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POLL- Football Future HOF Rookie Players - Senior Set- 2008 Additions

JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
in PSA Set Registry Forum
Alright gents. Time to vote for this years additons (if any) to the Future HOF RC- Senior set.

I am going to post a list of possible additions, and will request the addition of any player who receives 50% of the vote. If anyone has additional player requests, post here and I will keep a running tally of all the votes.

Will only count votes from those of you who actually collect the Senior set, currently 22 of us.

OK here is my list and reasons I have these guys listed:

These 4 have been senior semi-finalist (final 15 Seniors) at least once in the past 6 years:

John Brodie, QB
Pete Retzlaff, TE
Ed Sprinkle, DE
Al Wistert, OT

These 3 have all been SENIOR FINALISTS , Goldberg has been a 2-time Senior selection, the other 2 were Senior selections in the past, but did not receive the 80% required for induction:

Marshall Goldberg, RB
Willie Galimore, RB
Lou Rymkus, OT

These 2 were MODERN FINALISTS, each only one time finalist in the past:

Beattie Feathers, RB
Rosey Grier, DT

These are guys who have not made the final 15 senior semi-finalists, but IMO have worthy resumes and could be inducted in the future:

Dick Barwegan, OG- 4 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All-Pro, All-Decade 1950's, 2nd Team
Gene Brito, DE- 5 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All-Pro
Bobby Dillon, CB- 4 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All-Pro
Joe Fortunato, OLB- 5 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All-Pro, All-Decade 1950's, 2nd Team
Jim Patton, S- 5 Pro Bowls, 5 first team All-Pro
Drew Pearson, WR- 3 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All-Pro, All-Decade 1970's, 1st Team
Del Shofner, WR- 5 Pro Bowls, 5 first team All-Pro

Other requested additions:
Larry Grantham, OLB- 5 AFL Pro Bowls, 5 first team All-AFL, All-Time AFL 2nd Team

My votes to add:

John Brodie-1
Al Wistert- 1
Drew Pearson- 1

Will run this poll through the weekend and finalize on Monday. I'll keep the running tally as the votes come in.

Jason


I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
«1

Comments

  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭✭
    I am actually going to cast a vote to keep the set as is.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • cardbendercardbender Posts: 1,831 ✭✭
    I know enough about the players, but I don't officially have my set listed. I collect all the Football rookies however. I guess my vote won't count.
  • PubliusPublius Posts: 1,306 ✭✭
    Good list. Do you mind if we add as we go along?

    John Brodie-2
    Al Wistert- 2
    Drew Pearson- 2
    Dick Barwegan-1
    Del Shofner-1
    Larry Grantham-1


    My Steve Largent Master Set
  • recbballrecbball Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭
    Ed Sprinkle
    Willie Galimore
    Beattie Feathers
    Joe Fortunato

    Yes, I know I'm biased, lol.
  • SooperDaveSooperDave Posts: 117
    My Votes Are:
    John Brodie
    Drew Pearson
    It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them-Adlai Stevenson
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I know enough about the players, but I don't officially have my set listed. I collect all the Football rookies however. I guess my vote won't count. >>



    Cardbender,

    I think most of us here are well aware of your expertise in the football arena. Maybe you could provide a short write up on the guys you think are deserving. Even though your votes won't count, you could probably help some of the guys like Dave get a better feel for why certain guys are deserving. Whoever gets requested for addition to PSA is going to have a poll sent out to the actual collector's of the set anyway, so seems only fair to get opnions from the guys who will be doing the "official" voting in the weeks ahead.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭✭
    Just my opinion, but if Hayes gets in this year as expected I think Pearson will have a helluva long wait to get in - if ever.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • MeteoriteGuyMeteoriteGuy Posts: 7,140 ✭✭
    I would think any all-decade member should be in the HOF.
    Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards.
    Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Just my opinion, but if Hayes gets in this year as expected I think Pearson will have a helluva long wait to get in - if ever. >>



    I disagree...These guys played in different eras...Hayes last year starting for the Cowboys was 1973, and Pearson's first year was 1974...

