TOREX auction result, comparison of PCGS/ICCS 1921 50c

ajaan

The TOREX auction had two very scarce Canada 1921 50c this past weekend. Both graded VG8, one by PCGS, one by ICCS. Below are links to both coins with their selling prices:

ICCS 1921 50c

PCGS 1921 50c

I know which one I like better. What's your opinion?

theboz11

IMHO, no matter how rare they are, I would not pay that for either of them. I have unique items that are extremely high grade with values one tenth that.

TwoKopeiki

Which one was yours ?

ajaan

<< <i>Which one was yours ? >>


If only . . .


I do know the guy who consigned the PCGS coin though.

DoubleEagle59

and I know the guy who consigned the ICCS coin.

both in my opinion are not VG's, but what do I know?

DoubleEagle59

I forgot to add, as much as PCGS has tightened their grading with both US and Canadian coins and some say ICCS has gotten just 'slightly' easier with their grading in the past two years, the fact is that hardcore Canadian collectors still pay MORE for ICCS graded coins.

The only ones that dispute this fact are the Canadian dealers that have their display cases full of PCGS graded coins.

coinkat

Seeing these two examples helps me appreciate my general acceptance that I will never own this date

coinpictures

I know that ICCS is held in higher regard by hardcore Canadian collectors, but IMO the PCGS piece has much better eye appeal (as much as coins of that grade can *have* eye appeal).

ajaan

From the image, the ICCS coin looks cleaned to me. The PCGS coin has much more original surfaces IMO.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>From the image, the ICCS coin looks cleaned to me. The PCGS coin has much more original surfaces IMO. >>






Maybe Canadians drink plenty of Kool-aid too.


I'd still rather find a choice XF example in someone's junk box.

7Jaguars

Honestly that is just too much wear on either piece, regardless of the rarity. I think I just would not want less than an UNCLEANED VF.

1960NYGiants

Yeah, I watched that auction. And could not believe the price difference between the coins. The PCGS coin has better detail on the obv and vice versa for the reverse. I can't tell if either coin has or has not been cleaned from the photos - the PCGS coin looks like there is "something" on the surfaces while the ICCS coin is dull. I happen to agree with the assigned grades because the rims are complete and this date / series is known for weak strikes.

I had a few PCGS coins consigned to this auction and feel like I got hosed on them. Generally they sold for 1/3 to 1/2 of catalogue. Needless to say, I'm very disappointed with the results.

On the other hand, I also watched PCGS MS66 Red small cents go for 2 to 3 times high estimate. And some of the red large cents went for moon $ too. Go figure!

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>From the image, the ICCS coin looks cleaned to me. The PCGS coin has much more original surfaces IMO. >>




At VG08, cleaning and many other sins are forgiven in my book. The ICCS coin has much more pleasing appearance and more detail on the reverse, and the live bidders probably agreed to this. But I'm on the boz's side in a more general approach.

ajaan

<< <i>I had a few PCGS coins consigned to this auction and feel like I got hosed on them. >>


I had a couple PCGS coins also in the auction. I too am very, very disappointed with the results. I think it may be due to the economy and the decline in the C$. My coins sold for 1/2 catalogue.

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>

<< <i>

I had a few PCGS coins consigned to this auction and feel like I got hosed on them. Generally they sold for 1/3 to 1/2 of catalogue. Needless to say, I'm very disappointed with the results.

On the other hand, I also watched PCGS MS66 Red small cents go for 2 to 3 times high estimate. And some of the red large cents went for moon $ too. Go figure! >>

>>







<< <i>I had a couple PCGS coins also in the auction. I too am very, very disappointed with the results. I think it may be due to the economy and the decline in the C$. My coins sold for 1/2 catalogue.
>>





Sorry for the poor results.


The housing market for houses worth above $10 million is not only slowing down, but buyers pay a premium to obtain one. I guess the same is happening with coins on a different scale, top end coins are in high demand as a good form of investment, but all the rest is selling cheap and it's a buyer's market. Torex had the misfortune of being too close to the initial panick,I hope that the NYINC big auctions will give a more accurate picture of things to come.

docday2003

In the cases where the pcgs ms 66 coins went for much higher than expected, there was a bidding war going on between 2 determined bidders. Overall I think the coins went too cheap.

