A question for PM dealers.
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
Lets say silver was $17 last month, and today its $12. Why do some of you tell me that since you bought your current stock at $17, and no new stock has come in since the dip, you have to sell it at $17? In all my years of buying/selling bullion, I never once was offered silver at a few dollars less than spot because the dealer bought most of that stock at cheaper prices a few months earlier. Would you guys sell me some silver at $15 when the market is at $17 because you bought a bunch of it at $11 a month earlier? Start playing fairly, or get out of the game!
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<< <i>Lets say silver was $17 last month, and today its $12. Why do some of you tell me that since you bought your current stock at $17, and no new stock has come in since the dip, you have to sell it at $17? In all my years of buying/selling bullion, I never once was offered silver at a few dollars less than spot because the dealer bought most of that stock at cheaper prices a few months earlier. Would you guys sell me some silver at $15 when the market is at $17 because you bought a bunch of it at $11 a month earlier? Start playing fairly, or get out of the game! >>
it is the difference between a coin store and a high volume bullion dealer.
i had a rant on this you probably read.
the coin dealer thinks in terms of making a profit on every item in the store.
the high volume bullion dealer knows that prices go up and down and in most
cases they will break even on those swings over the long term. they also enjoyed
a run up over the last two years which should cover that big drop last month.
Gecko, you're barking up the wrong tree. The dealers aren't doing anything other than responding to a changing market. If you want to buy, offer a higher bid.
I have some silver I bought when it was $6.00. I should sell it to you at $8.00? Get serious.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Start playing fairly, or get out of the game!
Gecko, you're barking up the wrong tree. The dealers aren't doing anything other than responding to a changing market. If you want to buy, offer a higher bid.
I have some silver I bought when it was $6.00. I should sell it to you at $8.00? Get serious. >>
Not at all. Unless you are trying to sell me silver at $17 when its just $13 in today's market. If you want to use the excuse that you cannot sell at current market prices because you bought your inventory at a higher price, then you shouldnt be in the business.
<< <i> then you shouldnt be in the business. >>
as a bullion dealer.. that is. if you are just a coin store you have the right
to pretend to be a bullion dealer but never sell for less then you bought
even if market conditions change during the time you hold some inventory.
in that case, you are a wannabe bullion dealer just looking to buy low and
sell higher every time. it does not work that way for normal bullion dealers
in some extraordinary market conditions.
Obviously, "market prices" are the price at which a transaction takes place. You can't declare a market price just because that's what you think it ought to be. It's really not your concern what price a dealer paid - that makes zero difference, frankly.
I've got some $6.00/oz. silver and I've got some $21.00/oz. silver. If you know where I can sell my $21.00 silver at a higher price than I can sell my $6.00 silver, then you're smarter than I thought.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Maybe I am just jaded by working in a clean up front business in this regard but what kind of stores are you talking about? Most of the shops I know including the one I work at quotes basic 1, 10 and 100 oz bars as a function of Spot plus X where X is the market premium. I am tempted to say that these dealers that are being complained about here are those same ones you try and cherrypick in a hot market. I sense a bit of the double standard here. Maybe you are just not buying from the right dealers or are frustrated you can't pick them anymore. >>
Not the case at all David. I called your shop a few months ago to ask what your sell price was on 1/10th oz gold eagles. You guys were the single highest shop of the 6 or so that I called that day. Something like 20% over melt. I ended up buying 8 of them that same day from Chicago Coin Company, and 7 more from World Coin on the southside at just 6% over melt. Dont try to tell me that the cost of the tenths is incredibally high, thus justifying your frightening mark-ups. Thats bullchit. I know how the bullion biz works. Guy "A" comes into your store with a few tenths, and you pay him 95-97% of melt. Guy "B" (me) calls the shop for a sell price and you quote at 20% over melt. Granted, your rent district is a bit higher than it is on Archer and Narragansett. But guess who i'll be spending my next $1,500 with when I want to buy common, generic gold bullion David?
<< <i>If you want to use the excuse that you cannot sell at current market prices because you bought your inventory at a higher price, then you shouldnt be in the business.
Obviously, "market prices" are the price at which a transaction takes place. You can't declare a market price just because that's what you think it ought to be. It's really not your concern what price a dealer paid - that makes zero difference, frankly.
