HOF Veterans Committee puts up 10 names for consideration.

RonBurgundy · September 16, 2008 6:23AM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - Yes
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - Tough one, pal. I could go either way.
Luis Tiant - No
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

These were the candidates announced Tuesday. The 64 living HOF'ers will vote. 48 must vote yes for induction.

Bottom9th · September 16, 2008 6:43AM

I'd like to see Santo get in

cwazzy · September 16, 2008 6:46AM

I'd like to see Hodges get in. But then again I am a Brooklyn fan.

Chris

Morgoth · September 16, 2008 6:47AM

I am glad Oliver got a nominee, without the collusion of MLB owners Oliver may have gotten 3000 hits.

Barndog · September 16, 2008 6:50AM

I don't know anything about El Tiante's lifetime stats, but do know that every kid in Boston growing up in the 70s had a windup like him (me included).

WinPitcher · September 16, 2008 6:53AM

Jim Kaat and Gil Hodges should have already been in.

JMHO

Steve

JackWESQ · September 16, 2008 7:15AM

I'm just glad that Steve Garvey did not make the cut from 20 to 10, much less actually get inducted.

/s/ JackWESQ

coinkat · September 16, 2008 7:48AM

I have made the argument for Gil Hodges for years on this forum and it has been tough. I think he should atready be there too. I would rather see Frank Howard instead of Vada Pinson. I have mixed feelings about Kaat and Tiant. I think Dick Allen is a tough call and if he does not make it, it is for similar reasons that Howard didn't make it

dallasactuary · September 16, 2008 8:33AM

Joe Torre - Yes - as a player alone he was 95% of the way there; the managing success easily puts him over the line
Ron Santo - Yes - have I mentioned that only buck-toothed, drooling idiots want to keep him out? BY FAR the best eligible player not in the HOF not named Dick Allen.
Gil Hodges - No - he's only a HOFer if you ignore what a hitter's park he played in; his managerial career is spotty with one big highlight - wouldn't bother me much if he got in
Dick Allen - No - only because he was a jerk and bad for the game; as a player, one of the top 100, maybe top 50, of all time (and his picture is on my desktop)
Jim Kaat - No - close, but just not good enough. Like Hodges, it wouldn't bother me much if he got in, though.
Luis Tiant - Yes - I have no idea why he's not in. Truly a great pitcher. Boston's pitching was better than it's hitting every year Tiant was there, but Fenway hid that well
Tony Oliva - No - just too short a career
Al Oliver - No - not even close
Vada Pinson - No - but close
Maury Wills - No - not even close

yankeeno7 · September 16, 2008 9:24AM

Joe Torre - Would be my top pick...player+manager gets him there. Would be really interesting if he wins the WS with the Dodgers this year
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - I would be ok with it
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - I think would be my second favorite
Luis Tiant - probably not but I would be ok with it
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

coinkat · September 16, 2008 11:13AM

After reading dallasactuary's response, there are differences between Howard and Allen. Howard was good for the game.

dallasactuary · September 16, 2008 12:31PM

<< After reading dallasactuary's response, there are differences between Howard and Allen. Howard was good for the game. >>

Indeed, Howard's titanic swings catching nothing but air are extremely entertaining, and you get to see him do it about 10 times every single game. Once every third game or so, he even makes contact!!!!!

Boopotts · September 16, 2008 12:58PM

<< 

<< After reading dallasactuary's response, there are differences between Howard and Allen. Howard was good for the game. >>

Indeed, Howard's titanic swings catching nothing but air are extremely entertaining, and you get to see him do it about 10 times every single game. Once every third game or so, he even makes contact!!!!! >>

I think Coinkat was talking about Frank Howard.

dallasactuary · September 16, 2008 1:23PM

<< I think Coinkat was talking about Frank Howard. >>

Yes, he was. Apparently I am obsessing.

