Updates! - Is the Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue program Dying?

19Lyds

Having been an active participant in the Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue registry, I've watched the population reports for these coins since the programs inception and have noted the following FDI populations (these figures include error coins):

Total Washington Coins Graded....31,450
Total Adams Coins Graded............18,791 (Adjusted to exclude errors)
Total Jefferson Coins Graded........17,886 (Adjusted to exclude errors)
Total Madison Coins Graded.........10,692*
Total Monroe Coins Graded............7,613
Total JQ Adams Coins Graded........6,030
Total Jackson Coins Graded...........3,299*
Total Van Buren Coins Graded.......3,246 (9/27/2009) Old = 2,970 (7/12/2009)
Total Harrison Coins Graded..........2,550 (9/20/2009) Old = 2,547 (8/2/2009)
Total Tyler Coins Graded................1,430 (10/25/2009) Old = 663 (8/2/2009)
Total Polk Coins Graded.................2,691 (10/25/2009)
Total Taylor Coins Graded.................354 (12/06/2009)

* = Up since Last Report

It definitely shows that the number of graded coins is slipping which indicates (since these numbers do not include rejects that didn't make the minimum grade) that the number of submissions is slipping.

Since PCGS eliminated non-Dealers from submitting for First Day of Issue through the bulk department on July 1st, have they successfully killed the program or have they added artificial value to the coins still being graded because of low populations?

In other words, just because fewer coins are being submitted by the masses, do the low population coins still demand exorbitant pricing?

wondercoin

To some extent, the Wash dollars had 1 1/2 years more time to get to 31,000+ coins than the new Jackson coins which accounts for a portion of the difference. But, 5,000-10,000 slabbed anything (even this years' coins) is not too bad in my view considering there are less than 200 registry sets at this point. I would like to see registered sets go to 1,000, which would really pick things up for PCGS, dealers and collectors of the series.

Wondercoin

19Lyds

Well normally I would agree with you Mitch (or would I ) but we're talking First Day of Issue coins which, for the Washingtons, had to be submitted under 1 of the following:

1. Postmarked as being mailed on the release day (2/14/2007)
2. Submitted as First Day Coin Covers
3. Submitted in $1,000 boxes with a "Do Not Open before 2/14/2007" sticker sealing the box.
4. Submitted in First Day of Issue Rolls (which I don't think existed for the Washington's.)

At anytime, someone can come across a $1,000 box to submit for any of the coins provided the proper sticker seals the box but the submissions have slowly been dwindling with each new release.

Its been nearly 7 weeks since the Jackson coins were released yet just a smidge over 2,000 have been graded. The Madison coin had 7,400 graded at the 6 week time frame while the Monroe (The highest graded so far) had close to 4,000 graded and JQ Adams had close to 5,000.

I expect that there are maybe 4-5 submitters anymore whereas before July 1st there were way more (me included).

wondercoin

Lee: I think I have somewhere between 30,000-40,000 First Day qualified coins just sitting at PCGS waiting to be graded whenever I want them. And, I am not alone in that. So, trust me - there will be plenty more A. Jackson and earlier Presidents graded at PCGS in the months and years ahead. What needs to grow is the registry base - not only for Pres $1, but nearly every other registry set as well. In the meantime, just think where I would be if I had that $30,000 or $40,000 sitting in the stock market this past year as opposed to sitting at PCGS!

Wondercoin

19Lyds

Really now?

How is it that you can have "30,000-40,000 First Day qualified coins just sitting at PCGS" waiting to be graded whenever you want?

Does PCGS act as your warehouse? Do they simply store these FDI qualified coins waiting for you to issue the order to grade them?

Seriously, I want to know since us little guys that have been "pared out of the FDI submission program" don't have that luxury! Our submissions went 100, 200 or 300 at a time.

wondercoin

Lee: If you order 30,000 - 40,000 FDI qualified coins and request to deliver them to PCGS. I am near certain they will only be too happy to hold on to them for you as you grade them down. It really has absolutely nothing to do with little guys or big guys. Go order 35,000 coins next week and give it a try.