    Hayes being selected this year will push ALL Cowboys back a year or two, but IMO getting Hayes in (he will be the FIRST Senior WR elected since Tommy McDonald in 1998) will open up the other WR eligible guys to maybe get a better look. Otis Taylor will be the top 1960's WR candidate on the board and Pearson the top 1970's candidate. Harold Carmichael and Isaac Curtis will join the senior pool after this year and then Cliff Branch after next year. This will give Pearson some contemporaries for comparison from his era, and in my personal judgement is the best of that group, with Cliff Branch a close 2nd...

    If/when the senior committee decides to put in THE 2ND BEST WR of the 1970's (according to the HOF committee circa 1980) Pearson will be the glaring ommission.

    That won't happen next year for sure, and more than likely not the year after that...But I could certainly see them putting Pearson into the HOF at some point within the next few years. Just depends on what era the committee is looking at pushing for that year.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I disagree...These guys played in different eras...Hayes last year starting for the Cowboys was 1973, and Pearson's first year was 1974... >>



    I'm not saying that's how it should be or that I agree with it, but I think the voters would want to space out Cowboys WRs getting into the HOF regardless of era. Plus it's bad enough Hayes looks like he's getting in. Do we really need TWO undeserving Cowboys WRs in Canton? image
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I disagree...These guys played in different eras...Hayes last year starting for the Cowboys was 1973, and Pearson's first year was 1974... >>



    I'm not saying that's how it should be or that I agree with it, but I think the voters would want to space out Cowboys WRs getting into the HOF regardless of era. Plus it's bad enough Hayes looks like he's getting in. Do we really need TWO undeserving Cowboys WRs in Canton? image >>



    Let's look back historically at Senior candidates by team and how close their selections were...

    Cowboys- 2009- Bob Hayes, 2006- Rayfield Wright, 2004- Bob Hayes
    Packers- 1997- Jerry Kramer, 1995- Henry Jordan
    Lions- 1996- Lou Creemur, 1993- Dick Stanfel (these two were teammates on the same Offensive Line)

    As you can see, while the committee does like to spread the wealth, it isn't going to push a guy back 20 years simply because someone from the same franchise or same position was inducted.

    Opinions among us on who are worthy and who are not are plentiful. In the end, only the actual HOF committee's votes count. How many WR's are IN the HOF who played the majority of their career in the 1970's?

    1- Charley Taylor--70-77
    2- Paul Warfield--70-77
    3- Fred Biletnikoff--70-78
    4- Charlie Joiner--70-79
    5- Lynn Swann--74-79

    That's it...Pearson played 73-79...During the 1970's, here are your FIRST TEAM ALL-PRO WRs:

    70--Gene Washington, Dick Gordon
    71--Paul Warfield, Otis Taylor
    72--Gene Washington, Fred Biletnikoff
    73--Paul Warfield, Harold Jackson
    74--Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch
    75--Mel Gray, Cliff Branch
    76--Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch
    77--Drew Pearson, Nat Moore
    78--Lynn Swann, Wesley Walker
    79--John Stallworth, John Jefferson

    Is there any WR more highly decorated in the decade NOT in the HOF???

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    Are there any players that should be removed from the set?

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Are there any players that should be removed from the set? >>



    From the Senior Set? No, not IMO. But if you or someone else wants to nominate someone you think doesn't belong, we will go with majority vote.

    From the modern set though, if Steve At-water doesn't make the top 25 again this year, I think he should be considered for removal. The modern set is geared more towards guys that are either locks or at least better than 50-50 shot at HOF induction and this will be the 5th straight year he hasn't even made the top 25, while there are others (Charles Haley) who have made the top 25 numerous times and aren't on the set. I know we vote here based on our own opinions, but if we want to be realistic, we should take how the HOF voters are voting into context and that should carry the heaviest weight.