I've got some $6.00/oz. silver and I've got some $21.00/oz. silver. If you know where I can sell my $21.00 silver at a higher price than I can sell my $6.00 silver, then you're smarter than I thought. >>
I dont declare any market prices. That is done on wallstreet and those numbers are available via KITCO as well as any major newspaper. The moment a dealer offers to buy MY silver at over melt because "the market is hot, and they cant keep it in stock" is the moment I stop critisizing their actions. They should buy at spot - X and sell at spot + X. Not buy at spot - X and then sell at "their cost" + X.
Premiums on bullion change all the time.
They should buy at spot - X and sell at spot + X. Not buy at spot - X and then sell at "their cost" + X.
In a volatile market, you can expect buy/sell spreads to increase. It really isn't relevant whether or not they buy or sell ahead of, or behind spot. Do you walk into other businesses and tell them how much they should be charging? I suspect that you do.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The moment a dealer offers to buy MY silver at over melt because "the market is hot, and they cant keep it in stock"
Premiums on bullion change all the time.
They should buy at spot - X and sell at spot + X. Not buy at spot - X and then sell at "their cost" + X.
In a volatile market, you can expect buy/sell spreads to increase. It really isn't relevant whether or not they buy or sell ahead of, or behind spot. Do you walk into other businesses and tell them how much they should be charging? I suspect that you do.
No, but I truly enjoy pointing out the ripoff artists
<< <i>In this case, the ripoff artists may very well be the paper traders manipulating the market down while demand is actually up. >>
And the dealers who are happy to buy silver right now at a tad below melt, but then want to sell it at $3 over melt because the "market is hot".
<< <i>
<< <i>In this case, the ripoff artists may very well be the paper traders manipulating the market down while demand is actually up. >>
And the dealers who are happy to buy silver right now at a tad below melt, but then want to sell it at $3 over melt because the "market is hot".
I can see that point also, but I bet the dealers aren't being offered much to purchase at the moment either.
<< <i>Lets say silver was $17 last month, and today its $12. Why do some of you tell me that since you bought your current stock at $17, and no new stock has come in since the dip, you have to sell it at $17? In all my years of buying/selling bullion, I never once was offered silver at a few dollars less than spot because the dealer bought most of that stock at cheaper prices a few months earlier. Would you guys sell me some silver at $15 when the market is at $17 because you bought a bunch of it at $11 a month earlier? Start playing fairly, or get out of the game! >>
Commodities are priced by markets, not acquisition cost +/- some % that you consider to be reasonable. Otherwise, there would be very little price volatility whether we're taking about gold, soybeans or oil. And it may be a game to you, but to dealers it's a business, and they're rightly in it to make a profit.
<< <i>
<< <i>Lets say silver was $17 last month, and today its $12. Why do some of you tell me that since you bought your current stock at $17, and no new stock has come in since the dip, you have to sell it at $17? In all my years of buying/selling bullion, I never once was offered silver at a few dollars less than spot because the dealer bought most of that stock at cheaper prices a few months earlier. Would you guys sell me some silver at $15 when the market is at $17 because you bought a bunch of it at $11 a month earlier? Start playing fairly, or get out of the game! >>
Commodities are priced by markets, not acquisition cost +/- some % that you consider to be reasonable. Otherwise, there would be very little price volatility whether we're taking about gold, soybeans or oil. And it may be a game to you, but to dealers it's a business, and they're rightly in it to make a profit. >>
Exactly right....priced by markets. The market says silver's value is currently $14....so why are some dealers basing their SELL prices on their AQUISITION costs? Thank you for proving my point for me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I am just jaded by working in a clean up front business in this regard but what kind of stores are you talking about? Most of the shops I know including the one I work at quotes basic 1, 10 and 100 oz bars as a function of Spot plus X where X is the market premium. I am tempted to say that these dealers that are being complained about here are those same ones you try and cherrypick in a hot market. I sense a bit of the double standard here. Maybe you are just not buying from the right dealers or are frustrated you can't pick them anymore. >>
Not the case at all David. I called your shop a few months ago to ask what your sell price was on 1/10th oz gold eagles. You guys were the single highest shop of the 6 or so that I called that day. Something like 20% over melt. I ended up buying 8 of them that same day from Chicago Coin Company, and 7 more from World Coin on the southside at just 6% over melt. Dont try to tell me that the cost of the tenths is incredibally high, thus justifying your frightening mark-ups. Thats bullchit. I know how the bullion biz works. Guy "A" comes into your store with a few tenths, and you pay him 95-97% of melt. Guy "B" (me) calls the shop for a sell price and you quote at 20% over melt. Granted, your rent district is a bit higher than it is on Archer and Narragansett. But guess who i'll be spending my next $1,500 with when I want to buy common, generic gold bullion David?
