description will you find the word "good".
Shane
<< <i>you also didn't say in the description it was OC...crook! >>
Good point. (Did I just say good?) Anyway, I also forgot to mention that the corners were not sharp as razors.
Shane
A couple of weeks ago, I sold a 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie in GD condition. It has a crease down the middle, but I believe it is well within the range of a PSA 2 GD grade.
This is what I was referencing, listen I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. The guy was an idiot for sure, at the same time IMO no card with a crease
running across the entire card at the face level gets a GOOD designation. My opinion differs from yours I guess.
I never said nor did I infer that you said Good and meant great.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A couple of weeks ago, I sold a 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie in GD condition. It has a crease down the middle, but I believe it is well within the range of a PSA 2 GD grade.
I must say that there are definitely IDIOTS out there. First of all, the crease is clearly visible in my (I must say) top notch scan. Plus, I said in the description that, in my opinion, this card is in GD condition. The guy takes about 2 weeks to pay and then finally Paypal's me. I sent him the card immediately. He got the card today, and here is the email (copied and pasted) that I got from him along with a Paypal dispute -
HI I GOT THE ITE TODAY .
BUT THIS IS NOT THE ITEM I BID ON.
YOU SAID ON THE PAGE THAT I BID ON THAT THE ITEM WAS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS IS WATH YOU SAID ON THE PAGE I BID ON.
Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. THIS CARD IS BENT AND IS NOT IN GOOD CAONDITION.
I WILL LIKE A REFUND.
By the way, here is a link to the auction.
1958 Topps Maris
I do have a question for you guys. He filed a Paypal "Significantly Not As Discribed" dispute. I do not mind refunding him the money at all. I would have done that without an official dispute. If he wins the dispute, will he get the money AND be able to keep the card? Or, will Paypal make sure that the card is returned. I am almost afraid of the answer.
Boy, you try to do everything right (delivery confirmation, nice scans, accurate description, perfect feedback, etc), and you still get shafted!
Sorry to disagree with you but you absolutely should have mentioned in detail the "problem" - I've offered some key cards in "good" condition with creases - I sold a 67 mantle a few years back that had been bent and probably placed on a kids bicycle spokes...and I stated that right in the auction. The scan looked great, because scans "cover up" a lot of defects and you should know that, but some buyers don't know that. From my description, I had no problem with the buyer at all and got positive feedback and remarks - If I'm remembering right I think I sold the beater for about $25.
Blame yourself here, not the buyer.
The buyer was right to complain. >>
I will say you are partially right. Yes, if I would have said, "crease" in the auction, I probably wouldn't have this problem. However, was the buyer really right to complain? I don't think so. The scan was very clear and if he is going to be buying Roger Maris rookies, he needs to learn the grading scale. I have never had a problem selling raw like this, and I have done it a bunch. >>
You do have impeccable feedback - nice job!
Ahh...ya just refund his money, tell him you'll also refund his shipping cost to send the card back...be smart, don't be stubborn, and apologize to him for the inconvenience, don't make a long story or big deal out of it to him...now you're done with him...ya relist it describing it a little better and you'll probably still get $50 or more for it - that of course is a very popular card.
problem, then I dont' see how paypal can rule with the buyer. The pic is clear...Im mean heck, the crease is going right through Roger's face!"
/////////////////////////////////////
Currently, PP bots decide about 99.99999999% of SNAD-claims under $500.00.
Even when a seller has a viable defense - ie: TPG-slab says the card is in "good" condition -
the seller will routinely lose the initial claim and be forced to appeal using extensive docs
and sophisticated "legal" argument.
I am skilled at defeating SNADs, but Roger's face is a mess. When such a card is sold on
EBAY, it is necessary to use words to describe the mess; a picture is not enough. The
crease is obvious to us, but to someone less savy it might be seen as "a shadow on the scan/photo."
Hopefully, in this case, the buyer will keep his word.
even bring this back up?
Steve
plus halloween 4 is coming on amc, im gonna hit him in the mouth
Shane
Agree with Stevek relist it, describe it better and you will sell it with no probs.
I wouldn't say it is in Good condition I wouldn't say it is in any condition.
I'd say it has the crease and see the scan for centering and corners.
And fwiw on my scanner I don't see a crease I see some lightening of the area that's it.
Steve
Steve
Some folks, as noted, could think it is a light-streak or a shadow.
I would not think that, but some folks would.
PP is a hazard to EBAY sellers. A corrupt-blessing to crooks and idiot buyers.
on my monitor it looks shadowy.
I don't see a crease clear as day.
Steve
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Yup.
My "crooks and idiot buyers" comment was not directed at the instant buyer.
Here, the seller just made a simple error by not making his listing for the
lowest common-denominator of EBAY shopper.
If the buyer keeps his word about the FB, we will know he likely simply missed
the crease in the picture.
............
By the way, that crease might soak right out of there.
Cards like that are called off grade. The same condition ranking of Good could be used on a card
with 4 round corners (honest wear) But once a card receives that severe of abuse and especially
at the most important part of the card (face level) the crease should be noted in any description
regardless of if a scan is used.
The buyer was thinking he was getting a steal, only to receive a card where he then thought he was
being baited and switched, NOT SAYING THAT SHANE DID THAT, just saying what the buyer MAY
have thought.
Steve
"Molon Labe"
Do not be so hard on the buyer, I think he genuinely did not know of the crease.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
"Up for auction is this 1958 Topps Roger Maris rookie card. In my opinion, this card is in GD condition. Card does have a crease which is clearly shown in my scan. Any other questions please contact me. "
I ran a large mail order retail operation and learned that everything needs to be stated in auctions or ads. As an honest seller you have to cover your azz for future problems and disputes and do NOT assume people are seeing the crease or a blem in the card. Go the extra mile in listing the ad. I was also an antique fishing lure seller for a couple of years on ebay and always showed large photos of the different angles of the lures and I noted any blems or issues in the auctions. I got 100% feedback and I feel I always got top dollar for my listings as compared to what I saw the others selling.
Here is a linky of another card sold in the same condition as yours, link
Lastly, I personally think the buyer is a sheister and was trying to get an awesome deal and was hoping you were an inexperienced card collector. I'm sure he was hoping you were under grading the card because it would have graded higher without the crease.
Seriously, I feel he bought the card for a very good price even in todays market.
Good luck to you,
Brian
<< <i>I hope you dont get an empty bubble mailer back with DC. Good luck. >>
Ouch. Don't say things like that.
Shane