    If At-water were a senior candidate he'd be an excellent choice for this set. Simply because it's much more speculative in nature. All players who are essentially long shots because they never got inducted in 20 years of being a modern candidate, but are none the less deserving. At-water is deserving IMO, but he's getting about as much recognition from the voters as Ricky Watters..Which is zero...LeRoy Butler could run into the same problem in a few years, as he's never even made the top 25 modern finalists yet in his first 2 tries..This will only be his third year on the ballot.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    With my votes added

    Running Tally:

    Total voters: 6

    John Brodie-4
    Drew Pearson- 4
    Al Wistert- 3
    Dick Barwegan-1
    Beattie Feathers -1
    Joe Fortunato-1
    Willie Galimore-1
    Larry Grantham-1
    Del Shofner-1
    Ed Sprinkle-1
    Marshall Goldberg-1

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭
    My votes are:

    John Brodie
    Drew Pearson
    Marshall Goldberg
    Al Wistert
    Del Shofner (it amazes me how overlooked he is...he was a five x pro bowl and 1st team all pro w/i a 6 or 7 year span...talk about dominating)

    I'm on the fence about Brito, Grantham and Patton...I'll think about them and re-post if I change my mind.

    Wasn't Gene Brito on the 50's all decade team?

    Greg M.
    Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

    References:
    Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
    E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭

    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Del Shofner (it amazes me how overlooked he is...he was a five x pro bowl and 1st team all pro w/i a 6 or 7 year span...talk about dominating)

    I'm on the fence about Brito, Grantham and Patton...I'll think about them and re-post if I change my mind.

    Wasn't Gene Brito on the 50's all decade team?

    Greg M. >>



    I agree with you on Shofner. I've brought him up many times in the past. He doesn't even get as much recognition as Billy Wilson who played around the same time frame, late 50's to early 60's...

    No Brito wasn't selected to any All-Decade team that I know of. On Grantham, he had all of his success in the early AFL years which hurts him as the talent level early on there was akin to the USFL. Patton is another very overlooked guy, but he played Safety which is already one of the toughest positions to gain HOF recognition at...

    2 votes for Goldberg which is somewhat surprising as he's already had 2 shots as a senior finalist and the committee has never elected a guy a third time. Doesn't mean it is impossible, but Goldberg wasn't even in the discussion this year...It would be unprecedented if he were to ever come up for election again.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • SKINSFANSKINSFAN Posts: 1,032
    Gregg io think you are thinking about Gene Britto on the all Redskins team

    If you have Branch on the list you have to have Pearson

    Patton or Dillon have no shot in my opinion the postion they played will have them overlooked for ever same with Pete Retzlaff cant see a TE from that era going in Goldberg is toast and should never have been there to start with.
    Fortunato and Shofner have to many guys around of them at there position

    So I SO THE GUYS WHO MAY REALLY HAVE A SHOT ARE (DRUM ROLL PLEASE )

    Pearson
    Wistert
    Brodie
    The above get my vote

    Long term hopefulls but NOT VOTING FOR RIGHT NOW

    Britto
    Barwegan

    If Hayes makes it as a game changer and in my opinion that is the only reason he will you have to look at the next game changer at wide out, The 1st real big wr Harold Carmichael 1 of the best battles in the game in the 70,s was Carmichael @ Pat Fisher was classic to see them tangle with so a huge differance in size.
  • recbballrecbball Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭
    I have to defend my Chicago bear picks:

    Ed Sprinkle:

    All-Pro
    1949 - Int. News Service: 1st team all-NFL/AAFC
    1949 - NY Daily News: 2nd team all-NFL
    1949 - UPI: 2nd team all-NFL
    1950 - NY Daily News: 1st team all-NFL
    1951 - NY Daily News: 2nd team all-NFL
    1951 - UPI: 2nd team all-NFL
    1952 - Associated Press: 2nd team all-NFL
    1954 - Associated Press: 2nd team all-NFL

    Pro Bowl: 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954

    NFL 1940's All-Decade Team


    Joe Fortunato:

    All-Pro TeamsGlossary
    1958 - NY Daily News: 2nd team all-NFL
    1962 - Associated Press: 2nd team all-NFL
    1963 - Associated Press: 1st team all-NFL
    1963 - Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st team all-NFL
    1963 - NY Daily News: 1st team all-NFL
    1963 - UPI: 1st team all-NFL
    1964 - Sporting News: 1st team all-conf.
    1964 - Associated Press: 1st team all-NFL
    1964 - Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st team all-NFL
    1964 - NY Daily News: 1st team all-NFL
    1964 - UPI: 1st team all-NFL
    1965 - Associated Press: 1st team all-NFL
    1965 - Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st team all-NFL
    1965 - NY Daily News: 2nd team all-NFL
    1965 - UPI: 2nd team all-NFL
    1966 - NY Daily News: 2nd team all-NFL

    Pro Bowls: 1958, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965

    1950's All-Decade Team


    Beattie Feathers was an all pro two times, 1934 (1st team) and 1936 (2nd Team) and is on the 1930's All-Decade team.


