<< <i>I think everyone's answer will be based on what they value more: rings or trophies. >>
That's part of it, but I wouldn't prefer to have had the career of some scrub who has a handful of WS but played little part in winning them (Gerry Coleman or Dal Maxvill, for example) over Williams' career. But in addition to the WS titles, Jeter also got a ROY, a WS MVP, and bunches of AS and Gold Gloves. Here, it's rings and trophies vs. more trophies.
Certainly, there has to be some difference in the feeling of accomplishment between a legend like Williams and a mere superstar like Jeter. How much is that difference worth to you? That's the question.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Nothing against Williams but I would rather celebrate with my teammates winning multiple championships, especially in NYC.
I mean, good lord, can you even imagine what some of those parties were like?
Besides, isn't that why we play? To win championships?
I'm just sayin'...
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I think that Ted Williams was the best overall hitter ever, but he was only in the post season once in his life. It's Jeter hands down with 4 WS rings done in an era of the extra round Wild Card and maybe more rings to come for me.
And staying within the OP's intent of this thread (or I think so):
IMO, Williams' career would be reflected upon more positively had he won at least one BUT it doesn't diminish it.
For example, even though Robery Hory has 6(?) rings, I wouldn't trade his career for like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, etc. On the other hand, I would trade Barkley, Ewing, etc for Olajuwon, Jordan, et al in a heartbeat.
It's all personal prefrence on how you weigh their career achievements.
edited because my grammar sucks. in other words, if i was barkely, ect, i wouldn't give up my ringless career for horry's 6.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Winning a championship is viewed as the only goal in sports now.
But when playing sports, that is one aspect and is not the only goal.
Another primary goal is putting forth the highest effort in practice and in games and to play to your maximum of abilities, and in so doing, putting your team in the best position to succeed. That is actually what is preached more than anything when coaching.
THat is all an idividual player can really do. From that point on, everything else has to fall into place in order for a team to win a championship.
Most athletes understand this, and while they would like to participate in a championship team, the mightly players like Ted Williams, I am sure can step away and understand the reasons why they didn't win, and still be just as content on the effort and job they put forth.
The funny thing is that Jeter was not even the best postion player on three of his WS teams...Bernie WIlliams was superior on three of them. Jeter wasn't the best fielder on his team, nor the best hitter either. Heck, there were a couple other hitters that did better than him too.
The finality of it all is that Ted Williams will forever be on Mount Rushmore based on his career, while Jeter's accomplishments will never put him up there. 50 Years from now Ted will still get memorialized more than Jeter. That is what happens when you are so high up there in rarified air.
Now if you were talking taking Mickey Mantle's career and WS championps, then that is a different ball game, as he is also up in that rarified air that Jeter will never sniff.
Ted Williams really has a unique combination of everything that will always make him an icon.
Is Ernie Banks any less of a HOF'ER because he never even played in a world series. I think not. As a life long Yankees fan and have much respect for Jeter...this question IMo isn't even close. Jeter was just a piece of the puzzle that clicked at a moment in time that a team could win the 4 rings....as a team. Take Jeter away..maybe they don'tl win...most likely they still do. Jeter is on track for the HOF...but will not break the top 100 players of all time. Ted is easily in the top 10.
Now consider teddy gave up 5 of his prime years to military service...something no modern day player would even think about (they are far more concerned about how much $ they can make as an individual....even if it hurts the team). He was a combat pilot and took life risks........many of the ballplayers had non combat service (still have to thank them for all they gave up). Now get in your time machine and trade jeter for williams. Result: williams at least 4 rings. Jeter Zero
Ted williams is one of the greatest americans ever. That is even far more important than baseball. Yes I hope jeter can win more rings and gets into the HOF. He has managed to play hard, stay humble, and become an good ambassader for baseball.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Part of the reason I keep restating the teammates aspect, is because I have had to hear that Jeter was better than Arod and Normar during the 90's because Jeter 'knew how to win' and was a 'winner', and those guys couldn't bring their teams a WS title, hence Jeter was the better and MORE PREFERABLE player. And I know that flawed logic is still prevelant from people on this board and maybe in this thread.
I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that.
<< <i>I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that. >>
skin, in the end, this comes down to a matter of opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. But I would say that "riding coat tails", as a description of Derek Jeter and the Yankees 4 WS wins, is pushing the line into silliness. If we are defining that term to mean that a team would have won without that player, then EVERY player on the really great teams is a coattail rider. The Babe himself could have sat out many a World Series and the Yankees still would have won. If Babe Ruth "rode coat tails" then that phrase is meaningless; if Derek Jeter "rode coat tails" then that phrase is also meaningless. Chad Curtis rode coat tals - Jeter's coat tails, primarily.
