Why the prices people pay for PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards are insane...

11235813 · August 27, 2008 12:41PM

Time for me to start another controversial thread and stir up some discussion

IMHO, the prices being paid for PSA 9's and PSA 10's in relationship to PSA 8's are absolutely insane. Generally speaking, PSA 9's sell for roughly 10x PSA 8's, and PSA 10's sell for roughly 10x PSA 9's, meaning that PSA 10's generally sell for roughly 100x PSA 8's, despite the fact that you often need a microscope to tell the difference in condition.

Take a hypothetical card that sell for around $100 in PSA 8. It probably sells for around $1000 in PSA 9 and around $10,000 in PSA 10. Now lets say you found a copy of said hypothetical card in each of the three stated grades, cracked them all out of their holders, and displayed them raw (without any mention of their former PSA grades) at the aforementioned prices.

Card #1 with a price tag of $100
Card #2 with a price tag of $1000
Card #3 with a price tag of $10,000

You'd get laughed at. Plain and simple. While people might be willing to pay a small premium for the two nicer cards, it wouldn't be very much because people would see that in reality each of the two nicer cards was not that much nicer than the next nicest card.

The nicest card (i.e. the former PSA 10) might sell for $200-$300 raw. The next nicest card (the former PSA 9) might sell for $125-$200. The worst of the three cards (i.e. the former PSA 8), would probably sell for $75-$125.

Now people may ask what is the point of this little hypothetical exercise. My point is to illustrate how people are being lured into paying ridiculous premiums for minute improvements in card quality by the artifical scarcity created by the grading companies.

There isn't a PSA 10 out there that is 100 times nicer than a corresponding PSA 8, nor are there PSA 10's out there that are 10 times nicer than corresponding PSA 9's or PSA 9's out there that are 10 times nicer than corresponding PSA 8's. Yet people are being fooled into paying ridiculous sums of money for super-high grade cards because they perceive them to be scarce based on the grade on the label, when in fact they really aren't.

Should PSA 9's and 10's sell for a premium over PSA 8's? Yes. Should these premiums be as large as they are now? No way.

mikelowell25 · August 27, 2008 12:45PM

well said!!!

detroitfan2 · August 27, 2008 12:50PM

PLEASE everybody, don't do it. Just don't. Maybe then it will stop.

ajmoeller81 · August 27, 2008 12:57PM

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

swartz1 · August 27, 2008 12:59PM

MHO, the prices being paid for PSA 9's and PSA 10's in relationship to PSA 8's are absolutely insane. Generally speaking, PSA 9's sell for roughly 10x PSA 8's, and PSA 10's sell for roughly 10x PSA 9's, meaning that PSA 10's generally sell for roughly 100x PSA 8's, despite the fact that you often need a microscope to tell the difference in condition.

I disagree...

grote15 · August 27, 2008 1:02PM

The set registry bears much of the blame for the inflated card values. There are many card collectors with very deep pockets and very large egos who don't mind spending a boatload of cash in pursuit for the finest and scarcest set. To many of these collectors, $1000 is like $100 to you or me, so they don't view the economic argument in this light.

11235813 · August 27, 2008 1:03PM

Swartz1,

Care to elaborate on why you disagree. I would be interested in hearing a coherent counterargument...

Matt

dizzle · August 27, 2008 1:09PM

You need a microscope to see a difference between a 8 and 10?

uniship · August 27, 2008 1:10PM

who cares about the CARD? it's all about the number baby! get with the program.

storm888 · August 27, 2008 1:12PM

"There isn't a PSA 10 out there that is 100 times nicer than a corresponding PSA 8, nor are there PSA 10's out there that are 10 times nicer than corresponding PSA 9's or PSA 9's out there that are 10 times nicer than corresponding PSA 8's."

////////////////////////////////

Faulty math from a math wiz.

You have mixed "nicer" with "costlier" and tried to tie a one/one tail on it.

An item that is "one-point nicer" may, since the market decides, bring 100,000,000,000,000 times
more than a like item that is ONLY "one-point lesser." (There is no fixed-formula; only a little
past pattern that is not absolutely predictive.)

The quest for the perfect item has to be helped along by "experts" using numbers to tell the
market "how close to perfect" such an item is.