    Willie Galimore was an all-pro 2nd team in 1957 and 1958 making the pro-bowl in 1958.
    He was killed in an automobile accident on July 27, 1964 in Rensselaer, Indiana at the age of 29 with teammate Bo Farrington. His number 28 has been retired by the Bears


  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭

    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • BillsGridironGreatsBillsGridironGreats Posts: 719 ✭✭✭
    Add a vote to:

    Brodie
    Wistert
    Pearson
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    That should pretty much seal Brodie, Pearson and Wistert to be added..

    Dave

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That should pretty much seal Brodie, Pearson and Wistert to be added..

    Dave >>



    Looking that way...Here are those RCs:

    1948 Leaf #28 Al "Whitey" Wistert
    1961 Fleer #59 John Brodie
    1975 Topps #65 Drew Pearson

    Anyone have a Brodie PSA 8 for sale??lol

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,526 ✭✭✭✭
    I am not as familiar about some of the guys mentioned. Have not seen FB films of them....so I can only go by stats.
    I would vote for Larry grantham and Del Shofner...based on hier 1st team all pro/afl dominance.
    I wish I knew more and could participate better than this.

    Based on that I would also like to nominate pete Banazak, Marv Hubbard, and Otis Sistrunk.
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Based on that I would also like to nominate pete Banazak, Marv Hubbard, and Otis Sistrunk. >>



    Hmm..Let me guess...Raiders fan??? lolol

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,526 ✭✭✭✭
    gees jason
    my sick sense of humor......feel free to exclude the 3 raiders......I was only kidding
    You were probably scratching your head wondering WHAT!!!!
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>gees jason
    my sick sense of humor......feel free to exclude the 3 raiders......I was only kidding
    You were probably scratching your head wondering WHAT!!!! >>



    I know, I thought it was pretty funny actually...So I added them to the list...lol

    YOUR VOTES COUNT!!!!

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    My votes:

    John Brodie
    Al Wistert
    Drew Pearson
    Marshall Goldberg
    Jimmy Patton
    Maxie Baughan (just because)

  • bcd33bcd33 Posts: 152
    I vote:

    Drew Pearson, WR- 3 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All-Pro, All-Decade 1970's, 1st Team
    Del Shofner, WR- 5 Pro Bowls, 5 first team All-Pro

    My Football Card Collection {Still Scanning}
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm curious, what's the fascination with Drew Pearson? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I know there's a reason why he's received as many votes as he has. I'm just wondering why. The All-Pro and All-Decade selections could be two reasons, but they don't carry nearly as much weight with me as others. I think there's a lot of politics involved in those selections (just like with HOF voting). Pearson to me was your classic good, not great, WR. Just like Cliff Branch. Compare Pearson's stats to Harold Jackson:

    Pearson
    156 Games 489 Receptions 7,822 Yards 48 TDs 3 Pro Bowls
    Top 5 in receiving yards 3 times (led the league once) and in receptions twice

    Jackson
    208 Games 579 Receptions 10,372 Yards 76 TDs 5 Pro Bowls
    Top 5 in receiving yards 3 times (led the league twice) and in receptions twice (led the league once)

    I'm not promoting Jackson for the HOF. I'm pointing out just one player who played during the same era as Pearson who was clearly superior from a statistical standpoint. Since they played in the same era, I think this is a good apples to apples comparison. And I don't think we can fault Jackson for having played longer. He was pretty good until his last year or 2 when he was still a serviceable player.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Pearson was better than his stat line, ala Bob Hayes..Jackson was a compiler, his stats make him look better than he was ala Charlie Joiner...