Actually I must strongly disagree with you. If someone brings in fractional eagles our typical buy price is melt. The only time we would pay 96-98% would be on damaged material such as scratchy maples or abused pandas (sorry but we arent a wildlife refuge
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Lets say silver was $17 last month, and today its $12. Why do some of you tell me that since you bought your current stock at $17, and no new stock has come in since the dip, you have to sell it at $17? In all my years of buying/selling bullion, I never once was offered silver at a few dollars less than spot because the dealer bought most of that stock at cheaper prices a few months earlier. Would you guys sell me some silver at $15 when the market is at $17 because you bought a bunch of it at $11 a month earlier? Start playing fairly, or get out of the game! >>
Commodities are priced by markets, not acquisition cost +/- some % that you consider to be reasonable. Otherwise, there would be very little price volatility whether we're taking about gold, soybeans or oil. And it may be a game to you, but to dealers it's a business, and they're rightly in it to make a profit. >>
Exactly right....priced by markets. The market says silver's value is currently $14....so why are some dealers basing their SELL prices on their AQUISITION costs? Thank you for proving my point for me. >>
The prices you're seeing for physical bullion IS the market, even though it's higher than spot at this time. As you're finding, EVERYONE is charging over spot. Similarly, when the price of crude falls, gas stations are slower to reduce their prices than they were on the way up. I think you stopped reading before you got to the part about it being a business with the purpose of making a profit...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I am just jaded by working in a clean up front business in this regard but what kind of stores are you talking about? Most of the shops I know including the one I work at quotes basic 1, 10 and 100 oz bars as a function of Spot plus X where X is the market premium. I am tempted to say that these dealers that are being complained about here are those same ones you try and cherrypick in a hot market. I sense a bit of the double standard here. Maybe you are just not buying from the right dealers or are frustrated you can't pick them anymore. >>
Not the case at all David. I called your shop a few months ago to ask what your sell price was on 1/10th oz gold eagles. You guys were the single highest shop of the 6 or so that I called that day. Something like 20% over melt. I ended up buying 8 of them that same day from Chicago Coin Company, and 7 more from World Coin on the southside at just 6% over melt. Dont try to tell me that the cost of the tenths is incredibally high, thus justifying your frightening mark-ups. Thats bullchit. I know how the bullion biz works. Guy "A" comes into your store with a few tenths, and you pay him 95-97% of melt. Guy "B" (me) calls the shop for a sell price and you quote at 20% over melt. Granted, your rent district is a bit higher than it is on Archer and Narragansett. But guess who i'll be spending my next $1,500 with when I want to buy common, generic gold bullion David?
Actually I must strongly disagree with you. If someone brings in fractional eagles our typical buy price is melt. The only time we would pay 96-98% would be on damaged material such as scratchy maples or abused pandas (sorry but we arent a wildlife refuge
Ah, but David, I did ask if that price was on random dates and the lady I spoke with said yes. I do realize that current year coins have to be aquired from distributors and thus have a higher cost, however, I specifically asked about random dated coins and was still quoted a horrifyingly high premium above melt. Brian at World Coin took care of me at 6% over melt, and Chicago Coin followed suit with the same deal for me. I wonder why HJB couldnt get the deal done?
This answer doesn't do it for me, either. If you were quoting 1/10 ozers at 20% over spot, that's a bad deal regardless of how you spin it.
If 70% of your callers are fishing, so what? Does that mean you give them a higher quote? Apparently so. If that's the case, then I have to agree with Gecko. Does a caller have to ask for "a deal" before you talk turkey? Sounds slimy to me!! Nothing personal.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>This thread seems to answer the question to" Is the PMs Forum Petering Out?". >>
Define "peter."
Peter, but not as used in Peter Principle.
This one fits right in.
Steve
<< <i>I have seen so my whiny threads in this forum.
This one fits right in.
Steve >>
So....... this begs the question; "What the Hell are you doing here?"
Trying to increase the whine factor?
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
What is your excuse?
Steve
<< <i>I have seen so my whiny threads in this forum.