10s, properly graded, are nicer than 8s and 9s. On down the number scale, the same is true.

Being a diamond-flogger, I fully understand "perceived scarcity." The perception of scarcity in
super high-grade vintage cards - coins, currency, stamps, too - is largely well founded; certainly
so when compared to diamonds.

Folks who don't like graded cards should not buy them.

CDsNuts · August 27, 2008 1:12PM

The coherent counter-argument is that whether you like it or not, people are paying ridiculous prices for high grade cards. At this point you have three choices:

1) Accept this as a fact, and rather than question it every second of your life, think about how you can use it to your advantage.

2) Leave the hobby because it turns you off so much.

3) Remain in the hobby, not care about what other people are spending their money on and concentrate on your own collection.

4) Remain in the hobby and complain about it incessantly until people get tired of hearing you speak.

Clearly you have chosen option #4.

storm888 · August 27, 2008 1:14PM

<< PLEASE everybody, don't do it. Just don't. Maybe then it will stop. >>

........

grote15 · August 27, 2008 1:15PM

If you think the difference between a PSA 9 and a PSA 10 is huge, take a look at the value difference between some of the MS-64 and MS-65 Morgan Dollars! And that's with a 70-point grading scale!

stevek · August 27, 2008 1:15PM

This same basic premise is true with most all other collectables - Nothing new or different here.

stevek · August 27, 2008 1:17PM

<< If you think the difference between a PSA 9 and a PSA 10 is huge, take a look at the value difference between some of the MS-64 and MS-65 Morgan Dollars! And that's with a 70-point grading scale! >>

I hate it when somebody has my same basic idea and gets the post in right before me.

Stone193 · August 27, 2008 1:19PM

Guy with numbers for name.

With all due respect - don't you find any joy in this hobby?

If I want to debate - I'll go on a web and discuss politics or something.

Come on - grab a long neck Bud - and have fun.
mike

mknez · August 27, 2008 1:20PM

I don't see a 10X spike in the cards I track and collect, but maybe that's because they are older.
For example:
52 topps Mantle
PSA 7 = 32K
PSA 8 = 98K
PSA 9 = 282

56 Mantle
PSA 7 = 1.5K
PSA 8 = 2.5K
PSA 9 = 11K

60 Mantle
PSA 7 = $500
PSA 8 = $1000
PSA 9 = $8000

65 Mantle
PSA 7 = $570
PSA 8 = $1,150
PSA 9 = $3,500

MeteoriteGuy · August 27, 2008 1:25PM

<< I don't see a 10X spike in the cards I track and collect, but maybe that's because they are older.
For example:
52 topps Mantle
PSA 7 = 32K
PSA 8 = 98K
PSA 9 = 282

56 Mantle
PSA 7 = 1.5K
PSA 8 = 2.5K
PSA 9 = 11K

60 Mantle
PSA 7 = $500
PSA 8 = $1000
PSA 9 = $8000

65 Mantle
PSA 7 = $570
PSA 8 = $1,150
PSA 9 = $3,500 >>

The difference is much less on the modern side. 1123...et al, apparently has his own math scale.

If you don't care for third party grading, you should avoid all things that are treated such ways. That would be food, water, homes, cars, et al. Grading is just as subjective in these fields and every other.

itzagoner · August 27, 2008 1:37PM

could someone help me find the controversial thread?

bobbybakeriv · August 27, 2008 1:38PM

It is a free market. Please accept it. If you don't want to pay "insane" prices for PSA 9s and 10s.....ummmmm, don't.

11235813 · August 27, 2008 1:49PM

Don't worry, I accept it.

The amatuer psychologist in me just happens to think that it's highly irrational...

Matt

CDsNuts · August 27, 2008 1:54PM

People pay $1,000 for steaks, $10k on bottles of wine, $10k on hookers, $50k on dresses, $20k on handbags...............

jeffcbay · August 27, 2008 1:56PM

<< Don't worry, I accept it.

The amatuer psychologist in me just happens to think that it's highly irrational...

Matt >>

My question for you Mr. "amatuer" speller, is why your screen name refers to a 2001 Topps Chrome Traded #T247 Albert Pujols PSA 9... is there something you're not telling us? Come now, share your feelings with the group...

