SLQ "Insert Label Buyers™" Beware... Time To Get Edjumacated or Bleed!
Broadstruck
Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
OMG seeing stuff like this just drives me nutz and to someone who is buying purely just based on the TPG service designation your gonna get hurt! 
What's wrong with this 1920-D
Nice Description
one of the most difficult deliveries within the SLQ series and rarely offered, the 20-D is well-respected among specialists as a serious KEY to the series - full-head details are fully apparent particularly in the 3-leaves and hairwaves; the virtually clean lustrous surfaces display incredibly beautiful rich original gold color adding the splendid eye appeal of this conservatively graded representative - a wonderful find for the specialist
What's wrong with this 1920-D
Nice Description
one of the most difficult deliveries within the SLQ series and rarely offered, the 20-D is well-respected among specialists as a serious KEY to the series - full-head details are fully apparent particularly in the 3-leaves and hairwaves; the virtually clean lustrous surfaces display incredibly beautiful rich original gold color adding the splendid eye appeal of this conservatively graded representative - a wonderful find for the specialist
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
0
Comments
Oh...............and congrats on 8000
According to Official A.N.A. Grading Standards
for United States Coins, a coin must adhere to the following
standards to be considered a candidate for the FH designation:
For Type I coins, a coin must exhibit:
- well defined details in hair
- a complete hairline along face
- a visible eyebrow
- a rounded cheek
For Type II coins, a coin must exhibit:
- three well defined leaves in hair
- a complete hairline along brow and across face
- a small indentation at ear
<< <i>are you talking about the rim bump? >>
Thanks not a rim bump it's an excess chunk of white acrylic.
so it's not as bad as listening to a sleazebag dealer say "FH!" and telling you to go scratch when you rely on the assessment.
As for assigned grade and FH designation, I think NGC probably has a slightly different set of parameters or "guidelines" which gives a little liberty that PCGS won't bend on (I'm guessing, and just trying to be objective here so that others won't let you have it too cheap
This could be a great buy for the right person. Sometimes it's just about having that empty space filled that we call a full head.
If something is missing between the ears, it ain't no skin off my nose.
~Counterpoint~
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>The coin looks weakly struck (worn die). A little mushy, if you prefer. Even the date has that look of not being fully struck. There is flatness and some lack of detail.
As for assigned grade and FH designation, I think NGC probably has a slightly different set of parameters or "guidelines" which gives a little liberty that PCGS won't bend on (I'm guessing, and just trying to be objective here so that others won't let you have it too cheap
This could be a great buy for the right person. Sometimes it's just about having that empty space filled that we call a full head.
If something is missing between the ears, it ain't no skin off my nose.
~Counterpoint~ >>
I'll accept your debate!
Actually the strike is normal of a 1920-D as this date does normally have issues in the digits on the date.
As far as NGC having slightly different parameters on what qualifies as a FH as seen here is not a textbook standard and even if market acceptable as per NGC it isn't to the consumer base who specialize in this series.
So for the average Joe looking to add a better date Full Head example in MS63 the PCGS Values just as a price point are $865 in MS63 and $1625 for a MS63FH. This example is priced as per the dealer listing at $2150 (Good Price is a True FH) which is a huge premium for a Head that just doesn't cut the mustard as it has absolutely no hairline brow definition and actually blends smooth into Ms. Liberty's face. I'm not even going to bother with the dot as an earhole!
Jay Cline in his latest revisions of his book on the series does mention different types of heads, FH, Super FH, and Ultimate FH as I recall... yet no other series such as Mercury Dimes, FBL Franklins, etc. has exceptions as it's either FSB or it's Not.
This example doesn't even meet Cline's minimum qualifications for a basic FH, and no this example should not be purchased as a filler...
unless your just a Label Buyer™!
<< <i>As a rule, I do not buy coins from sellers who do not identify who they are. >>
Sure he does. His name is Steve.
peacockcoins
<< <i>As a rule, I do not buy coins from sellers who do not identify who they are. >>
The seller identity is on the bottom of the EDUCATIONAL PAGE of the site.
<< <i>
<< <i>As a rule, I do not buy coins from sellers who do not identify who they are. >>
The seller identity is on the bottom of the EDUCATIONAL PAGE of the site. >>
Okay, well, it should not be a Where's Waldo exercise to find out who he is.
<< <i>Okay, well, it should not be a Where's Waldo exercise to find out who he is.
Standing Liberty Quarters - A discussion of "full head" vs. "full shield" coins
Still Don't Own A SLQ Yet
Maybe we can start getting these in PCGS and NGC slabs at WalMart pretty soon.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Well, I guess after this thread, this coin will sit on the guys website for years. However, thanks for the discussion about the COIN.
Maybe we can start getting these in PCGS and NGC slabs at WalMart pretty soon.
This thread wasn't about knocking the dealers inventory or the TPG.
It's more a heads up for the end consumer/collector to wake up and know what your doing prior to whipping out your wallet.
