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holy cow, silver on kitco dropped to 9.67 right now!

mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
Whoa! dropped but physical silver still high!

Gold is almost near high 700s and plat is dropping too!
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Comments

  • SmittysSmittys Posts: 9,876 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I made a mistake and bought some paper silver and am taking a major lose on it,
    However the physical silver I have at the shop is still making me money,
    If I ever get out of the paper at close to par, I'll NEVER I mean NEVER buy paper silver again
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    sorry about the loss Smittys. I don't ever plan on buying paper silver. Been warned by others and now by you
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  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭
    the "olivia" market is staying stong and getting stronger. i don't put much eye on the COMEX lately because the paper is so far from reality.

  • SmittysSmittys Posts: 9,876 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just bought another 1000 maple leaves when it was down 1.00
    No more PAPER
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    Opec is putting a emergency meeting together to agree to cut supply and force oil prices higher. Original meeting was Nov 18th now changed to Oct 24th.
    If their plan works silver will probably also go up as the price of oil does.
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    Who else thinks that the ETF's are having a hard time buying silver at present prices? The paper silver price is far different from the physical market. It will be a big kick in the pants if these funds don't have the actual silver on hand and everyone loses their hard earned money. It makes me wonder what the delay is between the buys and sells of an ETF since you just can't take delivery the same day in a physical metal.
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭


    << <i>The paper silver price is far different from the physical market. >>



    Perhaps if you are looking at retail prices for one oz items. That is sort of liking judging the strength of the automobile market by looking only at Prius sales. 1,000 oz bars are available at Kitco for about 3.6% over spot.

    CG
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The paper silver price is far different from the physical market. >>



    Perhaps if you are looking at retail prices for one oz items. That is sort of liking judging the strength of the automobile market by looking only at Prius sales. 1,000 oz bars are available at Kitco for about 3.6% over spot.

    CG >>



    That's cash only:

    We do not accept C.O.D.’s, credit cards, direct deposits, e-mail money transfers or third-party checks as methods of payment. Due to new Anti-Money Laundering legislation and the Patriot Act in the United States and recognized worldwide, Kitco can no longer send or receive third-party payments. Payments can only be sent to individuals listed in your Kitco account.

    Then add the shipping charges:




    The cost to ship your order to destinations in the US and Canada is a flat rate of $30 plus insurance. Insurance charges are $4 per $1000 to insure gold, platinum and palladium and $24 per $1000 to insure silver.



    Flat Rate of $30 + insurance (silver $24 per $1000) so add almost $300

    Not to mention name brand bars are a key- Most third party bars sell for a discount due to purity concerns

    Another point, when can they deliver you the PM's?

    Please note: Due to current conditions, your order fulfillment and/or shipment is being affected by delays experienced by our suppliers. Certain popular products are currently out of stock; please click here to view a list of items we normally carry. All such products will once again appear on our web page when their inventories reach adequate levels. Due to high order volumes, you may also experience shipment delays from our vaults in Canada and/or the USA. We want to assure you that we are working hard to mitigate this temporary situation. Kitco Inc. appreciates your patience and understanding, and looks forward to serving you in the best possible manner
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The paper silver price is far different from the physical market. >>



    Perhaps if you are looking at retail prices for one oz items. That is sort of liking judging the strength of the automobile market by looking only at Prius sales. 1,000 oz bars are available at Kitco for about 3.6% over spot. >>


    True. I suppose a lot of the people who fear paper assets may be wanting hard gold and silver to use as barter in transactions if it all hits the fan. Using a 1,000-ounce bars in barter isn't really all that practical unless you're bartering for a car or a house.
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The paper silver price is far different from the physical market. >>



    Perhaps if you are looking at retail prices for one oz items. That is sort of liking judging the strength of the automobile market by looking only at Prius sales. 1,000 oz bars are available at Kitco for about 3.6% over spot. >>


    True. I suppose a lot of the people who fear paper assets may be wanting hard gold and silver to use as barter in transactions if it all hits the fan. Using a 1,000-ounce bars in barter isn't really all that practical unless you're bartering for a car or a house. >>




    And prepare to fill out tax forms for the IRS when you sell your items
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
    The question is whether there is a silver shortage, not what the shipping charges are for taking delivery of 1,000 oz of silver, or the payment methods and cash reporting requirements or fears of Armageddon on the part of some people. The spot prices and futures are based on the price of the metal per se based on supply and demand. Shipping, storage, insurance etc. have always been added costs to the buyer.