MeteoriteGuy · August 27, 2008 1:57PM

<< Don't worry, I accept it.

The amatuer psychologist in me just happens to think that it's highly irrational...

Matt >>

And yet this is what the 12th thread you have started like this? I think the amateur psychologist in you should talk to the other you about what the word acceptance means.

BobaFett72 · August 27, 2008 2:12PM

I will never overpay for a card simply because its in plastic. I will agree that the price you pay for minute differences is insane. Clearly the satisfaction one gets from owning a piece of plastic with a higher number on it outweighs the joy of holding an actual piece of cardboard in their hand. With folks competing for status on the registry such irrational behavior is expected.

Estil · August 27, 2008 2:56PM

<< It is a free market. Please accept it. If you don't want to pay "insane" prices for PSA 9s and 10s.....ummmmm, don't. >>

Not only accept it, but have faith in it. After all, remember when even 1980s PSA 10 key RC's were easily selling for over $1000 several years ago? Not the case today.

WeekendHacker · August 27, 2008 3:11PM

<< The coherent counter-argument is that whether you like it or not, people are paying ridiculous prices for high grade cards. At this point you have three choices:

1) Accept this as a fact, and rather than question it every second of your life, think about how you can use it to your advantage.

2) Leave the hobby because it turns you off so much.

3) Remain in the hobby, not care about what other people are spending their money on and concentrate on your own collection.

4) Remain in the hobby and complain about it incessantly until people get tired of hearing you speak.

Clearly you have chosen option #4. >>

Lee, you crack me up, you stated he has 3 choices but listed 4 options. Coming from you, I think it was intentional sarcasm. Well done!!

FWIW, it is what it is, you don't have to like it, you don't have to understand it, you don't have to deal with it nor do you even have to accept it. Try not to waste so much energy on something you have no control over. And the next time you find a PSA-10 that sells for 10x the price of a 9 or a 9 selling for 10x the price of an 8 or better yet, a 10 selling for 100x the price of an 8, please enlighten me, outside of a very few (mostly commons) low pop cards (well less than 1% of the PSA inventory) please feel free to bring it to the attention of these message boards.

Estil · August 27, 2008 3:45PM

Indeed, if someone wants to pay tons of money for a piece of plastic with a 10 stamped on it, I say knock themselves out. As for me, I'm perfectly content with 7's (1970s) and 6's (1960s). Still very collectable cards for the time periods and MUCH more affordable. I mean, why pay say, over $2000 for that one PSA 10 1962 common I saw when one can have the whole set in EX-EXMTish for that same price?

As far as I'm concerned, the more options we have in the hobby, the better. It's not like there's a law saying you must buy everything every year.

hofautos · August 27, 2008 4:45PM

VERY SIMPLE...i don't understand why this "so called debate" keeps arising.

Two simple concepts:
1. Supply VS Demand
2. The rich people that buy the "so called insane priced" cards have ZERO interest in an 8 where a 9 or 10 is available.
$10,000 to them means as much to them as $10 to many of us. It's like asking a kid why he would pay $1 for a wrinkled 83 Gwynn when he can get a psa 8 for only $10. To many of us $10 is nothing but to that kid $10 is an insane amount. Everything is relative.

Do you think to someone who was worth 100 million that there would be any pride in owning a PSA 7 1955 Clemente? He would prefer to donate it than to have it in his collection.

This is all very simple ...I find it very difficult to believe there are people that don't understand this basic logic??

VitoCo1972 · August 27, 2008 4:52PM

Why do people pay these prices? Because we're not communists. We live in the United States and can spend our money on whatever we want without having to justify or rationalize it to anyone. There. Done. Cut. Print.

GDM67 · August 27, 2008 7:23PM

I want to hear more from Lee about $10,000 hookers.

DrJ · August 27, 2008 8:32PM

<< Why do people pay these prices? Because we're not communists. We live in the United States and can spend our money on whatever we want without having to justify or rationalize it to anyone. There. Done. Cut. Print. >>

I agree with you, but the communist line is getting slightly trite.