And jay0791, for the record, Jeter is already one of the top 100 players of all-time. Easily. If he's got a couple great seasons left in him, he could crack the top 50.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> Ted Williams is not only known as the best hitter ever, but it is his persona that makes him even more legendary. John Wayne used Ted Williams as a motivation to get into character for his tough persona's. And Ted did back that up with his war hero status! He was truly a Man's man. No need to give a history lesson on Williams and the war. I figure Jeter would wet his pants when it really counted there. >>
You know, Ted Williams and John Wayne also look and sound a lot alike. That obviously can't be a coincidence.
growing up i only got to see 3 major league games. one was cubs vs. expos way back when..... I got ron santo's and ernie banks autos on a piece of paper. They were having so much fun with us little kids......laughing and playing around. Find that now.......NO WAY !!!! I have been a santo fan all my life and sincerely hope he can get by the next veterans comm. voting. Mr blyleven should be in........His curve ball was totally outrageous!!!!!!!
Jeter may or not be in the top 100 right now...but he will be there when itas all over. He has no individual awards other than 3 gold gloves.(so close in 96 for the mvp) ( his fielding is better than that...he just happened to play at the same time as vizquel). He is in the top 100 for a few categories.
An interesting thread would be: top 100 players of all time top 25 and 10 current players. Guys who are playing/recently retired and on a HOF pace. Best player...you might want to separate pitchers/position players
I just upgraded my 93 sp jeter to a psa 9...a 10 is way out of my league. So I am already considering Jeter a HOFER.
This thread is great...many different opinions. Much BB knowledge.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
In order for a player to win a championship, he does have to ride some coattails, even Joe Dimaggio, and even Babe Ruth. Why? Without the group of other excellent players on their teams they don't win the championships. A TEAM always rides each other's coat tails!
As the poster above me said, Jeter was a piece to the puzzle. He was the best positional player just one time on those four championship teams. Maybe zero times as the race between he and Bernie Williams in 1999 is quite close! So Unless Derek Jeter had 200 winshares in a season, he certainly had to have ridden some coattails! If there were better players on his team, contributing more wins, then therefore he rode THEIR coattails. Even players who are a tad below gave rides too.
He didn't ride the tails as much as Scott Brosius, but he certainly did ride them.
If you want to be a piece to the puzzle(who unfairly receives more than his share of the credit), instead of a true baseball God(who's skill actually merited that honor), then more power to you. That is your choice.
Comparing players is difficult as there never is an equal way to compare them. diff eras, balls, way the game was played...who was also on your team...opposing teams.....so many factors. argue who was the best center fielder of the 1950's in new york alone???
Did you get better pitches to hit because mantle or pujols was next in the lineup?
I know its hard to compare........even teamates.......such as Arod who has a chance to be considered in the top 10 players of all time. If he does and he will do so easily..be the all time HR king.........he will have triple crown numbers for a carear..... we could then say Jeter isn't even the best shortstop on his own team.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Like Dallas said, it really is all opinion and preference on this topic(as it has become defined).
My continued stance on Jeter is that he was not top banana on those teams. He was second, third, or fourth fiddle sometimes. I continued to get the feeling that many put him as top banana and the primary reason of winning, hence my stance against that.
Personally, being third fiddle on a champhionship team isn't as appealing as being a King of Kings, and living immortaly in the annals of baseball history.
<< <i>If you want to be a piece to the puzzle(who unfairly receives more than his share of the credit), instead of a true baseball God(who's skill actually merited that honor), then more power to you. That is your choice. >>
You've played a lot of baseball over your career. Which teams/seasons have been the most fun?
For me it was my three seasons where the team played the best at the end. Once a state champ and twice a runner up. I did end up having a couple Ted Williams type seasons playing 35+ baseball and while they were fun, the lack of team success just didn't make it nearly as enjoyable.
Bottom line is that I'd sacrifice the miles and miles of better skill that Williams has over Jeter to have played on a team that came together and won the World Series.
I'm with you on the Jeter rankings of the Yankees teams.
"I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that. "
WinPitcher, I understand exactly. That is your choice. Call it being part of a team or call it riding coattails...same thing. You just want to be on the team that wins it all, and be a good player on the team. Not that hard to understand. Have at it.