    Edit to add: What appears to have happended is that the fabricators did not accurately anticpate the demand for small size bars. So there could be a shortage of small sized bars but not a shortage of silver itself, which is sitting in 1,000 oz bars.

    CG
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The question is whether there is a silver shortage, not what the shipping charges are for taking delivery of 1,000 oz of silver, or the payment methods and cash reporting requirements or fears of Armageddon on the part of some people. The spot prices and futures are based on the price of the metal per se based on supply and demand. Shipping, storage, insurance etc. have always been added costs to the buyer.

    Edit to add: What appears to have happended is that the fabricators did not accurately anticpate the demand for small size bars. So there could be a shortage of small sized bars but not a shortage of silver itself, which is sitting in 1,000 oz bars.

    CG >>



    My point is you go to a B&M shop the quoted price is for the product in hand. You must add the shipping charges to the total price so the 3.6% above melt is bogus since it adds almost 3% for the product in hand.

    As far as what appears to be fabricated, we can all guess but delivery taking months sure could be due to high demand as claimed or there's a real shortage and they are playing the COMEX markets for future deliveries.


    My big concern for companies like Kitco is if the paper maket fails will you get the silver or even your money back? Kitco has pooled silver/gold accounts are they backed or just playing the paper market? If they don't have the PM's to back the pooled accounts then they will go belly up because of their lack of assests and a bunch of worthless paper contracts.
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭


    << <i>


    My big concern for companies like Kitco is if the paper maket fails will you get the silver or even your money back? Kitco has pooled silver/gold accounts are they backed or just playing the paper market? If they don't have the PM's to back the pooled accounts then they will go belly up because of their lack of assests and a bunch of worthless paper contracts. >>



    my big concern in this pool would be if it shot up in a week to $35 and everybody wanted to sell at once...
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>My big concern for companies like Kitco is if the paper maket fails will you get the silver or even your money back? Kitco has pooled silver/gold accounts are they backed or just playing the paper market? If they don't have the PM's to back the pooled accounts then they will go belly up because of their lack of assests and a bunch of worthless paper contracts. >>

    I agree. The only way I'd consider trusting a "pool' is if I *knew* that ever single ounce of metal purchased from the pool was backed by at least one physically controlled ounce of that metal in storage.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,270 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As far as I'm concerned, anything that trades under ten bucks an ounce is not a precious metal, which makes this thread OT.



    image
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As far as I'm concerned, anything that trades under ten bucks an ounce is not a precious metal, which makes this thread OT. >>

    Sell me a bunch of one-ounce silver bullion rounds for $9.99 a piece and I'll agree with you. image
  • bumanchubumanchu Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As far as I'm concerned, anything that trades under ten bucks an ounce is not a precious metal, which makes this thread OT.



    image >>




    So, you are probably going to waste a lot of precious time from day to day flip flopping every other day as the price goes above and falls below ten bucks....what a shame!image
    And I ain't lying this time.
  • sfs2002usasfs2002usa Posts: 861 ✭✭✭
    Yeah! I just chekd this out and I'm surprised. Time to get some nice eagles!
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Yeah! I just chekd this out and I'm surprised. Time to get some nice eagles! >>

    The problem is that when you can find them, they'll probably still be north of $15.
  • SLV is simply the WORST thing to ever happen to real silver investors.

    It's basically fractional banking and counterfeiting at the same time.

    No, don't even try to tell me or anyone else that they actually have the physical silver to back their fraudulant paper.

    If they did, they would be buying up their paper and selling their physical.

    They'd turn a 50+ % profit overnight.

    They aren't, so it's clear they don't really have the physical assets.

    One day the paper silver holders will repeat what happened to them in 1980.

    That will be a day of justice, one we should all celebrate.

    If you want to know who the enemies of precious metals are, just wait to see who responds to this post in an angry or noxious manner.

    Let them show themselves. I can already guess a few of them right now.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not angry. image

    But I also believe there is no manipulation in the silver paper market (lol). It's right as rain.....or is that right as Franklin Raines?

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭

    IndexUniverse.com
    How Safe Are Your ETFs?
    Friday October 10, 1:03 pm ET
    By Matthew Hougan


    Precious Metals Funds

    The precious metal bullion funds are very safe. These include the SPDR Gold (NYSEArca:GLD - News), iShares Silver Trust (AMEX:SLV - News) and iShares COMEX Gold (AMEX:IAU - News) ETFs.

