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Ali (Cassius Clay) best rookie card?

austinchauaustinchau Posts: 360
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
Hey guys,

I am looking for the best rookie card for Ali, this one seems to be the earliest one,

image

do you guys know which one is his best rookie card?

If so, have any of you seen his rookie card autographed put on ebay before?

I want to see how rare it is to find his auto rookie, thanks guys!

Austin


"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain" - Apostle Paul - Philippians 1:21

Comments

  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    sweet card, he was a nut!!!!!and a great boxer too boot, he hit you 5/6 times while you was falling down on your faceimage
    man im pretty- im a bad man imageimage
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Austin

    Here are Ali (Clay) cards and stickers that are all earlier than that Barratt's:

    1960 HEMMETS JOURNAL CASSIUS CLAY HAND CUT
    1962 SWEDISH C.CLAY/K.JARLENIUS REKORD JOURNAL-HAND CUT
    1964 HEINZ VEB EGGS BOXING OLYMPIC GAMES
    1964 MAC ROBERTSONS CASSIUS CLAY OLYMPIC QUIZ CARDS
    1965 BANCROFT TIDDLERS GIANTS OF SPORT CASSIUS CLAY
    1966 DC THOMSON HORNET CASSIUS CLAY GALLERY OF SPORT-HAND CUT
    1966 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT
    1967 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT
    1968 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT

    I have not seen one of them autographed although I'm sure they exist somewhere as Ali has been a prolific signer throughout his fame. I settled for the 1983 Topps M&M's autographed for my signed "rookie" collection since I believe it is his first Topps card.

    Hope that helps. (Sorry about the all caps but I cut and pasted the list from PSA)

    Mike


    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • austinchauaustinchau Posts: 360


    << <i>Austin

    Here are Ali (Clay) cards and stickers that are all earlier than that Barratt's:

    1960 HEMMETS JOURNAL CASSIUS CLAY HAND CUT
    1962 SWEDISH C.CLAY/K.JARLENIUS REKORD JOURNAL-HAND CUT
    1964 HEINZ VEB EGGS BOXING OLYMPIC GAMES
    1964 MAC ROBERTSONS CASSIUS CLAY OLYMPIC QUIZ CARDS
    1965 BANCROFT TIDDLERS GIANTS OF SPORT CASSIUS CLAY
    1966 DC THOMSON HORNET CASSIUS CLAY GALLERY OF SPORT-HAND CUT
    1966 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT
    1967 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT
    1968 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT

    I have not seen one of them autographed although I'm sure they exist somewhere as Ali has been a prolific signer throughout his fame. I settled for the 1983 Topps M&M's autographed for my signed "rookie" collection since I believe it is his first Topps card.

    Hope that helps. (Sorry about the all caps but I cut and pasted the list from PSA)

    Mike >>



    Thanks, Mike! Do you know if Ali does TTM?

    Austin
    "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain" - Apostle Paul - Philippians 1:21
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Austin,

    The typical Ali TTM response is a small autopenned portrait.

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • austinchauaustinchau Posts: 360
    Just saw this on leland, it's probably the oldest rookie card of Ali -

    https://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=216&auctionid=811

    image
    "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain" - Apostle Paul - Philippians 1:21
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With boxing being very popular in the 50's and into the 60's, and smoking being popular then as well, one might have thought that some tobacco company in the US would have done a "boxing card" type series - probably would have been popular to do including of course a Cassius Clay card, but perhaps there were reasons it wasn't done, or maybe it was done and I'm not aware of it.
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When I was in the UK I saw several Clay/Ali tobacco style cards. I think the earliest was from the 1970's. I believe they were inserts in chips or tea boxes.
    Mike
  • KNAPPKNAPP Posts: 654 ✭✭✭
    The 1960 Hemmets is not a card. It is an insert that was intended to be put into an album. It has four photos on one sheet. It is impossible to cut each photo evenly due to the spacing and the design on the back. It's an early collectible, but not a card. Actually, I wrote to PSA to try to have it removed from the set registry. The first card is the Rekord Journal card from February 1962. They were printed on the front of a Swedish magazine. Just like the strip cards and the Wheaties cards they were intended to be cut from its original source. They were printed only for one week, because it was a weekly magazine. That series also has the card of Pele, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Carmen Basilio, etc. The next card is a 1963 Idoler. It has an orange background. I beleive it was a candy card. The 1964 Heinz card should also be removed from the PSA set registry, because ut doesn't even have a picture of Clay on the card. Don't waste your money on the 1971 Goldflake card from the UK. These cards are a dime a dozen, and a lot of fakes made it into holders. You can some of pictures at www.sportcollectorsdisplay.com Feel free to list some of your memroabilia. It only takes a few minutes.
    Thanks
    Knapp
    the KNAPP collection - specializing in boxing and wrestling
    Always looking to buy or trade for Andre the Giant autographs
    psacard.com/psasetregistry/non-sports/famous-personage/andre-giant-master-set/alltimeset/180400