Sagard,
I hear ya. Through my experience one of my best experiences came on a team when I was mid 30's. The final tournament win was filled with improbable comebacks, and coming from a loser bracket to win it. I pitched two complete games(including the title game), within a span of less than 40 hours. It was sweet.
I have had some successes, in high school, college, semi pro...and a couple of bad team meltdowns. The actual best part was really hanging with the guys, and that turned out to be more valuable to me than any win or loss I have ever endured.
But, can you imagine the feeling if you walked into any restaurant and store, and everybody would look at you and say, "that guy is the best player in the world."
In regard to Williams, he basically was that guy, and his teams were never bad, and in fact sometimes the second best in the world. It just happened that the best in the world was in their league. To be on that good of teams, and be a King is not too bad. It is a matter of preference of course.
Nobody knows Ted's true feelings. He may have said that he wished he could trade being a lesser player for a title, but if he did I may tend to think that he was being diplomatic and not looking selfish, while secretly relishing the fact that he was simply the best.
It's just a semantic difference, but it's an important one. "Riding coat tails" has a very specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with being a part of a team or a piece of a puzzle. One who "rides coat tails" is being dragged along by the person to whom the coat tails belong. Brosius and Curtis rode the coat tails of Williams and Jeter. That's simply what the phrase means; using it to describe Jeter is technically incorrect and I can't help but think you're using it simply to downplay Jeter's place on those teams.
Of the 25 players on the roster, Jeter was the third or fourth best in 1996, and Williams was the clear leader. If you want to use "riding coat tails" to describe that situation, then I'll just disagree, but I guess it's not necessarily wrong. But in 1998 and 1999 - the years where the Yankee "dynasty" talk peaked (deservedly, since the 1998 Yankees may have been the greatest team ever) Derek Jeter was the most valuable player on the team. I would not use "riding coat tails" to describe Bernie Williams or Paul O'Neill or Tino Martinez or any of the other key players on that team - but I guess I could. What I could not do is use that phrase to describe Derek Jeter. If the phrase is to be used with respect to that team and its key players, then it is Derek Jeter's coat tails that were being ridden. In 2000, Bernie was clearly on top again during the regular season, but then Jeter was the MVP of the WS so again, to say Jeter rode anyone's coat tails is simply incorrect.
And it's an important distiction because I'm not saying I'd prefer ANY 4-ring player's career to Williams', I'm saying I'd prefer the career of the best player on one of history's best teams to Williams'. By lumping Jeter with Dal Maxvill you obscure that distinction. Well played, but I'm calling you on it.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
The thing is, nobody really knows how it feels to be looked at by so many as the best hitter who ever lived. So it really would be hard to compare that feeling to Jeter's situation. And actually, no man can experience both Jeter's situation, and Williams...so a compare/contrast would be impossible for one to digest.
Comments
<< <i>I think everyone's answer will be based on what they value more: rings or trophies. >>
That's part of it, but I wouldn't prefer to have had the career of some scrub who has a handful of WS but played little part in winning them (Gerry Coleman or Dal Maxvill, for example) over Williams' career. But in addition to the WS titles, Jeter also got a ROY, a WS MVP, and bunches of AS and Gold Gloves. Here, it's rings and trophies vs. more trophies.
Certainly, there has to be some difference in the feeling of accomplishment between a legend like Williams and a mere superstar like Jeter. How much is that difference worth to you? That's the question.
I mean, good lord, can you even imagine what some of those parties were like?
Besides, isn't that why we play? To win championships?
I'm just sayin'...
IMO, Williams' career would be reflected upon more positively had he won at least one BUT it doesn't diminish it.
For example, even though Robery Hory has 6(?) rings, I wouldn't trade his career for like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, etc. On the other hand, I would trade Barkley, Ewing, etc for Olajuwon, Jordan, et al in a heartbeat.
It's all personal prefrence on how you weigh their career achievements.
edited because my grammar sucks. in other words, if i was barkely, ect, i wouldn't give up my ringless career for horry's 6.
But when playing sports, that is one aspect and is not the only goal.
Another primary goal is putting forth the highest effort in practice and in games and to play to your maximum of abilities, and in so doing, putting your team in the best position to succeed. That is actually what is preached more than anything when coaching.
THat is all an idividual player can really do. From that point on, everything else has to fall into place in order for a team to win a championship.
Most athletes understand this, and while they would like to participate in a championship team, the mightly players like Ted Williams, I am sure can step away and understand the reasons why they didn't win, and still be just as content on the effort and job they put forth.
The funny thing is that Jeter was not even the best postion player on three of his WS teams...Bernie WIlliams was superior on three of them. Jeter wasn't the best fielder on his team, nor the best hitter either. Heck, there were a couple other hitters that did better than him too.