Anyway, back to your original post. I have two comments now:

1. Since it is only you and I that even care to comment on your thought provoking post, that is telling enough to me that interest is not as great as it could be - no?

2. I wanted to show you (and others) that there are still mountains of First Day qualified coins yet to grade - the label shouldn't play a major role in the fate of high end coins on these earlier Pres $1's. What plays a major role I believe is simply how tough (or not) certain coins really are in top pop.

Wondercoin

sonoranmonsoon

Wondercoin;

When First day covers first came out in the stamp collecting world they were pretty hot, and carried a premium. Now, you can buy them buy the boat load for practically nothing.

I have to wonder, is it even worth the cost to have 30,000 of these slabbed? I understand the few high grades will command a high premium, but does that compensate you for all the lower grades you must pay for? As you pointed out, the collector base simply is not large enough to absorb the numbers. At least with the non 1st day coins you can presort and dismiss the lower grades before submitting, you do not have that luxury with FDOI. I thought the lower total pops were simply a result of the requirement to submit 1000 at at time, not being financially worth the effort for dealers.

Why submit all those rolls just to get the FDOI designation? Would it not be more profitable to simply open the rolls yourself, ignore the FDOI all together, pick out the few good items, submit them, and spend the rest at a slight loss. I may be wrong, but that seems a whole lot more profitable, than trying to unload the thousands of lower grade FDOI's in expensive plastic.

19Lyds

"If you order 30,000 - 40,000 FDI qualified coins and request to deliver them to PCGS................Go order 35,000 coins next week and give it a try." -- If I could afford to have $35,000 just sitting around at PCGS waiting (not scheduled, not submitted, and not drawing interest, but waiting) to be graded, I don't think it would bother me to pay $500 or $600 for an FDI coin.

"that is telling enough to me that interest is not as great as it could be - no?" -- Exactly my point. If the common fellow did not have access to common coins, there would be little interest for the common guy. Perhaps this post is a bit premature in that we've only gone through one iteration of the "common fellow" not being able to submit for the FDI label. However, a similar scenario was played out with the SAE's and the First Strike™ label. Keeping in mind that the SAE's are an "established" 21 year old set whereas the Presidential Dollars have only been out for a year. When First Strike™ was taken away, enough folks complained to cause PCGS to rethink this option. Had the Presidential Dollars been out for 5 or even 6 years would the same scenario have been played out?

"I thought the lower total pops were simply a result of the requirement to submit 1000 at at time, not being financially worth the effort for dealers." -- These do not have to be submitted 1,000 at a time if they are submitted on or before the First Day of Issue (release date) or if they are submitted as First Day Coin Covers. Is this cost prohibitive? Of course it is but with more being submitted, you get a more accurate picture of what the typical grades are and what the hard to achieve grades are.

All I am trying to point out is that, given the fact that this series is so young, did putting the 100 coin minimum through bulk submissions and then restricting those submissions to perhaps 4, maybe 5 individuals contirbute to the smaller submissions on the Andrew Jackson coins?

I never really understood why PCGS set the 100 coin minimum for FDI coins in the first place? I think if that restriction were lifted that there would have been many more submissions which would have given the series life.

Silverstate

Lee,

I would have to agree with you that restrictions in the bulk submissions to dealers only has slowed down the FDI qualfied Presidential Dollar submissions.
Most collectors that I know would rather have the FDI label to be eligible for all of the sets rather than be restricted to 1/2 of the registry set only.
So now, submit them through a dealer or just buy them on the open market from the handful that got them graded.

My submissions are down due to some HARD grading on some of my recent submissions, it slows me down a bit.

As for the rest, they are probably experiencing the same thing.