    These funds hold physical precious metals bullion as their sole asset. The metal is stored in a vault with a custodian bank. It is not like a cash deposit where there is deposit risk.

    There are circumstances under which these holdings can be lost—terrorist attacks, acts of God, etc.—but they are extraordinary.

    The bottom line: These funds are as safe as, well, as safe as gold in a bank vault.

    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>IndexUniverse.com
    How Safe Are Your ETFs?
    Friday October 10, 1:03 pm ET
    By Matthew Hougan


    Precious Metals Funds

    The precious metal bullion funds are very safe. These include the SPDR Gold (NYSEArca:GLD - News), iShares Silver Trust (AMEX:SLV - News) and iShares COMEX Gold (AMEX:IAU - News) ETFs.

    These funds hold physical precious metals bullion as their sole asset. The metal is stored in a vault with a custodian bank. It is not like a cash deposit where there is deposit risk.

    There are circumstances under which these holdings can be lost—terrorist attacks, acts of God, etc.—but they are extraordinary.

    The bottom line: These funds are as safe as, well, as safe as gold in a bank vault. >>



    And so were the banks and the stock market image If they don't have serial numbers listed on the web for you to see your assest don't believe everything you hear. In the 19th century Silver (Bust Halves) backed privite banks printed currency. A real problem hit when many of these banks didn't play by the rules and didn't have silver to back currency printed. This market isn't regulated much and your taking their word at face value unless you can at least see your piece of the pie IMO. Ted Butler has pushed for years for all PM's serial numbers to be listed so everything is above board. The way the wild swing are coming they can't buy and sell everyday and they sure can't get physical metals for spot on the open market. Buyer beware!
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...The way the wild swing are coming they can't buy and sell everyday and they sure can't get physical metals for spot on the open market...."

    /////////////////////////////////////////

    Barclay's takes delivery at T+3 and sometimes uses the SEC extension, but not often.
    Inventory/Audit is a 24/7 protocol.

    Folks who know differently need only inform the SEC: enforcement@sec.gov


    ..................................

    The "bifurcated market" is a SCAM being perpetrated by both large and small bagholders.

    A bunch of dinky coin shops ripping folks off for 30% to 40% premiums are NOT the market.
    A few medium-sized - but famous - metal dealers are NOT the market.
    EBAY is NOT the market.

    When silver is closer to $5+ - where its true value says it should be - a $1.50+ premium
    will again be standard.

    The USA is in a recession and at the edge of a depression. The circumstance does NOT
    support a bull-market in ANY metals.

    ............

    Folks who have NO metals, should buy some. Folks who already have enough, should
    wait a bit; the price will come to them.


    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>"...The way the wild swing are coming they can't buy and sell everyday and they sure can't get physical metals for spot on the open market...."

    /////////////////////////////////////////

    Barclay's takes delivery at T+3 and sometimes uses the SEC extension, but not often.
    Inventory/Audit is a 24/7 protocol.

    Folks who know differently need only inform the SEC: enforcement@sec.gov


    ..................................

    The "bifurcated market" is a SCAM being perpetrated by both large and small bagholders.

    A bunch of dinky coin shops ripping folks off for 30% to 40% premiums are NOT the market.
    A few medium-sized - but famous - metal dealers are NOT the market.
    EBAY is NOT the market.

    When silver is closer to $5+ - where its true value says it should be - a $1.50+ premium
    will again be standard.

    The USA is in a recession and at the edge of a depression. The circumstance does NOT
    support a bull-market in ANY metals.

    ............

    Folks who have NO metals, should buy some. Folks who already have enough, should
    wait a bit; the price will come to them. >>



    Nice in theory and the way it should work but if you've followed the silver market you know they've been reported so many times it's unreal. Let's face it the SEC has let down the American Public in every investment area all one has to do is look at the companies that no longer exist due to fraud.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The precious metal bullion funds are very safe. These include the SPDR Gold (NYSEArca:GLD - News), iShares Silver Trust (AMEX:SLV - News) and iShares COMEX Gold (AMEX:IAU - News) ETFs.

    These funds hold physical precious metals bullion as their sole asset. The metal is stored in a vault with a custodian bank. It is not like a cash deposit where there is deposit risk.