The finality of it all is that Ted Williams will forever be on Mount Rushmore based on his career, while Jeter's accomplishments will never put him up there. 50 Years from now Ted will still get memorialized more than Jeter. That is what happens when you are so high up there in rarified air.
Now if you were talking taking Mickey Mantle's career and WS championps, then that is a different ball game, as he is also up in that rarified air that Jeter will never sniff.
Ted Williams really has a unique combination of everything that will always make him an icon.
Steve
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
Now consider teddy gave up 5 of his prime years to military service...something no modern day player would even think about (they are far more concerned about how much $ they can make as an individual....even if it hurts the team). He was a combat pilot and took life risks........many of the ballplayers had non combat service (still have to thank them for all they gave up). Now get in your time machine and trade jeter for williams. Result: williams at least 4 rings. Jeter Zero
Ted williams is one of the greatest americans ever. That is even far more important than baseball. Yes I hope jeter can win more rings and gets into the HOF. He has managed to play hard, stay humble, and become an good ambassader for baseball.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Part of the reason I keep restating the teammates aspect, is because I have had to hear that Jeter was better than Arod and Normar during the 90's because Jeter 'knew how to win' and was a 'winner', and those guys couldn't bring their teams a WS title, hence Jeter was the better and MORE PREFERABLE player. And I know that flawed logic is still prevelant from people on this board and maybe in this thread.
I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that.
<< <i>I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that. >>
skin, in the end, this comes down to a matter of opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. But I would say that "riding coat tails", as a description of Derek Jeter and the Yankees 4 WS wins, is pushing the line into silliness. If we are defining that term to mean that a team would have won without that player, then EVERY player on the really great teams is a coattail rider. The Babe himself could have sat out many a World Series and the Yankees still would have won. If Babe Ruth "rode coat tails" then that phrase is meaningless; if Derek Jeter "rode coat tails" then that phrase is also meaningless. Chad Curtis rode coat tals - Jeter's coat tails, primarily.
And jay0791, for the record, Jeter is already one of the top 100 players of all-time. Easily. If he's got a couple great seasons left in him, he could crack the top 50.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
Ted Williams is not only known as the best hitter ever, but it is his persona that makes him even more legendary. John Wayne used Ted Williams as a motivation to get into character for his tough persona's. And Ted did back that up with his war hero status! He was truly a Man's man. No need to give a history lesson on Williams and the war. I figure Jeter would wet his pants when it really counted there.
>>
You know, Ted Williams and John Wayne also look and sound a lot alike. That obviously can't be a coincidence.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
growing up i only got to see 3 major league games. one was cubs vs. expos way back when.....
I got ron santo's and ernie banks autos on a piece of paper. They were having so much fun with us little kids......laughing and playing around. Find that now.......NO WAY !!!! I have been a santo fan all my life and sincerely hope he can get by the next veterans comm. voting.
Mr blyleven should be in........His curve ball was totally outrageous!!!!!!!
Jeter may or not be in the top 100 right now...but he will be there when itas all over. He has no individual awards other than 3 gold gloves.(so close in 96 for the mvp) ( his fielding is better than that...he just happened to play at the same time as vizquel). He is in the top 100 for a few categories.
An interesting thread would be:
top 100 players of all time
top 25 and 10 current players.
Guys who are playing/recently retired and on a HOF pace.
Best player...you might want to separate pitchers/position players
I just upgraded my 93 sp jeter to a psa 9...a 10 is way out of my league. So I am already considering Jeter a HOFER.
This thread is great...many different opinions. Much BB knowledge.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
In order for a player to win a championship, he does have to ride some coattails, even Joe Dimaggio, and even Babe Ruth. Why? Without the group of other excellent players on their teams they don't win the championships. A TEAM always rides each other's coat tails!
As the poster above me said, Jeter was a piece to the puzzle. He was the best positional player just one time on those four championship teams. Maybe zero times as the race between he and Bernie Williams in 1999 is quite close! So Unless Derek Jeter had 200 winshares in a season, he certainly had to have ridden some coattails! If there were better players on his team, contributing more wins, then therefore he rode THEIR coattails. Even players who are a tad below gave rides too.
He didn't ride the tails as much as Scott Brosius, but he certainly did ride them.
If you want to be a piece to the puzzle(who unfairly receives more than his share of the credit), instead of a true baseball God(who's skill actually merited that honor), then more power to you. That is your choice.
argue who was the best center fielder of the 1950's in new york alone???
