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A quick MS70 experiment for those that don't think it turns copper blue
kryptonitecomics
Posts: 9,185 ✭
This took me all of two minutes to perform 
I know that with red copper....a small cleaning with MS70 can simply produce a cleaner, redder looking cent, but with RB and Brown copper especially...the application of MS70 can severly alter the color and overall look of a cent. I used a 1957 Brown Cent that was straight out of an original mint set and I did my best to keep the lighting the same for both shots.
All I did was swab the obverse and the reverse of the cent a few times and it immediatly started turning a purple blue in appearance so I rinsed the coin in distilled water and patted dry. The reverse which had some nice sunset toning now looks pink with purple highlights. The obverse was very interesting because it looked mark free in the image...to the point of me questioning if I had just ruined a nice MS67BN cent.....but once the thick skin was removed.....quite a few marks including a good size hit on the chin were noticable. I think this was a good experiment for two reasons.....it clearly showed that in the case of Brown copper....MS70 can indeed change the color to Blue....and just as importantly....it shows what can be hiding on the surface of a coin underneath a thick layer of toning.
For anyone that thinks there are two coins...just look at the rim nick to the right of the date.....it's exactly the same on both coins....but most of the other marks are not visable on the toned coin
I know that with red copper....a small cleaning with MS70 can simply produce a cleaner, redder looking cent, but with RB and Brown copper especially...the application of MS70 can severly alter the color and overall look of a cent. I used a 1957 Brown Cent that was straight out of an original mint set and I did my best to keep the lighting the same for both shots.
All I did was swab the obverse and the reverse of the cent a few times and it immediatly started turning a purple blue in appearance so I rinsed the coin in distilled water and patted dry. The reverse which had some nice sunset toning now looks pink with purple highlights. The obverse was very interesting because it looked mark free in the image...to the point of me questioning if I had just ruined a nice MS67BN cent.....but once the thick skin was removed.....quite a few marks including a good size hit on the chin were noticable. I think this was a good experiment for two reasons.....it clearly showed that in the case of Brown copper....MS70 can indeed change the color to Blue....and just as importantly....it shows what can be hiding on the surface of a coin underneath a thick layer of toning.
For anyone that thinks there are two coins...just look at the rim nick to the right of the date.....it's exactly the same on both coins....but most of the other marks are not visable on the toned coin
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Comments
Thanks for posting.
<< <i>A nicely done chemistry experiment, and the color photographs are very convincing. Does MS70 impart artificial coloration on other metals (nickel, alloyed silver, alloyed gold)? >>
I haven't tried it before.....but I am going to say I doubt it...I think copper is just so much more reactive and when you strip away the skin....you get purple or blue. I'll test it on a nickel as I have plenty of mint set toned Nickels as well....
I don't think this coin would grade at PCGS or NGC with this look....especially becuase the reverse now has that pink tint of cleaned copper. I can say that depending on the final outcome....I could see some of these coins getting holdered and think we have all herd the stories and seen the examples of ones in TPG plastic.
<< <i>the next part of the experiment should be sending it to a TPG to see if it gets slabbed or bagged. >>
PCGS approved... and CAC stickered!!!!
I highly recommend it!
Imagine my surprise when it was returned to me in an NGC-58 holder! Now it goes in my "they got it wrong" box right next to the PVC-laden Jefferson nickel once body-bagged by NGC, submitted to NCS, then returned in an NGC holder with the PVC still on the coin! Dang!
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
surface contamination and tarnish"--the back of the MS 70 bottle
I think it did change the color, obviously, more than remove contamination and tarnish
"industrial strength coin brightner" -from the front of the bottle
great demonstration Shane, thanks
I was fascinated by the threads written here as I was NOT a coin doc, just a serious collector who saw the obvious. That DOESN'T mean it is the only way that copper turns blue. I am sure there are several other routes (Snow describes old-time hoards of Indians in his recent Whitman book on Indians) to blue copper, but there is no doubt. Want to turn a glossy AU-58 Indian into one of those indigo examples you see in these threads? Hit it with a rolled Q-Tip and a dose of MS-70.
It isn't good / bad, right / wrong, or anything else. It just IS. The confusion in the hobby lies in the fact that both natural and quite unnatural elements can turn copper blue, and one of those elements is obviously altering the surface. And . . . it is hard to tell the difference (hence the spate of time where the TPGs were certifying these blue beasts).
By the way . . . as hypocritical as it may sound to some, I have a penchant for original surfaces. But, once you 70 a Frankie proof or warnick that is gunked up and clouded over and restore it to an 'as-minted' look, it's hard not to become a believer.
Nice experiment . . .and as always, a good educational thread . .
Drunner
<< <i>Clearly the same coin. Good experiement. Got any proof Lincolns to play with? If you leave the MS70 on the surface longer will the coin turn bluer? >>
Plenty of Proof IHC's on the market that got MS70 Blue'D
<< <i>
<< <i>Clearly the same coin. Good experiement. Got any proof Lincolns to play with? If you leave the MS70 on the surface longer will the coin turn bluer? >>
Plenty of Proof IHC's on the market that got MS70 Blue'D
Proof Indians were often stored in tissue paper containing sulfer........thats the difficult part. They can sometimes look very similar
Then see if it looks the way it did prior to the MS70 application (I suspect that it will be close in appearance).
redeposited as the coin is treated with MS70. Sulfates of copper are blue. Brown copper seldom turns
blue, as the patina protects against any additional change. Red copper doesn't turn blue which
proves it's a reaction with something already on the coin.