    There are circumstances under which these holdings can be lost—terrorist attacks, acts of God, etc.—but they are extraordinary.

    The bottom line: These funds are as safe as, well, as safe as gold in a bank vault.


    If you keep repeating this often enough, maybe you'll convert someone. It just won't be anyone already a frequent reader of this forum.
    Trust in JPM and Barclays, you have to be kidding? JPM is the biggest henchman of all the crap going on today. Only GS might be a "deeper" layer. JPM, FED and the Treasury are one and the same.....at least for losses. On profits, JPM stands alone (lol).

    I'll stick with the bullion in my hands thank you. Why should we not expect these guys to continue to lie to us? They haven't spoken or written a truthful word in years. And who in their right mind actually believes that TPTB would have allowed a gold ETF unless it was a conduit to the advantage of the gold cartel and currency manipulators? The only reason they allowed such a fund was to better control gold and currencies. It was a perfect play. Now they have their cake and eat it too....until the sheeple figure out that there are many more contracts than physical gold or silver. Then again, having hundreds of billions in gold derivatives contracts has certainly helped them to "control" the market better...for now.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold


  • << <i>If you keep repeating this often enough, maybe you'll convert someone. It just won't be anyone already a frequent reader of this forum. >>




    image

    I think you have to repeat it several times while clicking your red heels three times.

    Then you can just dig up a couple of those yellow bricks in the road and fly back to Kansas.

    Fairly similar fantasies, IMO.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • sumrtymsumrtym Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    All I know is years ago as silver made the climb from just under $4 an ounce to $7, the mining cost of an ounce of silver out of Mexico was WELL under $3 an ounce. That reflects mining AND refining costs. That's a pretty hefty profit margin, and supports the theory that silver could easily go back to those levels, particularly as things get worse economically.
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>All I know is years ago as silver made the climb from just under $4 an ounce to $7, the mining cost of an ounce of silver out of Mexico was WELL under $3 an ounce. That reflects mining AND refining costs. That's a pretty hefty profit margin, and supports the theory that silver could easily go back to those levels, particularly as things get worse economically. >>




    Well all I know is this isn't years ago. The price of oil is much higher now than "years ago". We are also in a recession that has lessened demand for industrial metals so less siver will be mined since it's a byproduce of other mined metals today. I don't know what years ago mean but here's the price of oil for some of those years and it takes a lot to get the product to refined form as well as enough energy to run the mines.

    1988 $14.87 $27.05
    1989 $18.33 $31.75
    1990 $23.19 $38.02
    1991 $20.20 $31.86
    1992 $19.25 $29.47
    1993 $16.75 $24.92
    1994 $15.66 $22.69
    1995 $16.75 $23.62
    1996 $20.46 $28.01
    1997 $18.64 $24.95
    1998 $11.91 $15.70
    1999 $16.56 $21.30
    2000 $27.39 $34.16
    2001 $23.00 $27.92
    2002 $22.81 $27.22
    2003 $27.69 $32.34
    2004 $37.66 $42.80
    2005 $50.04 $54.99
    2006 $58.30 $62.11
    2007 $64.20 $66.40
    2008 Partial $97.98 $98.66
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    I'll make one other comment for those thinking they should get spot prices for the mint's PM products both investment/collectors coins. The mint has cost they just don't ship the product right from the refiner. The has expensive machines to buy/maintain, the have a building and utilities that cost money to recoup, they have employees to pay with benefits, nice expensive packing of each coin, shipping boxes,and they have discounted shipping of $4.95 for any amount you purchase. If you want closer to spot buy 1000 oz bars because any business to stay in business usually at least doubles the price of what they pay for a product.


  • << <i>All I know is years ago as silver made the climb from just under $4 an ounce to $7, the mining cost of an ounce of silver out of Mexico was WELL under $3 an ounce. That reflects mining AND refining costs. That's a pretty hefty profit margin, and supports the theory that silver could easily go back to those levels, particularly as things get worse economically. >>



    Years ago..........hmmm.

    Well, today it costs quite a bit more to produce and refine silver than the SLV/spot/paper price of silver.

    No incentive to produce it equals less available in the near future and industrial demand is over 50% of all silver planet wide.

    You can add in medical needs and they aren't going to stop that under any conditions, in fact, it's growing.

    Industrial stockpiles are at all time lows and they will buy it at whatever the cost or close their doors.