Also, I would add that the earlier Presidential Dollars include LOTS of error coins as well.
Substantial Errors have not been commonplace since the Jefferson dollar.
LOTS of Washington, Adams and Jefferson Errors. The rest of the Presidential dollars have not had very many errors slabbed.

Is the Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue program Dead? - No, it's just limping right now!

eCoinquest

I still don't understand the reasoning behind PCGS quiting the Bulk program for the average collector. Yeah sure it is supposed to help their service improve but I sure have not noticed an improvement from the regular turnarounds and service.
Why would they want to limit the submissions to only 4-5 "authorized dealers" unless the "authorized dealers had something to do with the decision?

Also, if I want to send ALL of my raw coins to PCGS, will they keep them for me along with your 40,000 Mitch?? I would like that better than having to keep em at the bank. Forget the safe deposit boxes, I can send em all to PCGS until the time is right to have them graded.

sonoranmonsoon

Oops, early morning typo. I meant to say 100 to submit, not 1000; But the argument remains the same.

wondercoin

"I have to wonder, is it even worth the cost to have 30,000 of these slabbed?"

You are exactly right. Which is why 30,000 coins ARE being graded a bit slower than I originally anticipated and are drawing 0% interest as they sit there. But, again, I do not see the comparision to stamps - these coins will stand or fall due to the toughness of the particular grade and demand (or lack of it), not the label. Case in point - the Monroe MS68 coins - I recently heard that the non-FDI coins fetched record levels.

Wondercoin

19Lyds

<< <i>I still don't understand the reasoning behind PCGS quiting the Bulk program for the average collector. Yeah sure it is supposed to help their service improve but I sure have not noticed an improvement from the regular turnarounds and service.
Why would they want to limit the submissions to only 4-5 "authorized dealers" unless the "authorized dealers had something to do with the decision?

Also, if I want to send ALL of my raw coins to PCGS, will they keep them for me along with your 40,000 Mitch?? I would like that better than having to keep em at the bank. Forget the safe deposit boxes, I can send em all to PCGS until the time is right to have them graded. >>



To clarify, the program is not limited to 4-5 authorized dealers as any "authorized dealer could participate but I have only seen 4-5 authorized dealers "actually" participate. Ask yourself the last time you EVER saw an FDI or even a non-FDI Presidential Dollar at a Coin Show? I see way more Eisnehower Dollars than graded Presidentials.

Of course this isn't to say that nobody really cares about the coin as there are plenty of registry participants across all spectrums but the coin just isn;t profitable from a "dealers" perspective.

The net result is fewer submission whereas if us Non-dealers were allowed back into the fold, PCGS would have at least 100 more coins to grade every quarter from me and I suspect quite a few more folks.

wondercoin

"restricting those submissions to perhaps 4, maybe 5 individuals contirbute to the smaller submissions on the Andrew Jackson coins?"

I don't think so. First, there are hundreds upon hundreds of authorized dealers who can submit these coins, not 4 or 5. Second, your "trend" of crashing populations existed throughout the time everyone could submit them.

Now, do you want to really know what has contributed to the lack of A Jackson submitting in my view - THE HORRIBLE QUALITY OF THE COINS. My last batch of 500 D mint submissions yielded -1- MS66 coin (repeat, not MS67 or MS68 like the other more recent Pres $1's). What do you do with multi hundred MS65 coins to get -1- MS66? Answer, you sell them over a period of many weeks (at near break even levels after expenses) and you do not submit your next 500 until you have made a serious dent in trying to get your money back. It is as simple as that.

Wondercoin

19Lyds

<< <i>"restricting those submissions to perhaps 4, maybe 5 individuals contirbute to the smaller submissions on the Andrew Jackson coins?"

I don't think so. First, there are hundreds upon hundreds of authorized dealers who can submit these coins, not 4 or 5. Second, your "trend" of crashing populations existed throughout the time everyone could submit them. >>

I never said that the submission were restricted to 4, maybe 5 authorized dealers. I said the "ONLY" 4, maybe 5 authorized dealers that are "currently" submitting!