CDsNuts · August 27, 2008 9:20PM

WinPitcher · August 27, 2008 10:01PM

IMHO, the prices being paid for PSA 9's and PSA 10's in relationship to PSA 8's are absolutely insane. Generally speaking, PSA 9's sell for roughly 10x PSA 8's, and PSA 10's sell for roughly 10x PSA 9's, meaning that PSA 10's generally sell for roughly 100x PSA 8's, despite the fact that you often need a microscope to tell the difference in condition.

Matt I think your percentages are a little off.

Make that a lot off.

Steve

BobaFett72 · August 27, 2008 10:42PM

" Lee about $10,000 hookers."

how about 10 really good $1000 hookers lol?

hofautos · August 27, 2008 10:45PM

<< IMHO, the prices being paid for PSA 9's and PSA 10's in relationship to PSA 8's are absolutely insane. Generally speaking, PSA 9's sell for roughly 10x PSA 8's, and PSA 10's sell for roughly 10x PSA 9's, meaning that PSA 10's generally sell for roughly 100x PSA 8's, despite the fact that you often need a microscope to tell the difference in condition.

Matt I think your percentages are a little off.

Make that a lot off.

Steve >>

Really depends on the card in question...A PSA 9 1971 garvey just sold for over $2000...what's an 8 sell for and how many 10s are there?
There are many like that... Most of the vintage cards that I would have any interest in have large differences between the grades....again, supply vs demand, some a lot less, some a lot more, but i believe the 10x was just an example, the point being the same.

Stone193 · August 28, 2008 1:10AM

<< I want to hear more from Lee about $10,000 hookers. >>

What happens in Vegas - stays in Vegas.

Stone193 · August 28, 2008 1:15AM

Perhaps I may have overstated my point on whether Matt sees joy in the hobby but....

and this is a general statement...

People have the right to have any POV or make any statement they wish - just be ready to take the repercussions.

My take? I don't over-think the issue when it comes to a hobby - that's work and I already have a job.

And if we want to get "into" it - all the talk of stats and $ implies investment - and there's a number of people here who believe that investment takes the fun out of the hobby - inflicts unwanted stress and just plain ruins the fun.

mike

mosaic · August 28, 2008 2:17AM

The jump from 8 to 9 is a big leap. You can see those differences with the naked eye. They're always minor, but they're there. Paying more for that 9 isn't insane.

However, I'm with you on the 9 vs 10. Often, the differences are VERY slight. Sometimes you look under 10x magnification at a 9 and go "why didn't this get a 10?"

Conversely, you see a 10 that's off-center (especially on the back) and go "why didn't this get a 9."

I like 9's. I like 10's. I love 9's that look like 10's.

For my budget, I like to bid on and buy the sweet looking 9's. That's why you need to be on the lookout for good scans and buy the card, not the holder it's in. In the past, I've bought 10's that shouldn't be 10's based on some eye-appeal aspect. I quickly learned that you get more bang for your buck with 9's... and if your eye is keen you can gamble $15 on a crackout opportunity. Beats paying that 10x multiple.

WinPitcher · August 28, 2008 5:07AM

HOFautos

I was thinking more about the 100 times quote he made.

Not sure any card goes from 8 to 10 with 100% jump in value.

But then again I am sure you could find 1 that does.

In general his point is somewhat accurate just to general for me.

Steve

perkdog · August 28, 2008 8:16AM

<< " Lee about $10,000 hookers."

how about 10 really good $1000 hookers lol? >>

Man! I think all I would need is 3

proofer2 · August 28, 2008 10:21AM

"My point is to illustrate how people are being lured into paying ridiculous premiums for minute improvements in card quality by the artifical scarcity created by the grading companies"

Sorry to bore you with a theoretical argument, but I disagree with this assessment. In particular, concerning commons, if one were to create a probability distribution of the current population by grade (leaving off grades less than 5), you would find that the distribution looks "normal". So (without getting into the math), if you know anything about probability distributions, given that the population distribution by grade appears normal, I would surmise that the grading is NOT artificial.

Another thing, I think that the price discrepancy is completely rational. My return on cards over the last few years has been tremendous for PSA 10's and nominal for 9's. To me, this alone would explain the premium paid for PSA 10's.

Why the prices people pay for PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards are insane...

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