Pedigrees do count,
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
but they cannot carry a crappy coin. That's what I learned firsthand at the Scotsman Eliasberg auction. There were numerous examples of decent but unspectacular coins selling for significant premiums. There were plenty of examples of problem coins that went begging, even some of the better date ones.
For those who do not care about pedigrees, that's fine. Just realize that there are plenty of people that do, and in a rough market, it might make a difference to a potential buyer.
For those who do not care about pedigrees, that's fine. Just realize that there are plenty of people that do, and in a rough market, it might make a difference to a potential buyer.
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I also saw a number of pedigreed Liberty Nickels, most of which had dip residue, and one was even baked. I've also seen a number of pedigreed Barber Halves. These nickel and many of the halves were uninspiring coins which were pedigreed. I did not want any of those coins in my collection at any price.
So, I guess where I am coming from is that just as many people buy the plastic and not the coin, some buy the pedigree and not the coin, as well. The coin itself doesn't seem to matter to them a great deal.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>What are examples of pedigrees that bring a premium in the market? >>
The Big Three™:
Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett
Each specialty has its own pedigrees of importance, as well.
I am not talking about recently thrown together registry collections that are built for quick profit. I am talking about the generational and multigenerational collections.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>but they cannot carry a crappy coin. >>
This part bears repeating.
<< <i>Souldn't the title of this thread be "Some pedigrees do count"? >>
It's my thread, and I can title it any way I please.
"...collectors DO care about pedigrees and there is still no pedigree that is more magic for gold collectors than that of Louis Eliasberg. There were dozens of collectors in the audience at the sale and bidding online who were willing to, say, pay $1,500 for a coin that was probably only “worth” $1,000 to $1,200. And I can absolutely see their point. As a collector myself, I find pedigree to be extremely important and a coin that combines good eye appeal and rarity (or at least scarcity) with an interesting provenance is pretty irrestible to me. "
I have a hard time quibbling with that. Note that his two Eliasberg purchases sold immediately upon listing them (yesterday).
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i> Note that his two Eliasberg purchases sold immediately upon listing them (yesterday). >>
Did they sell, or have they gone out on approval?
Fixed.
<< <i>It's the coin stupid! It's not about pedigrees or even "first strikes" but dealers making major bucks will sure promote them as the best thing since "sliced bread". I was looking at some of the Binnion collection and was amased at the prices being given for those silver dollars you could have purchased in a coin shop for $12 bucks. >>
Binion is not a pedigree for a carefully assembled collection. It's the name of a hoard. There's a huge difference.
How is the Pittman pedigree viewed in the market?
I personally put the Pittman pedigree a notch below the Big Three™, but it is an important and desirable one, nonetheless.
<< <i>How is the Pittman pedigree viewed in the market? >>
I'll give you my opinion. John Pittman owned a number of great coins, and many great rarities. His sales were very important events.
That said, coins with the Pittman pedigree on the slab should be looked at carefully on a case-by-case basis to make sure you agree with the grade. Just like coin pedigreed to other famous collectors.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Many pedigrees will add a premium to a coin's value. For the more attractive coins the premium will be greater than their unattractive counterparts. However, some pedigrees will not add value to a coin, and some pedigrees may actually decrease the value on some coins. Experience will teach you which pedigrees are valuable and which ones are not. >>
In the end the coin as always will stand on it's own merits... The motive for paying a premium is individual, some wish to own a piece of numismatic history that belonged to one of the heavy weights, some may associate with the location of the collection or hoard, and some may see it as marketing ploy to a larger profit margin but to destroy the record of the pedigree is just like burning history books because you don't like the content.... You're not changing history .. just making it harder for future generations to know the truth..
just my opinion
I'm not nearly as experienced as most around here -- I was not actively collecting when the Big Three™ auctioned their coins. However, in the past five years I've had the chance to view a number of pedigreed collections being sold, and I must admit that overall any "premium" associated with a pedigree was more than made up for by the gross overgrading done by the TPG slabbing them. I can site examples, but won't....
In short, while pedigrees and the provenance that comes along with them are great, one has to be VERY careful when evaluating TPG slabbed coins with "big names" on them.
All IMHO, based on my own personal experience only, and recognizing that the opinions and experiences of others may vary....Mike
I prefer my coin for what it is. Sure, if I can get a top pedigree coin for the same price as a non-pedigree, I would love it.