    The only "years ago" I see is that we are getting very close to 1979 in terms of precious metals and the clock is ticking.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    Most of the silver ever mined thoughout mankind has been used and very little has ever been recovered just discarded in products. This will have a play in the "supply and demand" for the product even on the downturn. Gold is almost always recovered.
  • I just called my local shop and was quoted $19.00 + tax for generic year Silver Eagles. This is with silver at $9.32 at Kitco.
    Molon Labe
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    The least efficient producers can get silver to market for WAY under $6 an ounce.

    2008 by-product credits, with gold peaking over $1000, likely brought the COST
    of producing ONE-OUNCE of silver WELL below $4.50.


    ..........................

    Pan American Increased Silver Output 31 Per Cent, Achieved Record Production of 17.1 M Ounces in 2007
    Wednesday January 23, 2008 8:00 am ET

    Forecasting 19.5 Million Ounces for 2008

    (All Amounts in U.S. Dollars Unless Otherwise Indicated)

    VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Jan. 23, 2008 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) --

    Pan American Silver Corp. (NasdaqGSimageAAS - News) (Toronto:PAA.TO - News) today announced that it achieved record annual silver production in 2007 of 17.1 million ounces. This represented an increase of 31% as compared to 2006 and surpassed the Company's guidance for 2007 of 17.0 million ounces. Silver production in the fourth quarter of 2007 was also a new record at 5.1 million ounces, an increase of 63% as compared to the fourth quarter of 2006.


    Total cash costs for 2007 have been estimated at $3.42 per ounce of silver produced, net of byproduct credits, which was 16% higher than the Company's 2007 guidance of $2.94 per ounce. In the fourth quarter of 2007, estimated cash costs increased to $4.54 per ounce, due primarily to decreased by-product credits resulting from lower zinc production and prices, some unplanned maintenance costs at the Alamo Dorado mine and the strengthening of the Peruvian currency relative to the US dollar.

    Pan American is expecting to increase its silver production by 14% in 2008 to 19.5 million ounces at a forecasted cash cost of $4.31 per ounce of silver produced. The Company used a zinc and lead price of $2,100 per tonne, a copper price of $6,000 per tonne and a gold price of $700 per ounce in estimating its 2008 by-product credits.

    ``Led by production from the La Colorada and Alamo Dorado mines in Mexico and the Huaron mine in Peru, we delivered as promised, our 13th consecutive year of growth,'' said Geoff Burns, President and CEO of Pan American Silver. ``With the expected start up of Manantial Espejo in Argentina only a few months away, we are poised to achieve record silver production again in 2008 and add a significant gold component to our revenue stream at the same time.''

    Zinc production in 2007 was 39,074 tonnes, compared to 39,366 tonnes in 2006 and is expected to increase to more than 43,000 tonnes in 2008. Gold production in 2007 was 23,580 ounces, more than a three-fold increase from 2006 and should increase again, to more than 50,000 ounces in 2008.

    Estimates of Pan American's future production of silver, zinc and gold, future cash costs of silver production and the start-up of the Manantial Espejo mine are forward-looking information within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and applicable Canadian securities laws. Material factors that could cause Pan American's actual results to differ materially from these estimates include: technological and operational challenges to Pan American's mines and mine development projects; changes in local legislation or taxation or the local political or economic environment; the timing and cost of construction activities at Manantial Espejo; changes in mine or development project parameters to deal with unanticipated economic factors; future prices of silver, gold and base metals; increased competition in the mining industry for equipment and qualified personnel, and their rising costs; unexpected work stoppage or labour disputes; fluctuations in the price for natural gas, fuel oil and other key supplies; and unpredictable risks and hazards relating to the operation and development of Pan American's mines.

    There can be no assurance that any statements containing forward-looking information will prove to be accurate as actual results and future events could differ materially from those anticipated or assumed in such forward-looking information. Accordingly, readers should not place undue reliance on statements containing forward-looking information.

    Pan American does not intend, and does not assume any obligation, to update these forward-looking statements to reflect changes in assumptions or changes in circumstances or any other events affecting such statements, other than as required by applicable law.

    Michael Steinmann, P. Geo., Senior Vice-President Geology & Exploration, and Martin Wafforn, P.Eng., Vice President Mine Engineering, qualified persons (``QP''), as the term is defined in National Instrument 43-101 have reviewed and approved the contents of this press release.