<< <i>Now, do you want to really know what has contributed to the lack of A Jackson submitting in my view - THE HORRIBLE QUALITY OF THE COINS. My last batch of 500 D mint submissions yielded -1- MS66 coin (repeat, not MS67 or MS68 like the other more recent Pres $1's). What do you do with multi hundred MS65 coins to get -1- MS66? Answer, you sell them over a period of many weeks (at near break even levels after expenses) and you do not submit your next 500 until you have made a serious dent in trying to get your money back. It is as simple as that.

Wondercoin >>


I agree that the Denver Jackson coins are terrible but I would rather submit my 100 for that 1 MS66 or possibly more MS66's than pay an exaggerated price for one! There is no telling where the good coins are at or even if any exist. After all, 61 million were produced yet less than 1,000 were submitted. I'm not saying that I could have submitted and received a bunch of MS66's, but I sure would have like to have had the opportunity!

I am currently invested in the FDI series, both in time and money, and it just irritates me that I can no longer submit my own coins and I think there are a lot of collectors out their that feel the same way.

For modern coinage, collectors should not have to rely upon dealers for their collections.

Silverstate

I know I took a BATH on Jefferson's thinking that MS67 was going to be the RARE grade.
Single coins were selling for $1800 , now you can get one for $50.

Well, lesson learned.

So, many I believe are just cautious.
Mitch and the rest do take on big projects and sometimes it yields very little.

Some like to jump in first and others like to wait.

But, seeing low pop MS66 Andrew Jackson D coins, just makes me wonder.
I have screened quite a few doing some error hunting.

I agree that the coins are not very nice.
However, I saw many that should grade better than MS65.

But, these would not qualify now for FDI designation.

PCGS is just tight on grading these right now.

19Lyds

Lot's and I mean LOT's of folks fell into the Jefferson trap. Which is the primary reason I am not purchasing ANY 2008-D MS66 Andrew Jackson's.

After the scarcity of the MS67 in the Washington's and the Adams coins, folks just jumped on those MS67 Jefferson's. Fortunately, I waited long enough to purchase mine after the initial blast!

Silverstate

Bottomline for me is that the "FDI" program is far from dead.

After seeing the everyone grades anything party going on in the Non-FDI complete set and the satin coins, FDI designation seems a lot more secure in holding power.

I believe the values for the "First Day of Issue" will continue to be the coins the most in demand.

And the FDI sets have about half of the coins that the non-FDI sets have.

And the FDI coins work in BOTH registry sets. (FDI and NON-FDI sets)

It's a 2-fer !!

WinPitcher

I was going to do every president but the guidance was changed to serve some big guy.

Steve

Silverstate

At least with the FDI coins.

They cannot be cracked out for upgrades like any other coin and retain the FDI designation.

19Lyds

<< <i>At least with the FDI coins.

They cannot be cracked out for upgrades like any other coin and retain the FDI designation. >>



Yes they can Jim.

I know I've submitted Washington's for Weak Edge Lettering attribution that had been graded before the Position A and Position B designations and the coins were returned properly designated but without the Weak Edge Lettering I had hoped for. They also had the FDI designation.

Once a coin is attributed or designated as FDI, it is always FDI. If a collector feels that an FDI coin is undergraded, he can certainly submt that coin for regrade and still retain the FDI label if the coin upgrades.

Silverstate

Lee,

Let me clarify this issue.

If anyone cracks out thier FDI coins, places them in 2x2's for submission to PCGS for grading.

They have no grade guarantee & they will not come back FDI.

IF, they submit them in the slabs, they can do anything they want. (Add Position designation, add weak designations or just regrade ect.)
PCGS needs to see them IN THE SLAB, to maintain the FDI designation.

Crack outs for upgrades will get them back in a blue label and they could upgrade, stay the same or even downgrade from what they were prior to the crack out session.