Did you get better pitches to hit because mantle or pujols was next in the lineup?
I know its hard to compare........even teamates.......such as Arod who has a chance to be considered in the top 10 players of all time.
If he does and he will do so easily..be the all time HR king.........he will have triple crown numbers for a carear..... we could then say Jeter isn't even the best shortstop on his own team.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
My continued stance on Jeter is that he was not top banana on those teams. He was second, third, or fourth fiddle sometimes. I continued to get the feeling that many put him as top banana and the primary reason of winning, hence my stance against that.
Personally, being third fiddle on a champhionship team isn't as appealing as being a King of Kings, and living immortaly in the annals of baseball history.
<< <i>If you want to be a piece to the puzzle(who unfairly receives more than his share of the credit), instead of a true baseball God(who's skill actually merited that honor), then more power to you. That is your choice. >>
You've played a lot of baseball over your career. Which teams/seasons have been the most fun?
For me it was my three seasons where the team played the best at the end. Once a state champ and twice a runner up. I did end up having a couple Ted Williams type seasons playing 35+ baseball and while they were fun, the lack of team success just didn't make it nearly as enjoyable.
Bottom line is that I'd sacrifice the miles and miles of better skill that Williams has over Jeter to have played on a team that came together and won the World Series.
I'm with you on the Jeter rankings of the Yankees teams.
More ignorance:
"I know, you would rather experience the four rings and riding coat tails, I understand that. "
You understand nothing.
Id rather 4 rings and be a part of a team
Steve
WinPitcher, I understand exactly. That is your choice. Call it being part of a team or call it riding coattails...same thing. You just want to be on the team that wins it all, and be a good player on the team. Not that hard to understand. Have at it.
Sagard,
I hear ya. Through my experience one of my best experiences came on a team when I was mid 30's. The final tournament win was filled with improbable comebacks, and coming from a loser bracket to win it. I pitched two complete games(including the title game), within a span of less than 40 hours. It was sweet.
I have had some successes, in high school, college, semi pro...and a couple of bad team meltdowns. The actual best part was really hanging with the guys, and that turned out to be more valuable to me than any win or loss I have ever endured.
But, can you imagine the feeling if you walked into any restaurant and store, and everybody would look at you and say, "that guy is the best player in the world."
In regard to Williams, he basically was that guy, and his teams were never bad, and in fact sometimes the second best in the world. It just happened that the best in the world was in their league. To be on that good of teams, and be a King is not too bad. It is a matter of preference of course.
Nobody knows Ted's true feelings. He may have said that he wished he could trade being a lesser player for a title, but if he did I may tend to think that he was being diplomatic and not looking selfish, while secretly relishing the fact that he was simply the best.
It's just a semantic difference, but it's an important one. "Riding coat tails" has a very specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with being a part of a team or a piece of a puzzle. One who "rides coat tails" is being dragged along by the person to whom the coat tails belong. Brosius and Curtis rode the coat tails of Williams and Jeter. That's simply what the phrase means; using it to describe Jeter is technically incorrect and I can't help but think you're using it simply to downplay Jeter's place on those teams.
Of the 25 players on the roster, Jeter was the third or fourth best in 1996, and Williams was the clear leader. If you want to use "riding coat tails" to describe that situation, then I'll just disagree, but I guess it's not necessarily wrong. But in 1998 and 1999 - the years where the Yankee "dynasty" talk peaked (deservedly, since the 1998 Yankees may have been the greatest team ever) Derek Jeter was the most valuable player on the team. I would not use "riding coat tails" to describe Bernie Williams or Paul O'Neill or Tino Martinez or any of the other key players on that team - but I guess I could. What I could not do is use that phrase to describe Derek Jeter. If the phrase is to be used with respect to that team and its key players, then it is Derek Jeter's coat tails that were being ridden. In 2000, Bernie was clearly on top again during the regular season, but then Jeter was the MVP of the WS so again, to say Jeter rode anyone's coat tails is simply incorrect.
And it's an important distiction because I'm not saying I'd prefer ANY 4-ring player's career to Williams', I'm saying I'd prefer the career of the best player on one of history's best teams to Williams'. By lumping Jeter with Dal Maxvill you obscure that distinction. Well played, but I'm calling you on it.
You can say I was ribbing a little.
The thing is, nobody really knows how it feels to be looked at by so many as the best hitter who ever lived. So it really would be hard to compare that feeling to Jeter's situation. And actually, no man can experience both Jeter's situation, and Williams...so a compare/contrast would be impossible for one to digest.