    Just as you say, a lot of politics are involved...The All-Pro and All-Decade selections are actually the things THAT CARRY THE MOST WEIGHT with the HOF selectors along with championships/Super Bowls...The stats and the Pro Bowls don't matter quite as much to most of the voters. Stats tend to have many other variables involved while you can judge a players "art" by how he plays down-to-down.

    Here's a good way to relate it..When the Academy Awards are announced every year, the movies that earn the most money aren't the ones that win best picture. The voters put more value on the art and substance rather than the sheer numbers...Pearson never got in as a modern candidate, none of these guys did..Mostly because of political reasons and disagreements between NUMBERS voters and the ART/SUBSTANCE voters...Same with Bob Hayes, same with Art Monk for the opposite reason...

    IMO, Pearson is the best 70's WR in the senior pool. Not only that, but he is the only SKILL PLAYER that was selected as a FIRST TEAM All-decade player from the 70's who isn't in the HOF yet...Not only do I think he is deserving, but I also base my vote mostly on what I feel the voters will do in the future. Eventually the senior selectors will look for a SKILL PLAYER from the 70's era, and other than maybe Ken Stabler down the road, I don;t see any others even close to Pearson. He has a great shot to be selected in the future.

    Jason

    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Good article oh Whitey Wistert...

    Perhaps Al “Whitey” Wistert is the most deserving former NFL player who is not in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Unlike running backs, quarterbacks and wide receivers, Wistert has no appreciable stats — unless you count making All-Pro every year of his career with the exception of his rookie season.

    As a rookie out of the University of Michigan in 1943, Wistert (taken by the Philadelphia Eagles in the fifth round) found out he wasn’t an Eagle after all. Because of World War II’s manpower shortage, the Eagles combined with the Pittsburgh Steelers to form the “Steagles.” Though not a formal nickname — officially the combination was “Philadelphia-Pittsburgh” or “Phil-Pitt,” the press just loved the contraction and used it profusely, and Wistert found himself to be a fledgling Steagle.

    In 1944, the Eagles were back to being just the Eagles. Wistert had made a great impact on the team as a rookie and further burnished his reputation as a two-way tackle the next season, when Philly moved from pretender to contender.

    One of three brothers of a Lithuanian family in Chicago, all of whom earned All-America honors with the Maize and Blue, Wistert pioneered what was a new blocking technique. By using a shoulder block, instead of the old-fashioned cross-body block, Wistert was able to stay on his feet.

    “I thought if I could keep my feet, I could help by making another block farther downfield,” Wistert said recently. “Not many others used the technique.”

    Wistert went on to say that, as the Eagles became more comfortable with the method, the effects were amazing. He cited Joe Muha and Jack “Moose” Myers, both fullbacks, as “two of the very best. They added punch to our offense.”

    By this time, such storied names as Bucko Kilroy, Tommy Thompson, Steve Van Buren, Bosh Pritchard, and two “sandlotters” — Duke Maronic and Jack Ferrante — were the core of the Eagles.

    Like many linemen, Wistert thought running with the football was easier than blocking. However, he says that his only time as a ballcarrier was less than spectacular.

    “Bosh (Pritchard) was about to be tackled, so he flipped the ball to me, but the way the defense pounced on me, I knew I was better off at tackle,” he said. “That pigskin surely attracted a crowd of angry young men.”

    By 1947, the quality players mentioned and the coaching of Earle “Greasy” Neale had the Eagles in the thick of the Eastern Conference race. After soundly defeating the Steelers in a playoff, next up, for the world championship, were the Chicago Cardinals and their “Dream Backfield” — QB Paul Christman, HB Charley Trippi, HB Elmer Angsman and FB Pat Harder. The title game would be played in blustery Chicago — Wistert’s hometown.

    “Now, we’re in Chicago, and I know Chicago weather in December,” Wistert remembered. “I was shocked to see there was no field-cover. I asked a groundskeeper what was up. He said, ‘No cover. It’s a weekend and we’d have to pay the crew double-time.’