For me, though, since a top pedigree coin is likely to cost more, I will take a great example of a coin without it and spend less
(sorry...I am just a logical sort of guy....the type that doesn't need designer clothing nor pedigrees)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm glad that some people like the pedigrees so much.
I prefer my coin for what it is. Sure, if I can get a top pedigree coin for the same price as a non-pedigree, I would love it.
For me, though, since a top pedigree coin is likely to cost more, I will take a great example of a coin without it and spend less
(sorry...I am just a logical sort of guy....the type that doesn't need designer clothing nor pedigrees) >>
Because collectors and dealers alike are so damn lazy finding a great pedigreed coin doesn't have to cost more at all, with a lot of research and a little digging you can find one and pay zero premium, trust me Bochiman I know
Yeah, but again, time is money. I really am not the type to care about names/pedigrees/brands that much. It would have to be falling into my lap for me to worry about it.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It's still the coin your buying folks, not the name on the tag or doily pattern on the label. But I have to admit there is something special about a coin you knew once belonged to John Clapp, James A. Stack or Reed Hawn.
john
<< <i>
<< <i>A pedigree is a desirable thing if it is from one of the collections that matter... you guys know the ones that do. The issue is the coin, if its just so so or downright ugly it's not even worth buying at any level. Many of the Eliasberg coins were considered to be overgraded and maxed out, many were re-holdered later without the pedigree. Of course grade inflation being what is is, (or alleged to be
It's still the coin your buying folks, not the name on the tag or doily pattern on the label. But I have to admit there is something special about a coin you knew once belonged to John Clapp, James A. Stack or Reed Hawn.
john >>
and that is why when I buy an unattributed Eliasberg I am only interested in the ones that were from Clapp/Chapman. They have a phenomenal look to them, tremendous eyeappeal, great colors, totally original and unmessed with and naturally toned. They typically stand out and if you know what to look for you can't miss it. >>
Now see there? You are talking about the coin moreso than the pedigree
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>but they cannot carry a crappy coin. That's what I learned firsthand at the Scotsman Eliasberg auction. There were numerous examples of decent but unspectacular coins selling for significant premiums. There were plenty of examples of problem coins that went begging, even some of the better date ones.
For those who do not care about pedigrees, that's fine. Just realize that there are plenty of people that do, and in a rough market, it might make a difference to a potential buyer. >>
I wonder what crappy coins without a pedigree are worth?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Naftzger large cents will be worth more properly identified. Reiver rarities, as well.
All of the above were serious collectors. There are more serious collectors, both past and present, and their coins will be worth more when their collections are sold.
The bottom line, regardless of the grade on the holder vs. the grade in the catalogue, keep the pedigrees!!
Perception of quality may change, but famous rarities will always be known by their most famous owners, IMHO.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Having said that, there are terrific coins owned by some important collectors and for those that find what they like with the pedigree... well that is great
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Never knew he was into world coins.
<< <i>I like pedigrees, but I am not a slave to them so I won't pay a high premium for them >>
My feelings exactly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But things are never equal. By far, the most important factor is the coin itself. In real estate, it's all about location. In coins, it's all about eye appeal.
Several years ago, I had just started collecting again and was fascinated with pedigrees and being able to own coins that once belonged to collectors I had read about as a child. I bought a Seated Liberty Quarter with the Eliasberg pedigree...unfortunately, I focused on the pedigree and not on the coin. It was a dog. It was ugly with dark, mottled toning. I eventually realized my mistake. It took a while but I was finally able to sell the coin...at a loss.
Pedigrees can add a fun and interesting dimension to a collection....but it's the coin, not the pedigree that really matters.
Stated another way, the pedigree is the icing on the cake, not the whole cake.
<< <i>I think that the pedigree of serious collectors add value to coins. There are additional ones to the Big Three, some of which include Bass, Pittman and Ford.
Naftzger large cents will be worth more properly identified. Reiver rarities, as well.
All of the above were serious collectors. There are more serious collectors, both past and present, and their coins will be worth more when their collections are sold.
The bottom line, regardless of the grade on the holder vs. the grade in the catalogue, keep the pedigrees!!
Perception of quality may change, but famous rarities will always be known by their most famous owners, IMHO. >>
We'll find out if the highlighted line above is true soon enough.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.