TomGshotput · September 16, 2008 1:59PM

If a player is truly good enough at the sport, his personality should not keep him out of the Hall-of-Fame. Cap Anson was far worse for the sport than Dick Allen. Even looking solely at what he did on the field, however, I wonder if Allen was really any better than Keith Hernandez

Hodges shouldn't come close. Allen and Hernandez were better, Will Clark was better, Powell was better, even Cash was better. How much credit do you give to the 1967 season to put him ahead of all those first basemen who aren't in the Hall-of-Fame?

Obviously Blyleven was far better than Tiant (and Kaat) and that is probably too high a standard. But I don't see Tiant as significantly better than a handful of other pitchers

There is an argument that Oliva would be deserving. He led the league in batting average and was fifth in OPS as a 25-year-old rookie. He probably was good enough to play close to that level as a 23- and 24-year-old, but having dark skin for an AL team in the early sixties meant he needed to stay in the minors longer than necessary. He was a good player those years who was simply not allowed to play in the majors. Of course even if we do give him credit for those years that's only 13 years, maybe slightly better than Rocky Colavito

Torre and Santo are easy choices

stevek · September 16, 2008 2:11PM

Yes, Torre gets in because of the successful managing included. None of the others should be in.

stevek · September 16, 2008 2:12PM

I've noticed a bump recently on Ron Santo cards on ebay - I guess some are anticipating he gets in.

dallasactuary · September 16, 2008 2:38PM

<< I wonder if Allen was really any better than Keith Hernandez >>

I'm with you on almost all of your post, but this? Dick Allen has a career OPS+ of 156 (plus or minus three points from Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Joe DiMaggio and Mel Ott) and a high five of 199, 181, 174, 165, 164. Compare that to any first baseman in the HOF besides Gehrig or Foxx - Killebrew, Murray, McCovey, Perez, Cepeda, Terry - or especially to non HOFers like Hernandez or Hodges and it just isn't even close. Allen does compare very closely to Mize and Greenberg but factor in that Allen had speed and that his hitting improved with RISP and close/late, and I think he passes them both by. Allen had to play his best years in the lowest scoring period since the turn of the century on mostly pretty bad teams and that, and his crappy attitude, has caused him to be mostly forgotten - but he was a great, great player.

Estil · September 16, 2008 4:20PM

Joe Torre and Jim Kaat are most definte. Gil Hodges gets my vote too because I keep mistakenly thinking he's in the HOF. Ron Santo is a toss up; the others, no way. The Vets Committee set the precident of putting in Bill Mazezroski because he was so great defensively at 2B, so you must put in Mr. Kaat for the same reason (and his overall career stats are FAR more respectible in terms of HOF caliber than Mr. Mazersoki's).

baseballfan · September 16, 2008 9:40PM

<< Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - Yes
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - Tough one, pal. I could go either way.
Luis Tiant - No
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

These were the candidates announced Tuesday. The 64 living HOF'ers will vote. 48 must vote yes for induction. >>

i agree but i would wait on torre until he's finished with managing and then he goes in on the next ballot, and i think kaat is worthy
so i have torre, santo, kaat, hodges and torre when he's done with his full body of work. i think allen may be close too he was a great player that just didn't get a long with anyone.

now on to who i think they will put in santo and hodges this year

Morgoth · September 16, 2008 10:16PM

If history is any guide they will let no one in.

I think with the ground swell for Santo, he gets in. Also his health may play an issue in letting him in now versus later.

TomGshotput · September 16, 2008 10:16PM

If Jim Kaat's fielding was so great, why wasn't he able to use that great skill to prevent enough runs to give him a lower ERA? Or at least better than Tommy John and Jerry Koosman?

Johnny Mize played in more games than Dick Allen (in a 154 game schedule no less) with a higher OPS+ and he missed three prime years because he was told to fight in World War II. Through 1990 Eddie Murray had an OPS+ of 140, but had played in nearly 400 more games than Allen did, then he went on to have an additional two or three very good years. Both were better defensively

But the question is Hernandez. Not counting his last year his OPS+ is 130, while a great career, not close to an all-time great hitter like Allen. The low scoring enviornment is alreayd accounted for an OPS+, still the 70s and early 80s was not a huge step up, virtually all of that difference comes from the extra 182 homeruns. The extra 300 games makes up a little, still 182 homeruns is a pretty big total. Then consider being perhaps the best defensive first baseman in history compared to a below average defensive player is also a pretty big difference. Here is a truly outstanding, if not jumbled, evaluation of Hernandez (particularly posts #23, 28, 29, 90 and a few others): http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/keith_hernandez