19Lyds

Your post confused me Jim, since ANY coin cracked out of a slab and resubmitted for grading cannot possibly retain a specific designation related to the label.

There are currently three labels with which this applies:

FDI Presidential Dollars

First Strike Coins

20th Anniversary SAE and GAE Proof and Uncirculated coins.

Silverstate

<< <i>Your post confused me Jim, since ANY coin cracked out of a slab and resubmitted for grading cannot possibly retain a specific designation related to the label.

There are currently three labels with which this applies:

FDI Presidential Dollars

First Strike Coins

20th Anniversary SAE and GAE Proof and Uncirculated coins. >>



Lee, I have been known to have that effect on people!

So, the original point is a SPECIAL Labeled coin is less likely to be upgraded.....

Since correct me If I am wrong.

Most coins are successfully upgraded by cracking them out and regrading them versus sending in the slabs and hoping for the best.

(If you submit the slabs)...More times than not, you will be making a donation to PCGS and paying the postage as well for the trouble!

19Lyds

Looks like another 277 have been graded since Oct 1st bringing the total to 2,362 !

<gasp>

19Lyds

Is it too early to pronounce this program as having officially died at 12:00:00am on 11/13/2008?

Martin Van Buren was released on the above date and as of 11/28/2008, grades are being posted. However, as of today, the following populations exist for the Andrew Jackson coin: (Current as of 11/28)



After having watched these pops for the past two years I can say that the Andrew Jackson Dollar populations will remain relatively static unless some dealer submits a $1,000 box for grading. I seriously doubt that will happen given the following facts:

1. You NEVER see these at coins shows (either Local, Regional, or National)
2. Andrew Jackson FDI MS66 2008-P slabs can be had for $5.00 per slab on eBay
3. MS66 is the lowest minimum bulk grade that is acceptable by PCGS. You cannot submit 100 coins and request that they only grade the MS67s.

I just don't think that dealers will be submitting any anytime soon since the minimum grade costs $10.00-$12.00 per slab and a "no grade" is $2.00 per coin.

Also note that you cannot touch an MS66 FDI 2008-D Andrew Jackson for less the $400 each.
The same is somewhat true of the MS67 FDI 2008-P coins at $400 each though the populations are higher.

Now, compare the above table with the Pops for the John Quincy Adams which was the last coin in the series where us common collectors club members could submit:



2,678 less FDI coins were submitted for the Andrew Jackson's. Not only that but look at the non-FDI totals. Less than half the Andrew Jacksons were submitted over the JQ Adams coins.

Check out the James Monroes.



4,502 MORE FDI coins were submitted than the Andrew Jackson! That, is a signifcant number which is also reflected in the non-FDI submissions. (701 / 235 / 110)

Whats this all mean? Simply that submissions are down and its primarily due to the collectors club members NOT being able to submit these. Low submissions also mean low populations which create artificially high sell numbers. If the highest grade available is an MS66 because only 1,297 out of 122.25 million and there are only 13 of them, what are you going to do?

What else does it mean? Again simply that eventually the FDI concept will die off as more and more folks get priced out of the registry. Fewer and fewer buyers means that dealers will submit less and less.

Personally, I think that the First Day of Issue slabs began a slow death spiral on July 1st and will continue to spiral down into oblivion dragging along woth them the regular, non FDI submissions.

I think the numbers support my observations.

And yes, I'm still really, really pissed about this entire issue!

wondercoin

"Whats this all mean? Simply that submissions are down and its primarily due to the collectors club members NOT being able to submit these"

An equally compelling conclusion is that submissions are down simply due to the natural evolution of the series. For example, when collectors club members WERE submitting coins (say for Monroe) - submissions were down tremendously as compared to Washington and Adams. Was that huge submission drop the result of collectors club members being ALLOWED to submit coins?

PCGS has seen its stock drop from the very high teens to under $3/share and most of that drop took place during the time collectors club members were able to submit these coins. So what - right? Simply put, things are what they are and they have absolutely nothing to do with who exactly is submitting the coins.

Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin

sonoranmonsoon

I always felt the FDOI program was a gimmick to create demand in an area that creates an artificial added value to the coin. If it is to succeed, the TPG will have to make submissions more affordable to the market makers, otherwise the costs of trying to sell off the lower grades will become prohibitive for them.

wondercoin

Sonoranmonsoon - You nailed it. But, let me add one more thing - PCGS does not want to lose money on submissions either. For example, to this point, it might take a review of a thousand or more fresh coins to locate a single MS66 Jackson D candidate. Hence, PCGS required a minimum MS65 grade on those submissions. Yet, MS65 coins sell on the open market for as little as $5 a coin, give or take - often less than the grading fee. So, it is tough for everyone all the way around and some coins in some grades may simply be non-cost effective to pursue.

Wondercoin

GRANDAM

<< <i>Is the Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue program Dead? >>



Yes,,,, dead,,,,, the hole is dug,,,, throw the dirt in and cover them up.

GrandAm

Silverstate

Weighting of the sets will fix this problem.
When the FDI coins get a bonus point for the designation versus the standard blue label.

Then the undergrades will have more value in the registry as well.
This should help those coins find homes and those submitting them will not take a bath on the undergrades.....Which in turn might encourage more submissions.

JMHO

GRANDAM

But is anyone still submitting for FDI?

GrandAm

19Lyds

<< <i>Weighting of the sets will fix this problem.
When the FDI coins get a bonus point for the designation versus the standard blue label.

Then the undergrades will have more value in the registry as well.
This should help those coins find homes and those submitting them will not take a bath on the undergrades.....Which in turn might encourage more submissions.

JMHO >>



I seriously doubt this since First Strike™ Silver Eagles do not get any special "weights" in the Silver Eagle Sets.

The only folks left submitting these are a few select Authorized Dealers and those non-Dealers that have connections with an Authorized Dealer. I would guess that there are less than 6 making the submissions and bt mid next year expect total FDI submissions across both mints and positions to be well under a thousand coins.

There simply is no incentive to continue given the current pricing a those that do submit are asking high prices based upon low pops which in turn is the result of not enough submissions.

Silverstate

Lee,

First strike on a non circulating coin series is not comparable to FDI coins.

I believe that weighting will take place very soon......

19Lyds

<< <i>Lee,

First strike on a non circulating coin series is not comparable to FDI coins.

I believe that weighting will take place very soon...... >>



You can't be serious Jim!

How could that possibly be since they are both coins submitted within a specific timeframe from the date of issue? They both have their own unique set registries and both can be intermixed within each set. (i.e. First Strike in non-First Strike Sets and FDI in non-FDI sets)

And BTW, First Strike™ SAE's don't get ANY weights even in the First Strike Registries! A First Strike 1992 SAE has exactly the same weight as a 1992 SAE and I have been through this with PCGS who will not budge on this. Buying First Strike's prior to 2005 is simply a collector's perogative as it gathers zero extra points in the First Strike Sets so why oh why would the FDI coins be any different in the non-FDI sets?

wondercoin

Now wouldn't that be irony at its finest. Only dealers can obtain First Day of Issue holders and collectors are possibly pursuing higher weights for the FDI coins.

Wondercoin

Silverstate

<< <i>Now wouldn't that be irony at its finest. Only dealers can obtain First Day of Issue holders and collectors are possibly pursuing higher weights for the FDI coins.

Wondercoin >>



If the FDI coins get added weight the FDI coins WILL be more collectible, If not then LEE I would agree with you as it being a collectors choice on what to collect.

AND at the same time, those undergrade business strikes would be of more value and sell better to the registry collectors.

.... Then this would increase submissions.

Oh Well, Only time will tell.......................

wondercoin

Jim: I agree with you. The irony is the fact that change will likely come about through collector insistence to PCGS. And, I am just glad it wasn't shown that an authorized dealer was pushing for this change - you could only imagine the conspiracy theories that would flow from that circumstance!!