Steve is a good guy as I have done one transaction with him which was 100% flawless on a SLQ that meet my standards.
I'll just say there is an intention for objection and dissension.
This thread proves that. Without it, we cannot find the whole truth.
Don't get a full head, though
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The initial impression to me is an older holdered coin, very fresh looking, with good luster and pretty clean surfaces for only a 63. There is a touch of stacking friction along the leg line which is pretty typical. The shield and rivets are well struck which is usually not the case on most of the early D and S mints. NGC could have graded it MS64, or MS63 or MS63FH. Maybe they felt that MS63FH was more indicative of the value than a MS64.
While I don't specialize in SLQ's I've seen enough of them to know that the quality of FH is all over the spectrum, esp on the early mint marks. Those coins are just not going to look like a 1919-P or a 1930-P Full Head. And if they do, prepare to pay well over going published FH rates. While this 20-D may not make my wishes for a pure FH piece because of the lack of a perfect facial line - it is certainly within NGC's criteria and maybe PCGS's as well. If it fails to meet one's personal standards then discount it accordingly. It might be buyable, or it might not be. A tiny dot for an earhole is not a bad thing to me (unless poked with a scribe). I get more concerned about a stretched out looking "scratch-like thing" that represents the ear hole....that comes about from less than full striking - one step away from a no ear hole coin.
I recall cracking out an NGC MS66FH 1923 quarter years back. The coin was an original flawless gem with nice appeal...looked like a MS67 to me. But it had a somewhat weak facial separation. Clearly the coin was not a no brainer 100% FH but each service gave it both a FH rating. I had no problems selling the coin eventually even if it might have only been a 90-95% technical head and didn't meet my personal standards for a 100% no question full head.
This situation is no different than FB Mercs where I see coins with almost no discernible center split other than the faintest little knife-like "scratch" called FSB.....from both services. In fact I rarely if ever see early mint-marked Mercs that have an honest and deep band separation, yet the market eagerly buys and sells them as full bands.
Personally I would not make that stretch.
If we went by a true FULL strike standard almost none of the currently graded FB or FH coins in the late teens to mid-20's would qualify. Honestly, they should look like a 1930 quarter if we want to get techincal. No different than a heraldic eagle bust dollar or half should have no rub and full luster to be graded uncirculated (when's the last time you saw one of those in a 60-65 holder?).
I like the coin for whatever it's worth but I'd probably want to view that lower facial line a tad closer in hand before plunking down MS63FH money. Fwiw Jay Cline is a big fan of this date in FH (see April 11, 2008 CDN) and cites AU58 FH's going for $1300. That would tend to suggest that you're not going to be able to buy a MS63 100% FH for $1600. Cline also notes that this date often comes poorly struck on the lower torso, on the eagle's breast feathers, etc. Maybe this coin is superior enough in that dept that it honestly deserved a FH monicker even if the head was only 93%. The coin certainly looks well struck on the obverse. Would you rather have a flat leg, flat date, missing rivets, but a slightly better hair separation....for your FH coin? There are always tradeoffs. That's how the specialists make money on these. Let's also realize that there are plenty of degrees of separation from a 90% head coin to a 100% head coin. Somewhere within that spread is what trades for FH money. Is it a 93% head? 95% head? 98% head? We all know that something less than 100% would earn the FH rating. If it were not the case, then very few, if any 20-D SLQ's would rate a FH....probably only 10-50% of the ones already holdered. I just have a gut feeling that I should think twice about this 20-d before tossing it into the junk heap of also-rans. I could be dead wrong.
Just because a grading guide says something, doesn't mean it is written in stone. In that respect B&D grading requires full denticles on all Good-VG bust coins (not realistic). Some guides require a full Liberty on seated coins to make Fine (not always realistic). Those same guides also require UNC bust coins to have NO wear...when's the last time you saw a slabbed MS61-62 bust anything that had no wear and full luster...and wasn't cleaned?
I'm not a fan of market grading by any means and can grade stupidly tough as the next guy (lol). But sometimes we may have to be realistic on grading. I recall buying a pair of MS62 ANACS bust halves out of the 2002 FUN auction. It "killed" me to buy a pair of coins with obvious wear on the wingtips. These weren't mint state! But I loved the color and 100% full field luster with essentially no hits...and knew they stacked up well against what I had been seeing in 63-64 holders. They both came back NGC MS64 on resubmital. And I still liked them in the 64 holders too. Wish I didn't sell them, esp that pretty 1824 double profile.
roadrunner
I looked at the PCGS grading guy to refresh my memory. One picture of a Type 2 FH SLQ has a great set of sprigs, a sharp upper hairline but still a tad weak on the lower hairline, and the ear hole is a long slice. I'd call it 95-98% for lack of a better term. The other Type 2 photographed shows all the details but they are all a tad "faint" without that 3-d look you'd expect to see on a 100% coin. The hairline is clearly there all the way, but maybe it could have more depth to it. I'd call that 95-98% as well. This is just my interpretation of what I see. Neither photo is a hands down killer full head, and maybe that's what PCGS intended.