    About Pan American Silver

    Pan American Silver's mission is to be the world's largest and lowest cost primary silver mining company, and to achieve this by increasing its low cost silver production and its silver reserves. The Company has seven operating silver mines in Mexico, Peru and Bolivia. An eighth mine in Argentina is scheduled to commence operations late in the second quarter of 2008.

    30
    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Apparently silver could fall to $3-$6 right now and I don't think it would have much effect on the physical trading price of anything under 1000 oz. The holders of silver are well aware of how much toxic crap still has to be written off by the banks over the next few years. Lehman alone has 1.5 MILLION derivatives trades to unwind with 8000 customers. They are figuring on having 400-500 "experts" working every day to help unwind those trades. I think they will have some problems. Maybe they should give PCGS a call on how to unwind a trade in 10 seconds or less and then move on. Those graders do havea good system.

    Mucho denero will need to be "printed." The silver shorts aren't getting our silver....but they can have all the Barclays' SLV they can handle.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums.


    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭


    << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    i would think that now would be the time to do that...but why the wait?
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭


    << <i> Apparently silver could fall to $3-$6 right now and I don't think it would have much effect on the physical trading price of anything under 1000 oz. The holders of silver are well aware of how much toxic crap still has to be written off by the banks over the next few years. >>



    RR,

    Do you honestly believe that the folks who are paying 60% or 70% premiums for one oz silver rounds when 1,000 oz bars can be purchased for a few points over spot having any real understanding of the financial condition of the banks? Especially when the banks don’t have a real understanding of the financial condition of the banks! Moreover, how does the financial condition of the banks have any relation to the price of silver? If banks fail in large numbers like in the Great Depression, cash will be in short supply. People will be desperate for cash not for one oz silver rounds.

    CG


  • << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    Why didn't they do that 6 weeks ago? How long does it take to melt a 1000oz bar and make 1,10, and 100 oz bars, a few hours? Where is all the silver? These companies could have made MILLIONS of dollars doing this yet they are sitting on their hands, letting their machines and workers lay dormant? I find this extremely difficult to believe.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    Why didn't they do that 6 weeks ago? How long does it take to melt a 1000oz bar and make 1,10, and 100 oz bars, a few hours? Where is all the silver? These companies could have made MILLIONS of dollars doing this yet they are sitting on their hands, letting their machines and workers lay dormant? I find this extremely difficult to believe. >>



    many of these same companies have other more massive orders to fill. consider sunshine which makes blanks for the US mint and god knows
    how many other countries! They do not just make "silver bars". Their
    business encompasses many many things.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    Why didn't they do that 6 weeks ago? How long does it take to melt a 1000oz bar and make 1,10, and 100 oz bars, a few hours? Where is all the silver? These companies could have made MILLIONS of dollars doing this yet they are sitting on their hands, letting their machines and workers lay dormant? I find this extremely difficult to believe. >>



    many of these same companies have other more massive orders to fill. consider sunshine which makes blanks for the US mint and god knows
    how many other countries! They do not just make "silver bars". Their
    business encompasses many many things. >>



    Except they haven't been making blanks for the US Mint lately. The Mint stopped selling silver Eagles 6 weeks ago because, and I quote, "we can't get the blanks from our suppliers".
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    Why didn't they do that 6 weeks ago? How long does it take to melt a 1000oz bar and make 1,10, and 100 oz bars, a few hours? Where is all the silver? These companies could have made MILLIONS of dollars doing this yet they are sitting on their hands, letting their machines and workers lay dormant? I find this extremely difficult to believe. >>



    many of these same companies have other more massive orders to fill. consider sunshine which makes blanks for the US mint and god knows
    how many other countries! They do not just make "silver bars". Their
    business encompasses many many things. >>



    Except they haven't been making blanks for the US Mint lately. The Mint stopped selling silver Eagles 6 weeks ago because, and I quote, "we can't get the blanks from our suppliers". >>



    Sunshine Minting Inc. (SMI) is a supplier of precious metal products in North America. We are the primary supplier of silver blanks to the United States Mint and a supplier of mint products to international mints, financial institutions, marketing companies, and corporations around the world.

    Like I said. They have a lot going on. Massive orders from all around the
    world. The same probably goes for any company in the Sunshine mint
    class.