You know - way back when, I made it clear I was a strong supporter of the way NGC deterined weights in its registry, which I believe is linked (at least in part) to the actual values of the coins. I would have no problem weighing the Presidential dollar series that way if collectors supported that. I always thought that in a sense it was a most fair way to weigh the value of the coins in a set.

Wondercoin

Silverstate

Mitch,

As Lee has pointed out. Many are pushing for some changes at PCGS. You just don't know when the pushing will get the issue over the top and put into practice. I will hand the collectors base a high 5 for the allowance of submitting FS coins again. When enough cry out, things happen.

Maybe all of this will breathe new life into the still young Presidential Dollar Registry sets.

I remember that weighting of the Presidential Dollars was discussed over 12 months ago. The response from PCGS was that we will weight the sets, but not just yet.......(a song from wizard of OZ is heard in the distance.........somewhere over the rainbow....)

19Lyds

Jim,

Mitch,

From the Registry Rules page under "Grade Points, Set Rating and Weighting:"

For weighted sets, the rarest coin in the set may have a weight of "10" and the most common coin will have a weight of "1."

The presidential dollars sets WILL get weighted (each coin currently has a weight value of 1.00) once it can be determined which coin or variety in a specific set is the "rarest" of the series however, whether or not that coin is FDI will have absolutely no bearing on its "weight".

What this means is that, Yes, I can register my FDI 2007-D Pos B Washington in my "non-FDI" registry set but that coins relative weighting will not be any higher than its non-FDI counterpart. Its FDI weighting is only applicable in the set for which it is weighted.

A specific example: The weight in an Eisenhower Dollar Set for a 1972 Type 2 coin is 10. If I register that same 1972 Type 2 coin in my 20th Century Type Set, it does not carry the 10 point weighting but gets assigned the 2 point weighting of a typical Eisenhower Clad Dollar.

The weighting that will occur on the Presidential Dollars will be for the specific "rarities" within the series and not be based upon whether or not the coin is FDI graded unless its an FDI set.

From BJ Searls: "The Prez sets will be weighted soon, but FDI's within the non-FDI sets will not receive greater weights than other coins in the same line item."

So tell me, where is the added value for undergraded FDI coins since the only weight they will carry will be specific to the FDI Registry Sets?

Silverstate

Lee,
You make some great points. We will have to see what actually happens....

19Lyds

Now this is interesting, The Andrew Jackson Pops for FDI went up by 3 coins.

Exactly what does this mean?

Minimum submissions are 100 coins and the following is what increased:

2 - 2008P Position B's in MS65
1 - 2008D Position B in MS64

So someone submitted 2 FDI rolls of P's and 2 FDI rolls of D's and specified a minimum grade of MS64 which means that 97 coins missed the MS64 mark?

Silverstate

<< <i>Now this is interesting, The Andrew Jackson Pops for FDI went up by 3 coins.

Exactly what does this mean?

Minimum submissions are 100 coins and the following is what increased:

2 - 2008P Position B's in MS65
1 - 2008D Position B in MS64

So someone submitted 2 FDI rolls of P's and 2 FDI rolls of D's and specified a minimum grade of MS64 which means that 97 coins missed the MS64 mark? >>



Or some coins were upgraded and the pop report didn't get adjusted...
Or some have those cases down there and can have some more rolls graded at will as suggested.

Lee - You don't miss much!
You are like the "Dollar Super Sleath"

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Now this is interesting, The Andrew Jackson Pops for FDI went up by 3 coins.

Exactly what does this mean?

Minimum submissions are 100 coins and the following is what increased:

2 - 2008P Position B's in MS65
1 - 2008D Position B in MS64

So someone submitted 2 FDI rolls of P's and 2 FDI rolls of D's and specified a minimum grade of MS64 which means that 97 coins missed the MS64 mark? >>



Or some coins were upgraded and the pop report didn't get adjusted...
Or some have those cases down there and can have some more rolls graded at will as suggested.