On the opposite page are the FB mercs. While the one designated with FB clearly is all there, the one below it is called a "near miss." What I too often see in "FB" early mercs are the "near miss" types. That is if you stare long enough you'll convince yourself there is a tiny split even though from a few inches away it looks to have flat spots. Those aren't for me whether it's a 24-S or a 24-P.
roadrunner
There's really no difference between the two detail wise.
We'd all like to find "ultimate full heads" but they are almost nonexistant.
Here's my old 20-D:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
f/h doesn't apply to below ms examples
<< <i>definite rub line on her knee and leg...au58
f/h doesn't apply to below ms examples >>
lasvegasteddy, the scan leaves a lot to be desired as I too thought I saw friction travel on Ms. Liberty's head, cheek, and neck. As far as the shin roll friction or stacking marks they are market acceptable and seen on examples up to MS66. On some TPG MS67's when you search auction archives many are dipped and it's not easily seen on a brilliant white coin.
yup i would of been fooled then as that scan was clear and present to me
i know true tell is in hand with slq's and walkers
sweet slq in any event and thanks for the heads up as oneday i'll have a 21 looken like it
Below is a AU58FH example for comparison...
Pics Left = OTT lighting / Right = Halogen lighting.
The 1916's have an even mushier head and therefore have to be even more lenient when handing out the full heads. Still, most of the 1916's in 63 or better, are graded as FH's.
I guess it depends on a lot of factors that only experience teaches.
roadrunner
<< <i>I'd rather collect a 'just missed it' example without the premium for the designation, thank you very much. >>
And...IIRC, QDB made a convincing argument that coins should be designated as Full Strike and that the entire coin should be considered...not just Full Head, Full Steps, Full Bands, Full Bell Lines, or any other arbitrary part of a coin that can be misleading.
Thought that would help.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
from the pix of the topic piece-
i see it as an AU-58 with enough of a head to garner the F.H. designation
the full head debate is similar to the Full Bell Line issue............ a plethora of people's opinions
<< <i>I'd rather collect a 'just missed it' example without the premium for the designation, thank you very much. >>
Smart Cookie TDN!
Here's a thread of 7 MS64 1920-S SLQ's I did a while ago... 6 where FH designated.
Link
#5 I feel is sitting in HA's post auction buys right now at just under $8K.
Mike
<< <i>Here's one of the best web based SLQ articles I have ever read... link below
Standing Liberty Quarters - A discussion of "full head" vs. "full shield" coins >>
I couldn't agree more with most of the things stated in the article. The problem is that "full head" is such an entrenched term-like a "full horn" on the Buffalo 5c-that things are unlikely to change. I have some Numismatic Scrapbook magazines from the World war II era that lists SLQ with the full head designation, so the term has been used for a long, long time.
coin.
seriously... who looks at the head first?
:-P
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's one of the best web based SLQ articles I have ever read... link below
Standing Liberty Quarters - A discussion of "full head" vs. "full shield" coins >>
I couldn't agree more with most of the things stated in the article. The problem is that "full head" is such an entrenched term-like a "full horn" on the Buffalo 5c-that things are unlikely to change. I have some Numismatic Scrapbook magazines from the World war II era that lists SLQ with the full head designation, so the term has been used for a long, long time. >>
I've also seen the term Full Head used in auction catalogs from the 1940's and 50's yet the full text book description of what details are needed for a SLQ to be considered a FH from my research wasn't found until Keith Kelman's book on Standing Liberty Quarters was published in 1976.
What's wrong with this NGC FH designated SLQ
<< <i>Since NGC is the offical grading service of the ANA you'd think they would abide by the following...
According to Official A.N.A. Grading Standards
for United States Coins, a coin must adhere to the following
standards to be considered a candidate for the FH designation:
For Type I coins, a coin must exhibit:
- well defined details in hair
- a complete hairline along face
- a visible eyebrow
- a rounded cheek
For Type II coins, a coin must exhibit:
- three well defined leaves in hair
- a complete hairline along brow and across face
- a small indentation at ear >>
Is the original pic even a NGC holder? I doesn't look like the ones I have.
<< <i>Since NGC is the offical grading service of the ANA you'd think they would abide by the following... >>
One would think so but truthfully NGC abides by it's own standards and is the official grading service of the ANA ONLY because they were willing to cut the check! Other than the advertising benefits, they probably dont give a hoot about the ANA standards just as you pointed out.
<< <i>Since NGC is the offical grading service of the ANA you'd think they would abide by the following...
According to Official A.N.A. Grading Standards
for United States Coins, a coin must adhere to the following
standards to be considered a candidate for the FH designation:
>>
NGC uses their own, unpublished "market grading" standards. (as does PCGS)
The "Official Grading Service of the ANA" tag is something sold to the highest bidder.