    “I knew the combination of freeze-and-thaw wouldn’t help our ground game. Steve (Van Buren — when one talks to an Eagle from that era, it would be heresy to ask, ‘Steve who?’) and Bosh wouldn’t be able to get much traction.”

    Although the Eagles all wore longer “mud cleats,” Pritchard decided to go a step further: “Bosh took a file and created a sharper cleat that would work. And it did — for a while,” Wistert said.

    One of the Cardinals got cut by the sharpened cleat and reported it to the referee: “They picked a great time to protest,” he said. “The five-yard penalty pinned us deep. Joe (Muha) got off a booming punt, but Charley Trippi ran it all the way back, 75 yards, to score!”

    Trippi had the kind of day that would lead directly to Canton, Ohio. He also had a 44-yard run from scrimmage for another score.

    Wistert and his mates may have lost the 1947 title game, 28-21, but in succeeding years, they accomplished what no other team has — they won back-to-back (1948 and 1949) championships by shutouts! First, over the Cardinals in a rematch, 7-0, and then over the Los Angeles Rams, 14-0.

    While Thompson and “Steve” got most of the headlines, Wistert was the team leader. Very early in his career he was named team captain. He was also the one Neale called on to provide motivation. His mates credit him with getting them to refocus before the 1949 title game with the Rams.

    Wistert played no high school football — just sandlot ball: “The vacant lots of Chicago were called ‘prairies.’ We played our games on such lots. ‘Prairie League’ is what they called it.”

    Wistert’s father was a Spanish-American War veteran and may well have ridden with Teddy Roosevelt’s Rough Riders. He was later killed in the line of duty as a Chicago police officer. Working and earning money were more important to the Wistert family than playing scholastic football.

    Al’s older brother Francis — also known as Whitey — was the first to matriculate at Michigan. Both he and Al earned All-America honors with the Wolverines. Later, brother Alvin, who was actually older than Al, used his World War II G.I. Bill to attend Michigan and become the third Wistert All-America Michigan tackle.

    As a pro, much more could not have been asked of Al Wistert. He practically invented the shoulder block, made the All-Pro team in eight of his nine seasons and was the heart and soul of an early NFL dynasty.

    Like World War II veterans, NFL vets of that time — many of whom also served in the military — are becoming fewer and fewer. Wouldn’t it be only fitting if whatever honors they have coming could be bestowed while they are still here to enjoy them?
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • PubliusPublius Posts: 1,306 ✭✭


    << <i>My votes:

    John Brodie
    Al Wistert
    Drew Pearson
    Marshall Goldberg
    Jimmy Patton
    Maxie Baughan (just because) >>



    I would second Maxie B, good call Mohawk MF'er image

    Goldberg, really? I agree with jason, I doubt we'll ever see him come up again for consideration.


    Drew Pearson- 9
    John Brodie-8
    Al Wistert- 7
    Del Shofner-4
    Marshall Goldberg-3
    Larry Grantham-2
    Maxie Baughan- 2
    Pete Banazak- 1
    Dick Barwegan-1
    Beattie Feathers -1
    Joe Fortunato-1
    Willie Galimore-1
    Marv Hubbard- 1
    Jimmy Patton- 1
    Otis Sistrunk- 1
    Ed Sprinkle-1
    My Steve Largent Master Set
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Oh, and lest I forget...

    I also cast a vote for Winston Hill. I may be the only one, but he deserves consideration as well.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Oh, and lest I forget...

    I also cast a vote for Winston Hill. I may be the only one, but he deserves consideration as well. >>



    I'll join the Winston Hill bandwagon. I also put in a vote for Otto Schnellbacher.

    Greg M.
    Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

    References:
    Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
    E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Total voters: 12

    Drew Pearson- 9
    John Brodie-8
    Al Wistert- 7
    Del Shofner-4
    Marshall Goldberg-3
    Maxie Baughan- 2
    Larry Grantham-2
    Winston Hill-2
    Pete Banazak- 1
    Dick Barwegan-1
    Beattie Feathers -1
    Joe Fortunato-1
    Willie Galimore-1
    Marv Hubbard- 1
    Jimmy Patton- 1
    Otto Schnellbacher-1
    Otis Sistrunk- 1
    Ed Sprinkle-1

    Final day of voting today. Will e-mail Gayle and Cosetta tomorrow with the requested additions of anyone with 50% of the votes. Most likely will still have to run an official poll of all the set collectors.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭
    Come on everyone...only 2 more votes for Shofner!!!