I don/t see Hernandez better than Allen, but at 10 to 20 runs saved a year, it could become very close

jaxxr · September 16, 2008 10:57PM

"I don/t see Hernandez better than Allen, but at 10 to 20 runs saved a year, it could become very close"

Not trying to be confrontational at all, I am interested in how the numbr of runs saved could be so high.
An error is usually calculated by sabremen as worth .34 of run, as a negative. I know the range of Hernandez was somewhat better than Allen as well, enough to save up to 20 runs a season ?
Defense is much harder to try to evaluate properly than batting or offense in total, I am currently going over some error rate and range factor calculations, would really like an additional viewpoint.

dallasactuary · September 16, 2008 11:30PM

10 to 20 runs may be too high, or it may not. Hernandez was simply amazing at covering bunts and at digging balls out of the dirt; those look like simple assists and putouts in the record books, but those assists and putouts saved more runs than typical plays.

But I still think Allen was better than Hernandez - the hitting gap is just too big to overcome. I agree that Mize would have been better had he played those lost years, and I won't disagree with your interpretation that he WAS better based on what he would have done in those years (Bill James draws similar conclusions, but that gets so subjective I don't like to do it). Either way, Allen was easily better than over half of the first basemen in the HOF and is a no-brainer cinch for induction if not for his attitude.

Santo is the only no-brainer cinch without any qualification whatsoever.

RonBurgundy · September 16, 2008 11:31PM

I agree with Morgoth. No one other than perhaps Santo will actually get in.

No pitcher on this or any future list gets in until Blyleven's fate is decided.

jaxxr · September 17, 2008 12:14AM

"10 to 20 runs may be too high, or it may not."

Thanks for the response, however politically correct it may be, I was a bit more interested in the calculation method used to arrive at the resultant numbers.

TomGshotput · September 17, 2008 12:27AM

It requires a lot of subjectivity and guess work. The discussion I pointed to above does provides a lot of interesting details. Starting 3-6-3 double plays, taking out the lead runner on sacrifices, turning bloop hits and ground ball hits into outs, catching extra foul balls, saving errors from other infielders. How many times did Hernandez do those things over a full season? When compared to a below average fielder like Allen, it probably did add up to 20 runs during his very best years

dallasactuary · September 17, 2008 12:38AM

<< "10 to 20 runs may be too high, or it may not."

Thanks for the response, however politically correct it may be, I was a bit more interested in the calculation method used to arrive at the resultant numbers.

>>

There are formulas but, IMO, they are almost worthless. For example, any formula will give the same credit for catching a simple toss from the pitcher as stretching five feet and digging an errant throw out of the dirt. Formulas will give more credit for tossing the ball to the pitcher covering first than they will for running it to the bag yourself. I think that for more recent players, they are now trying to track plays by degree of difficulty which will be a great improvement, but those stats weren't kept for Hernandez or anyone before him.

In other words, there ARE formulas for this stuff, but none of them measure up well to actually watching the player play. When I made my comment on the 10 to 20 runs I was just thinking back to watching Hernandez on the Cardinals and trying to remember how many of those run-saving plays he probably made in a season, not comparing the numbers to any formula. If you really want to know the formulas, hoopster can no doubt find them for you.

Bill James has a whole series of formulas that he weights and combines to assess fielding, but he does not compute "runs" in any of those formulas. His system is the best out there, at least for players nobody remembers watching or kept better stats on, but it's still nowhere near as accurate as his, or others, offensive formulas.

jaxxr · September 17, 2008 1:06AM

There are many places where evaluation of defense is attempted, if any are interested here's one quite well presented;
http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2007/10/player-value-part-3a-fielding.html

Both Allen and Hernandez were above average in respect to range factor, how many balls they could get to, as compared to the average of their peers, KH by a greater margin, quite greater actually. Allen was 2 thousandths of a point below average in errors, KH was 2 thousandths of a point above average.
A simple basic view, might be Allen was average overall, while KH was above average, the question becomes how much above average ?
Without a bore filled presentation, I would figure that KH, well above average, "saves" about 8-12 runs over a typical full season , Allen would figure as about zero or neutral.
Another tough to calculate item, is the actual error effect. An error resulting in a baserunner, who never scores, is not as "bad" as a two base one, which lets in the winning run.