Lee - You don't miss much!
You are like the "Dollar Super Sleath"
>>



Jim, it wouldn't matter how many boxes of coins are at PCGS waiting for the call, these can only be submitted 100 at a time. Besides, do you REALLY believe that PCGS has a stockpile of Presidential dollars that they are holding for future submissions for some dealer? It just seems so unrealistic the PCGS would accept the financial liability to store boxes of coins for "possible" future submissions. And yes I realize that PCGS has coins waiting to be graded, or that are in the grading process or that are graded waiting to be shipped out but to act as a "warehouse" for long term coin storage? That just doesn't seem realistic to me.

I suppose some could have been graded in BU slabs and resubmitted for an upgrade review but I didn't think folks were still doing that since they are next to impossible to sell! However, I didn't think of that particular scenario so thanks for reminding me.

As for being the Dollar Super Sleuth (you did mean Sleuth right?), I'm just pissed off that I can;t submit these anymore and will be for quite a while. Its now just a question of watching the pops on a daily basis.

Datentype

19Lyds, per your comment:

"Besides, do you REALLY believe that PCGS has a stockpile of Presidential dollars that they are holding for future submissions for some dealer? It just seems so unrealistic the PCGS would accept the financial liability to store boxes of coins for "possible" future submissions. And yes I realize that PCGS has coins waiting to be graded, or that are in the grading process or that are graded waiting to be shipped out but to act as a "warehouse" for long term coin storage? That just doesn't seem realistic to me."

They do this because i had a round $10,000 siting there in the vault waiting for the call when the program first started. I soon decided to collect them back from the vault when the deal was changed and it was no longer a feasible business venture for me.

wondercoin

Datentype is right, but, more than that... I recently mentioned on another thread that I still have close to 30,000 FDI approved coins still sitting over there. And, boy am I glad that $30,000 wasn't in the stock market!

Wondercoin

wondercoin

"Or some coins were upgraded and the pop report didn't get adjusted..."

Upgraded to MS64/65???? Seriously, sounds to me like someone possibly trying to score some error coins, but who knows (and frankly, who cares).

Wondercoin

19Lyds

But, these have to have been sealed boxes dated "Do Not Open before 2/14/2007" or whatever the release date is for a specific president which means they store just as easily in a bank vault waiting for purchase as they would at PCGS. Exactly the same as the "sealed" shipping boxes fom the US Mint for the First Strike™ program.

Not only that, but to truely qualify for FDI, since they would have to have been purchased either on the release day or prior to the release day, they would have to have that seal on them.

So let me ask, when you make the call, do you guys say "Submit 4 rolls or 10 rolls or whatever. Do you specify a submission amount or does the entire box have to be submitted? Are there opened boxes? Partial Boxes? or What?

19Lyds

From this information thread:

"2. Mint-sealed Boxes. Coins housed in original, mint-sealed boxes with a white seal bearing the name of the President (i.e. "PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON") and the official release date (i.e. "DO NOT BREAK SEAL UNTIL FEB. 15"). Such boxes must also contain the date stamp of the Mint inspector. The same rules will apply to future Presidential Dollars unless the Mint makes changes in their packaging and sealing."

19Lyds

<< <i>"Or some coins were upgraded and the pop report didn't get adjusted..."

Upgraded to MS64/65???? Seriously, sounds to me like someone possibly trying to score some error coins, but who knows (and frankly, who cares).

Wondercoin >>



The only way this could have occured on a coin by coin basis would have been from BU Slabs as the higher pops did not go down. Are you folks still getting BU Slabs?

wondercoin

"they store just as easily in a bank vault waiting for purchase as they would at PCGS."

I can agree with that, but, I, personally, have no concern about my 30,000 coins sitting at PCGS awaiting grading.

Wondercoin