    Greg M.
    Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

    References:
    Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
    E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll vote for Shofner, Harold Jackson and Ken Riley.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭

    I added a vote for Ken Riley as well...IMO, the greatest player to never be selected to a Pro Bowl, and I think that might actually HELP his chances down the road...

    Overshadowed most of his career by Lemar Parrish, who rightly should be inducted BEFORE Ken Riley...But Riley was a top CB for 14 years with the Bengals...On a big market team he could have easily been a shutdown, widely popular guy...Parrish was the Deion of his day, Ken Riley was the Aeneas Williams...

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Come on everyone...only 2 more votes for Shofner!!!

    Greg M. >>



    Greg, make the case for Shofner..He's a guy I really like and have touted in the past, but I just don't think the voters will ever consider him...Convince me otherwise, and i'll vote for him..I already know about the 5 1st Team All-Pro's, but the alternate to that argument is who was he selected over during those years?

    Shofner was a first team NFL All-Pro from 1958-1963, only missing selection in 1960. The other first team All-Pros during those years included:

    Del Shofner- 5 times
    Ray Berry- 3 times
    Sonny Randle- 1 time
    Red Phillips- 1 time
    Bobby Mitchell- 1 time
    Bobby Joe Conrad- 1 times

    Other HOF WRs playing in the NFL (no AFL guys included) during those years:

    Tommy McDonald
    Bobby Mitchell (didn't switch to WR until the 1962 season)

    See, this is what I've always read that has hurt his HOF chances...I guess you could make the case that he was as good as, if not better than Tommy McDonald. McDonald was never a first team All-Pro, BUT..McDonald was a solid player for 10 years, 1958-1967. You look at Shofner, and he was really good from 1958-1963 with the exception of 1960..But that's it..Other than those 5 years, he never had more than 388 yards receiving in a season...That hurts him as well...

    Make a good case, as I want to present Shofner as a question to one of the HOF voters that i know and get his take...

    It seems some of the voting here are for favorites or whatever and that's all fine and dandy. But we want to ensure we are voting for guys we think have a good shot at HOF induction as a senior candidate. That's what this set is meant to be..Cards of players who we think will possibly be elected to the Pro Football HOF. Just want to make sure we are all keeping that in mind as we vote.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Comments on Shofner directly from 2 SENIOR HOF voters:

    "Jason. He wasn't great long enough."

    And

    "Shofner was a all-decade selection in the 1960s and deserves to be discussed for the Hall of Fame. Gary Collins and Boyd Dowler also were all-decade performers in the 1960s who deserve to be discussed. If you were one of the best players of your generation, you deserve to be discussed among the best players of all time. Unfortunately for all 3 of those guys, with the explosion of receiving numbers in the last 10-15-20 years, they will never get the credit for being good players that they were. Nor are they likely to be discussed. Their window of opportunity would have been from about 1975-85. It came and went and their names never came up."

    Food for thought..I'll have to pass on voting him to the set based on this.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Final results......

    Total voters: 12

    Drew Pearson- 9
    John Brodie-8
    Al Wistert- 7
    Del Shofner-5
    Marshall Goldberg-3
    Maxie Baughan- 2
    Larry Grantham-2
    Winston Hill-2
    Ken Riley- 2
    Pete Banazak- 1
    Dick Barwegan-1
    Beattie Feathers -1
    Joe Fortunato-1
    Willie Galimore-1
    Marv Hubbard- 1
    Harold Jackson- 1
    Jimmy Patton- 1
    Otto Schnellbacher-1
    Otis Sistrunk- 1
    Ed Sprinkle-1

    Cards I will request addition of for this year:

    1948 Leaf #28 Al "Whitey" Wistert
    1961 Fleer #59 John Brodie
    1975 Topps #65 Drew Pearson
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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