With regards to ICCS vs PCGS, I recently sent in a group of ICCS graded 5 cent pieces, and all of them ended up being graded harder by pcgs. The worst was a 1871 ICCS MS 65 7/7, which was graded by PCGS as MS 63! So PCGS has definitely gotten tighter in my experience, while ICCS is not all it's cracked up to be.

1960NYGiants

<< <i>In the cases where the pcgs ms 66 coins went for much higher than expected, there was a bidding war going on between 2 determined bidders. Overall I think the coins went too cheap.

With regards to ICCS vs PCGS, I recently sent in a group of ICCS graded 5 cent pieces, and all of them ended up being graded harder by pcgs. The worst was a 1871 ICCS MS 65 7/7, which was graded by PCGS as MS 63! So PCGS has definitely gotten tighter in my experience, while ICCS is not all it's cracked up to be. >>



Similar thing happened to me. I had purchased several ICCS 5c at the CNA. Sent them to PCGS for cross, only 2 did. Of the 4 that did not, I cut out the '43 Tombac (ICCS 65) and '49 (ICCS 64) and resubmitted raw, both came back 2 points lower. Ouch!

globalcoin

I just got back grades on 20 dupes. The best I did was on raws I got off ebay for chump money .

3 coins matched

8 coins crossed lower

Of the pennies 3 bodybagged for questionable color

I'll buy ICCS but only at a grade lower money 70%

I think I have a pretty good eye. PCGS has gotten stricter for sure.

ICCS is looser than NGC

ajaan

I have heard other people say ICCS has gotten very loose in their grading compared to a few years ago. But there still are many Canadian Kool-Aid drinkers out there.

I have had many ICCS coins coins come back lower by both PCGS and NGC. The last one was a Newfoundland 10c that was ICCS MS60, now is NGC AU58.

Icecube

Ah yes, the great ICCS vs PCGS debate.......I once tried a VERY expensive experiment. I cut almost 1000 iccs graded coins out of the flips and sent them in to PCGS and the results almost killed me. I spent close to $15K and I think I have them figured out now.

globalcoin

Trying to be positive in such negative times

ICCS is better than NNC

DoubleEagle59

I'll still take ICCS over PCGS anytime with regards to Canadian coins.

Why?

Mainly for three reasons:

1) Canadian collectors still pay more for ICCS coins than PCGS. This may change in the future, but currently, this is the case.

2) what many of you haven't talked about and this is the reason why I think PCGS and ICCS can differ in grading. My experience over the years has taught me that (in general sense) when grading a high grade coin, ICCS generally looks at the condition of the fields as the primary source for quality (high points secondary) whereas PCGS grades the high points primarily (and looks at the fields second).

Maybe this is because US coins are struck with a much higher relief than Canadian coins.

3) over the years, I've seen some horrible overgraded Canadian coins by PCGS. I mean two sometimes three grades. You never see that with ICCS>



Your thoughts?

docday2003

In my opinion there are alot of poorly graded ICCS coins...for example obvious PL's graded as MS. As you know, PL coins are usually quite common, while true business strike coins in high grade can be almost impossible to find. (Yes I know this is a generalization, and that there are exceptions to this).

Something else I've noticed is that ICCS is slacker on cleaned coins and altered surfaces. I have a gorgeous 1916 5 cent silver coins which was ICCS MS 65, but was body bagged by PCGS for altered surfaces. Unfortunately while in the ICCS holder it was hard to see the disturbances, but it is there. And the coin had retoned, so it was almost undetectable, but PCGS caught it, while ICCS did not.

Another area where PCGS and ICCS differ is on copper coins, where PCGS is way tougher on what they call red. Most ICCS reds are what PCGS would call RB.

Having said that, in my experience the area where PCGS is slacker is on circulated coins, where they tend to be a bit more liberal in what they call XF/EF as compared to ICCS. But this doesn't really affect me, since I collect mainly high grade coins.

globalcoin

Canadian collectors DO NOT PAY MORE at the big auctions for ICCS. Last Torex and Heritage are good examples (search heritages auction archives it's fun). Oh and Belzberg went with PCGS, that says something.