"there ARE formulas for this stuff, but none of them measure up well to actually watching the player play"
Very true, indeed, and to a bit lesser extent, for hitters also, hard to corectly quantify some "presense" or intangibles brought to the game by someone, like Jim Rice, for example.

mercurynut · September 17, 2008 1:43AM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - No
Gil Hodges - Yes
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - Yes
Luis Tiant - Yes
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

Brian48 · September 17, 2008 2:03AM

I'd like to see El Tiante get in. Similiar numbers to Catfish Hunter, rock solid in the clutch and big games (very Curt Schilling-like), and an incredible amount of complete games when compared to number of starts. I love Lewie.

BobaFett72 · September 17, 2008 2:37AM

Tiant has very similar numbers to Bunning and Drysdale too.

Santo has long deserved to get in.
Torre will get in as a manager.

dallasactuary · September 17, 2008 3:04AM

<< Similiar numbers to Catfish Hunter, >>

Luis Tiant's numbers are similar to Hunter's. But Tiant accomplished his in the hardest pitcher's park in the league while Hunter was in the easiest. Luis Tiant was very much better than Catfish Hunter. In fact, Tiant was nearly as good as Blyleven.

aro13 · September 17, 2008 4:30AM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - No
Dick Allen - NO
Jim Kaat - No
Luis Tiant - Yes
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

My votes are based on who I think should get in the Hall. In reality I think Santo is the only one who will get in.

Bill James has written many good articles about Allen. He is not in the Hall of Fame because despite being one of the top 50 greatest hitter's of all-time he had little value to his team. Check out who he was traded for. Eventually his teams had to get rid of him as he was such a negative influence that it offset his offensive numbers. It is more than having a bad attitude.

Connecticoin · September 17, 2008 6:03AM

I see "dallasactuary" lost a sig-line bet.

coinkat · September 17, 2008 7:49AM

Dallas...

Frank Howard managed to hit home runs that some of us older folks still talk about. While it is true that he may have lead the AL afew years in striking out, the distance of some of his HR's are legendary and that will never change. Your contact comment was not all that accurate either... he did hit .296 in 1969 with 48 HRs.

dallasactuary · September 17, 2008 9:01AM

coinkat,

just ignore my comments. I'm in the middle of several threads about Ryan Howard and when I saw your post I thought you were talking about him - my bad.

And I agree, Frank Howard was a stud (and much better than Ryan Howard).

connectcoin,

my sig line is supposed to be ironic, but since nobody even remembers the post (some nonsense about Jim Rice's total bases one season, I think) that led to it, I should probably change it back. Jim Rice sucks.

ArnyVee · September 17, 2008 1:09PM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - Yes
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - Yes
Luis Tiant - Yes
Tony Oliva - Yes
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No

Why? Cause I said so!

WinPitcher · September 17, 2008 1:10PM

Hey Arne!! How the heck are you?

Hope all is well.

Steve

ArnyVee · September 17, 2008 1:11PM

Hey Steve!

Gettin' things together....thanks for asking. I've been reading every so often, but haven't posted for awhile. Been working on my websites as well.

WinPitcher · September 17, 2008 1:12PM

ust ignore my comments. I'm in the middle of several threads about Ryan Howard and when I saw your post I thought you were talking about him - my bad.

lol

Steve

metalmike · September 17, 2008 3:19PM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - No but maybe as a annoucer
Gil Hodges - Yes
Dick Allen - No
Jim Kaat - No
Luis Tiant - No
Tony Oliva - No
Al Oliver - No
Vada Pinson - No
Maury Wills - No Others who deserve to be on the list Klu- Curt Flood (for what he did for Baseball)

Kahuna · September 18, 2008 2:55AM

Joe Torre - Yes
Ron Santo - Yes
Gil Hodges - Yes
Jim Kaat - Yes

goose3 · September 18, 2008 5:55AM

None of them.