  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2017 8:46PM
    I read the 51 Ringside article in this months SMR and it got me hoping PSA would do an article on Cassius Clay/Ali cards. For being one of the top 5 greatest and most recognizable athletes of all time he does not have much of a following in the card world. I understand that is primarily due to the fact that most people don't collect boxing cards... But I also think a big part of it is lack of awareness of his cards and no consensus rookie or key card. I bumped this thread to revive the rookie card debate. There really isn't a right answer because everyone's definition of rookie or trading card is different. Ill list the options that I think have a valid argument.. The images just came from google. The only card I own is the Lampo Collezioni in a psa 5


    1960 HEMMETS JOURNAL CASSIUS CLAY HAND CUT
    I don't have anything to add to what Knapp said. I agree 100% with him on this one. That being said it's the first "card" that is approved by PSA and it does present well in a slab.
    image
    image

    1962 SWEDISH CASSIUS CLAY REKORD JOURNAL-HAND CUT
    Again, Knapp provided all the background data on this "card". I have hard time considering it a true card but I understand the argument.
    image

    1964 MAC ROBERTSONS CASSIUS CLAY OLYMPIC QUIZ CARDS
    This is one his first traditional size cards that is cut by the manufacturer. This was issued in Australia as part of a quiz game. It looks like a card but is actually a game piece. I prefer it over the hand cut options but still not my top choice
    image

    1964 SIMON CHOCOLATES CASSIUS CLAY
    This his his first numbered, factory cut card that is part of an entire set. I believe these were issued in Spain. A board member has the entire album and will hopefully chime in with a scan of the page with Ali. I think this has the best case to be considered his rookie and I would say it technically is. I personally just don't like it because it's oversized.
    image

    1965 LAMPO CASSIUS CLAY (text back version Edizioni Lampo I Grandi Campioni)
    This is first pack issued, numbered, factory cut card. The cards were issued in Italy. Lampo was a fairly large manufacturer and produced several sets since the 60s. There are. 2 variations of this card. One with text on the back and one without. The text back is harder to find and IMO the best Ali card "rookie". I don't think the population report is 100% correct on these because when they first started grading these there were about 4 Edizioni Lampo and 10 Collezioni Lampo.. After a short while they merged the 2 and only listed the Collezioni but at some point started to list the Edizioni variation again.
    [IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/eagles33/Mobile Uploads/FullSizeR_zpsf2petpfh.jpg[/IMG]

    image

    Pack
    image
    image

    1966 PANINI CASSIUS CLAY CAMPIONI DELLO SPORT

    [IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/eagles33/Mobile Uploads/FullSizeR_zpsf2petpfh.jpg[/IMG]
    This is considered his first card from a major manufacturer. Although I would argue that Lampo was just as big in the 60s in Italy. The fact that panini is still a player in the industry does have some value. They also continued to produce some great boxing cards through to the late 80s
    image

    Valida back
    image
    Pack
    image
    I think this is the Idoler card that Knapp is speaking about. It's a great looking card but there is too little information about the card for me to really discuss it. This info was provided by knapp in another thread:

    "it was in a series with most music artists (POP), 84 cards in the series.
    They were sold around 1965 in a packet of cards, I think 8 or ten cards in a packet.
    There is no album what I know.
    This is a link to a web side with Swedish trading cards. Swedish Checklist
    You have to scroll down to TYPE 3"

    image

    The Barratt is the only Ali card that is overvalued IMO and isn't even in the rookie card discussion
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The recently discussed Dutch Gum cards w/ The Beatles & Clay pictured together are from 1964 or 1965 as well.


  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He has a numbered, factory cut, issued in packs, card from Argentina. PSA slabs them as 1962 but I believe they're 63 or 64. Either way, they would beat the Lampo to the punch for those particular qualifications.
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    Hey reggie what card are you referring to? I love learning about new foreign issues. Post a scan if you have one
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I won't be home for another week but can post a scan then. It's under boxing cards in the pop report as Po-Po Boxing Discs, which is a pretty lazy job of identifying it. While Po-Po is the name of a manufacturer of the time period, I've never seen anything that definitively identifies them as Po-Po. It's a multisport set and will have a name, I just haven't seen an album yet so don't know what it's called. There's a bunch of retired fighters in the set like Dempsey, Joe Louis, and others (I believe Carnera, Tunney, guys like that).
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    I was hoping it was this card from Argentina. It's a good looking and would be awesome if it was pre 1965. I'm not a huge fan of pogs or discs but its good for discussion. Do you know the year and set of this one. In guessing 1970s Crack but its a total guess

    image
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1979 Haces de Millones. Not sure of the manufacturer.
  • PubliusPublius Posts: 1,306 ✭✭


    << <i>1979 Haces de Millones. Not sure of the manufacturer. >>



    Ya, but what do YOU know about boxing? image
    My Steve Largent Master Set
  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know it involves a lot of rope jumping so it's not for me.
  • swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭
    I have always liked this issue...

    image


    Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
    - uncut


    Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    Thanks. I've been trying to find out what set that card is from for a while.
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Almost forgot. Here's the scan of the Argentina Clay.

    image
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1 million


    Maybe there will be a sucker born but sure seems like a very steep price.