This one fits right in.
Steve >>
silver drops to a new low lately. do you expect silver buyers to be happy
to pay 16+ an ounce for .999?
deadhorse.. touche ;-)
And since we are generalizing I'll offer this.
The market is volatile, when that happens the premiums
one may have to pay will be larger.
If one is not happy at one specific store go to another until you find one willing to
sell at your price.
But by all means keep whining here, this forum needs the threads.
Edited to add last sentence.
Steve
dealers. they are the typical breed of B&M dealer who wish to buy
low from walk ins. As in spot or lower.
Then turn around and ask for a large markup... beyond what online
dealers sell them for even with shipping.
a true bullion dealer, and there are a lot of them, not in my area though, understand to move silver fast, their spread has to be fair.
wannabe bullion dealers (coin stores) are embarrassing once you realize
you are dealing with them and surrounded by them.
My "whining" has lead me to find other sources of silver from the
main companies who mint it into the form i want as well as a true
bullion dealers who think a fair markup is 2-4%.
Lets see what happens. Whining alone is silly. Doing something about
it is quite rewarding ;-)
------
a quote from another poster
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I understand this. I just called my local B@M and they are selling ASE's for 19.00 each
I asked the buy price thinking I might unload a few at that price... Buy--14.25 Sell--19.00
Explain that to me. They have always had a 1 dollar spread between Buy and Sell... 4 bucks now
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<< <i>Do you expect sellers to take a beating?
And since we are generalizing I'll offer this.
The market is volatile, when that happens the premiums
one may have to pay will be larger.
If one is not happy at one specific store go to another until you find one willing to
sell at your price.
But by all means keep whining here, this forum needs the threads.
Edited to add last sentence.
Steve
Of course the market is quite volitile. It's clear the manipulators pulled out the stops.
We are seeing a split between paper and physical silver and that combined with what appears to be the beginning of the shortage that we have all seen coming for years is giving some people the willies.
I don't blame the B&M shops and people aren't selling into this low market, so it has increased the scarcity of investment silver available.
Still, I would never label the issues people are dealing with as "whining".
There are several B&M shops that are simply jerks. They've always been that way and now they have a new issue to treat customers and callers with rudeness over.
Then again, there are a few of the good shops out there, just not enough. I just spoke with a B&M owner a few minutes ago, he had picked up a pair of 100 oz Englehards and offered them to me at a very reasonable premium. I'll pick them up tomorrow.
I've been dealing in precious metals for nearly a decade now and I can say with total honesty that these current times are the craziest I've ever dealt with.
For many, particularly those trying to buy on the dips and for those who are new at this game, these are trying times.
No need to add fuel to the fire by insulting people.
While I may have experienced huge rises and incredible dips over the years, it's something I have learned to just ride out.
I was very much against SLV when it started, it's hurt the market increasingly since it's inception. We may get to a point where spot price actually means paper, while physical will simply be understood to mean several dollars more. Should we get to that point, the B&M shops will have to respond accordingly and that means with their buy price as well as the sell price.
Paper precious metals are the worst thing to ever happen to the market and it doesn't seem to be regulated at all. Kind of like fractional banking and we all know where that leads to.
I've always said that silver can be a cruel mistriss, but if you can go with the flow, she can be a very rewarding one as well.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>I have seen so my whiny threads in this forum.
This one fits right in.
Steve >>
you must not know "gecko" He is King and beyond reproach in his ability to reason far above and beyond the rest of us.
Steve
<< <i>[
The prices you're seeing for physical bullion IS the market, even though it's higher than spot at this time. As you're finding, EVERYONE is charging over spot. Similarly, when the price of crude falls, gas stations are slower to reduce their prices than they were on the way up. I think you stopped reading before you got to the part about it being a business with the purpose of making a profit... >>
There's a premium on the commodity to the spot bullion market because of the cost of storage. You have to weigh in the storage per day before delivery, which also includes the cost of $$ --see short term interests rates, to find the actual cost. That's the scratch price for a dealer. Their profit begins after that, in all fairness. So if a commodity is priced at $13, the bullion will trade below that...because $13 includes the aforementioned costs. In the commodity market, arbitraguers fiddle with the slight descrepancies between spot and future prices where a profit may or may not exist. If you know anything about option pricing, consider the relationships between spot and commodity in the same vain as commodity and option prices.