Take a look at the cents from the last torex. The PCGS red coins scored more money hands down, the 30 something in 66 red comes to mind

ICCS's idea of RED is a joke. 50% qualifies, give me a break

They also can't seem to spot artificial color and they don't spot cleaning very well. If "Canadian collectors" want poor quality grading and that is elemental to the Canadian collecting experience by all means go with ICCS. The older grading standards were tougher, but not anymore

But being a pretty serious Canadian collector myself, I've stated why I don't like them

Oh and Belzberg went with PCGS, that says something

Not to mention most of the BIG coins (early 50s) in Torex were crossed

DoubleEagle59

<< <i>Canadian collectors DO NOT PAY MORE at the big auctions for ICCS. Last Torex and Heritage are good examples (search heritages auction archives it's fun). Oh and Belzberg went with PCGS, that says something.

Take a look at the cents from the last torex. The PCGS red coins scored more money hands down, the 30 something in 66 red comes to mind

ICCS's idea of RED is a joke. 50% qualifies, give me a break

They also can't seem to spot artificial color and they don't spot cleaning very well. If "Canadian collectors" want poor quality grading and that is elemental to the Canadian collecting experience by all means go with ICCS. The older grading standards were tougher, but not anymore

But being a pretty serious Canadian collector myself, I've stated why I don't like them

Oh and Belzberg went with PCGS, that says something

Not to mention most of the BIG coins (early 50s) in Torex were crossed >>



I think if you took an average of the last 5 years of auctions, there would be no doubt that Canadian collectors prefer ICCS.

I totally agree with you an Copper. PCGS is much, much stricter on designating the 'RED' classification.

I totally ignored this fact, because quite frankly, I don't collect Copper and it never entered my mind when I posted earlier.

Regarding Bodybags, at least ICCS when they bodybag a coin, will do so everytime if you resubmit the coin again and again. With PCGS, you never know what's going to happen. PCGS is very inconsistent with their bodybags, because I believe they are trying to be too 'exact' with their grading and identification of altered coins.

You take a look at a lot of earlier ms65 or ms66 toned PCGS coins, be it Victoria, Edward or GeorgeV. These coins have many marks 'under the toning' and would most likely grade 1 or 2 grades lower if done at ICCS.

Also, regarding the prices again, look at silver dollars from 1953 to 1967. PCGS ms65's don't come close to ICCS ms65's (in quality or prices realized).

In summary, PCGS is closing the gap quickly on ICCS. Also, there are areas that PCGS is much better than ICCS and ICCS much better than PCGS.

If I could send out any 'red flags' I would say watch ICCS when it comes to Copper and watch PCGS graded coins for early toned high grade material.

PBRat

Regarding Bodybags, at least ICCS when they bodybag a coin, will do so everytime if you resubmit the coin again and again.

I've stayed out of this discussion until now, but the above statement is completely rediculous.

DoubleEagle59

<< <i>Regarding Bodybags, at least ICCS when they bodybag a coin, will do so everytime if you resubmit the coin again and again.

I've stayed out of this discussion until now, but the above statement is completely rediculous. >>



Why is this ridiculous, please explain?

coinkat

I think ICCS would be taken alittle more serious if they would actually use a slab.

globalcoin

With the amount of bodybags I've gotten back from ICCS to PCGS crosses I didn't think that ICCS Bodybagged coins at all.

At first I just assumed that coins in ICCS holders were good but now I've learned. I DON"T TRUST THEM

A slab would be nice too.

PBRat

<< <i>

<< <i>Regarding Bodybags, at least ICCS when they bodybag a coin, will do so everytime if you resubmit the coin again and again.

I've stayed out of this discussion until now, but the above statement is completely rediculous. >>



Why is this ridiculous, please explain? >>



Every time? I've seen ICCS coins identified as Cleaned. When resubmitted to ICCS, the Cleaned notation sometimes disappears.

globalcoin

Let me just say that when I finish Canada 1858-1967 and it goes to auction in the nice catalog I will not go anywhere near ICCS. It will be PCGS all the way and everybody will clamour for them like the Belzberg, Norweb and Pittman coins.



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