  • << <i>LOTS of 1000 ounce bars are now being made into little coins/bars
    so that folks will soon be able to buy all they want at reasonable
    premiums. >>



    Even though I hate to ask; do you have any info to back this up?

    People around here talk all the time about buying 1000 oz. bars at near spot.

    Well it just ain't so!

    I am personal friends of the owner of the largest wholesaler in the Southeast US.

    I get a much different story.

    I can buy from him, and I consider it a personal favor, as it actually is.

    I have to buy a minimum of 2500 ounces and it isn't anywhere near the cost that so many around here are buying into.

    Sure, it's cheaper, but nothing like the so-called "informed" talk about.

    Be aware that the COMEX itself is on very shakey financial ground.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • sumrtymsumrtym Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Silvercorp Metals - The Low Cost Silver Producer with High Growth
    By: Thomas Tan, CFA
    Aug 27, 08


    Due to the by-product credits from lead and zinc, for the latest quarter Silvercorp achieved a cash production cost of negative $6.8 per ounce of silver. Even with today's silver price at $13, it is almost $20 cash flow per ounce, an unheard amount among silver producers. To be conservative, let us just ignore the by-product credits, Silvercorp can still produce silver at less than $3 cash cost per ounce. In a year or two when Silvercorp produces 7 million ounces per year in this region, it represents a $70 million (($13-$3) times 7M) operating cash flow per year for this mining operation (In FY 2007, Silvercorp had actually achieved $80 million operating cashflow already partially due to by-product credits). Since Silvercorp owns roughly 3/4 of majority interest in these mines (interest payout reflected in their income statement under non-controlling interests), the portion for Silvercorp is around $52 million (3/4 of $70 million) with a recent market cap of $600 million. You can imagine the operating leverage here if silver comes back to $20 per ounce and the by-product credits are taken into consideration, thus their operating cashflow can be easily doubled.
    __________________
  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 6,246 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>SLV is simply the WORST thing to ever happen to real silver investors.

    It's basically fractional banking and counterfeiting at the same time.

    No, don't even try to tell me or anyone else that they actually have the physical silver to back their fraudulant paper.

    If they did, they would be buying up their paper and selling their physical.

    They'd turn a 50+ % profit overnight.

    They aren't, so it's clear they don't really have the physical assets.

    One day the paper silver holders will repeat what happened to them in 1980.

    That will be a day of justice, one we should all celebrate.

    If you want to know who the enemies of precious metals are, just wait to see who responds to this post in an angry or noxious manner.

    Let them show themselves. I can already guess a few of them right now. >>



    I am told, but I haven't confirmed this, that the prospectus for the SLV and GLD ETF do *NOT* prohibit the ETF from loaning or leasing their gold and silver assets. This isn't to say that they are doing it - but they very well could be. This is not necessarily a bad practice - as long as the borrowers always repay their loans... although it gets more difficult to do as the price of PMs increases.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am told, but I haven't confirmed this, that the prospectus for the SLV and GLD ETF do *NOT* prohibit the ETF from loaning or leasing their gold and silver assets. This isn't to say that they are doing it - but they very well could be. This is not necessarily a bad practice - as long as the borrowers always repay their loans... although it gets more difficult to do as the price of PMs increases.

    This is no different than Central Banks loaning, leasing, or selling out "their" gold by while still keeping possession of it. And per allowed accounting standards both the lender/seller and the buyer can count the gold in their inventories. Just because GLD or SLV could audit for 100% of their inventory doesn't mean they own it. And frankly why wouldn't they follow the CB lead? Does anyone hear actually think the USA hasn't leased or sold a significant portion of their listed 8100 tons of gold (regardless of where it physically sits).

    In my opinion, it's a bad practice. Holders of SLV are expecting to have every ounce of their silver available instantly. This is the whole idea of a metal ETF. It would be different for oil for example. In giving away ownership of the metal the ETF is essentially allowing other entities (ie JPM) to short sell with real metal, rather than paper. The ETF is a ready source of silver for those huge shorts having to deliver physical on the CRIMEX.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 7,016 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If anyone's interested, silver is back up to $10 - at least for the moment.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If anyone's interested, silver is back up to $10 - at least for the moment. >>



    moment being the key word ;-)
  • It will probably rise overnight only to be pounded at the usual time tomorrow morning.

    They really are getting rather predictable.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 6,246 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JMHO, this is your last chance to buy silver under $10... if you can find it for that.
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