  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    Ha. That's the same seller that offered a Mira rod laver to me for 7500. I guess you can ask whatever you want for your cards... I listed my Ali lampo for 4500.. I don't really want to sell it but I would be dumb not to sell it if someone really wants it for the right price
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • wrestlingcardkingwrestlingcardking Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭✭
    there is another lampo at auction so it will be interesting to see what the market is for the other PSA 5
    BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec
    Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    All this talk and nobody has mentioned the 1965 Perfetti Gum card. Seems to be, perhaps the rarest of his factory cut rookie singles..
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    I think the those are miss labeled and really from 1967. I'll try to dig up the info I found a while ago when I first saw one. There is one mislabeles as lampo by bgs on eBay now.
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: eagles33
    I think the those are miss labeled and really from 1967. I'll try to dig up the info I found a while ago when I first saw one. There is one mislabeles as lampo by bgs on eBay now.


    I looked, but couldn't find anything to that end. Would be interested to see what you have. I did find the following, each indicating the 1965 date. From what I've seen, it appears that these were produced in Holland by Monty Gum and then distributed in Italy under the Perfetti name.

    Cartophilic Index

    Beckett Article

    Same Issue Footballers (20)

    Set Background
  • scooter729scooter729 Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭
    The '65 Lampo PSA 5 ended last night at $946, about where I would've expected these days. (Maybe a bit low? I sold a PSA 4 for $510 last year, before the recent price spike in Ali cards.)



    Solid card and an argument can be made to it being a rookie (as the first pack issue).
  • wrestlingcardkingwrestlingcardking Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭✭
    I sold my Lampo Cassius Clay PSA 4 for $750 about a month ago.
    BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec
    Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    I was offered 1k for mine but didn't really want to let it go. I thought there might be some last minute bids on that one. I just picked up a 66 valida Ali that looks like it's in pretty good condition. Looking forward to getting it and get it slabbed
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: eagles33
    I was offered 1k for mine but didn't really want to let it go. I thought there might be some last minute bids on that one. I just picked up a 66 valida Ali that looks like it's in pretty good condition. Looking forward to getting it and get it slabbed


    Did you check my links for the '65 Perfetti? Curious what you think, if this may be a '67 issue?
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    I did.. I really don't know. I remember seeing an uncut panel of these for sale a few years ago. It was a 4 card panel. I'll try to dig up the links. It very well could be from 1965. I'm really not sure.
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • KNAPPKNAPP Posts: 654 ✭✭✭
    Just crossed this one over from SGC. I don't know why the Hemmets Journal 4 picture collectible is considered a card. The sheet was intended to be put in a ringed binder.

    [URL=http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/boxingandwrestling/media/Cassius Clay - 1965 Candy - PSA 8_zpskoajwbvt.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    the KNAPP collection - specializing in boxing and wrestling
    Always looking to buy or trade for Andre the Giant autographs
    psacard.com/psasetregistry/non-sports/famous-personage/andre-giant-master-set/alltimeset/180400


  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: eagles33
    I did.. I really don't know. I remember seeing an uncut panel of these for sale a few years ago. It was a 4 card panel. I'll try to dig up the links. It very well could be from 1965. I'm really not sure.


    Thanks no worries -- had seen it and was interested in possibly purchasing one, but you were the first to question its authenticity (Beckett, PSA and SGC all seem to think its a 1965 release) so wanted to be sure..

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: KNAPP

    Just crossed this one over from SGC. I don't know why the Hemmets Journal 4 picture collectible is considered a card. The sheet was intended to be put in a ringed binder.



    [URL=http://s1341.photobucket.com/u...8_zpskoajwbvt.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    Real good likeness of the champ. Nice card.



    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 636 ✭✭✭
    Agree, that's a beautiful card!
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭
    The 65 Swedish candy card is a great looking card. Is that card also referred to as Idoler? I really wish smr would do an article on his potential rookie cards. It would be great if they really took some time and investigated the different cards and provided some good information beyond what you can find by just googling. A similar article on Pele rookies would be great too. I know boxing and soccer cards aren't for everyone... But I bet most collectors would be interested in learning about Pele and Ali rookies.
    Scans of most of my Misc rookies can be found <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://forums.collectors.com/m...y&keyword1=Non%20major">here
  • KNAPPKNAPP Posts: 654 ✭✭✭
    Even though it wasn't pack issued, I consider this one Ali's rookie card. It was intended to be cut from the front of the magazine.

    [URL=http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/boxingandwrestling/media/Cassius Clay 1962 Rekord PSA 9_zpsugwh7r0q.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    the KNAPP collection - specializing in boxing and wrestling
    Always looking to buy or trade for Andre the Giant autographs
    psacard.com/psasetregistry/non-sports/famous-personage/andre-giant-master-set/alltimeset/180400


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