If they were so worthy they should have been in a Long time ago.

ernie11 · September 18, 2008 6:04AM

<< None of them.

If they were so worthy they should have been in a Long time ago. >>

I kinda agree with you. None of the 10 on the list are what I would call obvious first-round HOF choices (other than Torre, but more for his managerial career, not playing career). But they are all players with good careers and they've all merited HOF consideration. At different times over the years I've leaned toward saying yes for Santo, Tiant and Hodges, but in the long run, I think the baseball writers made the right judgment keeping them out. That being said, I'm pretty certain the Vets will finally let Santo in.

StopYurWhining · September 18, 2008 9:19AM

Santo and Tiant are better then quite a few clowns in the HOF>

dallasactuary · September 18, 2008 9:27AM

<< Santo and Tiant are better then quite a few clowns in the HOF> >>

Tiant is better than "quite a few" HOFers. Santo is better than "most" HOFers. It both saddens and amazes me how many people can't see that. We've got a slug like Jim Rice getting more support than Santo despite the fact that Santo hit much better than Rice, AND was one of the greatest defensive third basemen of all time. You could take more than 100 HR away from Santo and he would STILL be a HOFer. Everybody else not in the HOF, I get why people think they don't belong. I do not get how anyone could think that Santo doesn't belong.

DeutscherGeist · September 18, 2008 6:47PM

Torre should get in as he was an excellent player and had a great managerial run with the Yankees. This is the HOF and you mean to tell me Torre is not famous? His fame comes from merit as a player and as a manager.

Dick Allen-- never knew much about him until Hoopster brought him up. As bad as his attitude was, do you think a player gets a little more consideration for being a good guy? (think of Don Mattingly). Allen was an excellent hitter, but is kept out because of playing on bad teams and being a jerk. Sportsmanship/Character is a criteria for the HOF, so maybe its OK to exclude Allen.

Ron Santo--do not know much about him, but if he is better than half the 3B in the HOF now, then he should be a lock.

Connecticoin · September 18, 2008 11:26PM

<< connectcoin,

my sig line is supposed to be ironic, but since nobody even remembers the post (some nonsense about Jim Rice's total bases one season, I think) that led to it, I should probably change it back. Jim Rice sucks. >>

I would call it sarcastic, not ironic.

jaxxr · September 18, 2008 11:35PM

"the fact that Santo hit much better than Rice,"

Because one merely says it is a "FACT" does not make it correct.
Because one actually says he hit "much better", not merely better, nor, as well as, deserves a response.

Home runs
Career= Rice 382, Santo 278, Best yr= Rice 46, Santo 33, AVE per 162 gm season= Rice 30, Santo 25, HR frequency= Rice 4.6, Santo 4.2
RBI
Career= Rice 1451, Santo 1331, Best yr=Rice 139, Santo 123, AVE per 162 gm season= Rice 113, Santo 96
BA
Career= Rice .298, Santo .277, Best yr= Rice .325, Santo .313
OPS+
Career= Rice 128, Santo 125, Best yr= Rice 157, Santo 164
Runs Created
Career= Rice 1384, Santo 1354, Best yr= Rice 147, Santo 127, AVE= Rice 6.0, Santo 5.9
Runs scored
Career= Rice 1249, Santo 1138, Best yr= Rice 121, Santo 107, AVE= Rice 97, Santo 82

Those are some pretty good indicators of "hit" skill, not every single possibility ever known, but pretty good regardless. The amount of times the two were actually the league leader, the number of times they bettered their peers, actually were the best among their peers in the aforementioned stats = Rice 7, Santo 0

coinkat · September 19, 2008 7:10AM

Tiant is better than "quite a few" HOFers. Santo is better than "most" HOFers. It both saddens and amazes me how many people can't see that.

agreed

HOF Veterans Committee puts up 10 names for consideration.

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