Hint: If a cent was dipped years ago, and not rinsed properly, it will have a sulfur component on
it, as coin dip is dilute sulfuric acid.
<< <i>Now try another experiment. Put that 1957 Lincoln in laquer thinner (or other very strong solvent) to dissolve away the MS70 oils.
Then see if it looks the way it did prior to the MS70 application (I suspect that it will be close in appearance). >>
Nope. Solvents won't affect toning. And there is nothing "oily" about MS70. It's a very strong alkaline detergent, which REMOVES
any oils.
By the way, you can kill the blue with a very dilute dip...maybe a couple of drops in a teaspoon of distilled water., then rinse.
<< <i>Clearly the same coin. Good experiement. Got any proof Lincolns to play with? If you leave the MS70 on the surface longer will the coin turn bluer? >>
Carl
I had a 1979 TYPE 2 Linc with a huge carbon doodie on his chin. The coin was a lock pr70dcam but the the carbon made it look horrible. I put in in MS70 for an overnight soak which it ate the carbon right off it, put a few days later id developed a dark red streak on the rev, and no, no blue came of it.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I have watched these threads with interest over the past several years as various collectors line up on each side of the fence on the MS-70 blue / no blue debate. I have interest because I do indeed use MS-70 on several types of coins (proof silver, Morgans, warnicks, and an occasional BU silver coin that has the 'look' I know will be benefitted by MS-70). Years ago I experimented with it on copper and have always known it was the fastest way to turn brown copper into blue.
I was fascinated by the threads written here as I was NOT a coin doc, just a serious collector who saw the obvious. That DOESN'T mean it is the only way that copper turns blue. I am sure there are several other routes (Snow describes old-time hoards of Indians in his recent Whitman book on Indians) to blue copper, but there is no doubt. Want to turn a glossy AU-58 Indian into one of those indigo examples you see in these threads? Hit it with a rolled Q-Tip and a dose of MS-70.
It isn't good / bad, right / wrong, or anything else. It just IS. The confusion in the hobby lies in the fact that both natural and quite unnatural elements can turn copper blue, and one of those elements is obviously altering the surface. And . . . it is hard to tell the difference (hence the spate of time where the TPGs were certifying these blue beasts).
By the way . . . as hypocritical as it may sound to some, I have a penchant for original surfaces. But, once you 70 a Frankie proof or warnick that is gunked up and clouded over and restore it to an 'as-minted' look, it's hard not to become a believer.
Nice experiment . . .and as always, a good educational thread . .
Drunner >>
I fully agree with this reply.
Here is what the coin looked like before and after. I let the coin soak in about 50% ms70 and tap water about 30 seconds or less, then very liberal rinse and pat dry. I dont see any blue. Maybe if you leave the MS70 on the item it will tone blue.
PRE MS70/ Post MS70
PRE MS 70/POST MS70
most coins are messed with and the things we all have believed
in the past to be original makes me cringe.
Thanks for this thread. I think the grading services are finally onto this, but I believe many coins have gotten by them in the interim.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I have seen some MS copper coins which had that look. I think the natural occuring oils got removed and left an "Acetone" effect. Try applying Blue ribbon coin preserver to the 1957 cent and see if that "toning" dissapears. If so, the surface of the coin didn't tone, it was stripped of surface impurities. Copper naturally attracts oil (and dirt). Strip that oil and dirt and it looks strange.
FYI - I write about this in my book (Attribution Guide 1870-1889 pg. 142) with regards to Proof Indians and MPL's. There are naturaly toned proofs and "enhanced" toned proofs in these series as well as phony toned proofs. With some practice you can tell them apart.
i totally agree
<< <i>Shane,
I have seen some MS copper coins which had that look. I think the natural occuring oils got removed and left an "Acetone" effect. Try applying Blue ribbon coin preserver to the 1957 cent and see if that "toning" dissapears. If so, the surface of the coin didn't tone, it was stripped of surface impurities. Copper naturally attracts oil (and dirt). Strip that oil and dirt and it looks strange.
FYI - I write about this in my book (Attribution Guide 1870-1889 pg. 142) with regards to Proof Indians and MPL's. There are naturaly toned proofs and "enhanced" toned proofs in these series as well as phony toned proofs. With some practice you can tell them apart. >>
Since I did not have any blue ribbon I used some olive oil on the surface and then dabbed as much of it off as possible. I would say that the blue tint is almost completely removed and with blue ribbon...it might have been returned to just about normal.
and then just for kicks.....I took a someone advice and heated the coin on the stove. The obverse had residual olive oil so it ended up having a rusted look becuase the oil sort of coked onto the surface. The revese however turned into a 1943 Steel cent in appearance with some touches of blue and pink etc
and here is the original plus the originally cleaned coin...
BTW, thanks for the mini- experiment for us.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>the next part of the experiment should be sending it to a TPG to see if it gets slabbed or bagged. >>
One of the telling signs of MS70 use is the pinkness... now, I have seen pink lincolns in holders, but those have been more modern proofs, and sometimes they come from the mint looking kinda pink, but I can usually tell the difference.
42/92
Thanks!
<< <i>ingredients not mentioned on the bottle except says, contains no acid >>
It possibly contains some reducing agent and if so it will probably remove natural oxidation from most coins. MS70 is thus just another way to destroy nice original coins and should be avoided. Coins may require that the surface be "cleaned" of dirt and other oxidizing contaminants, if so, I recommend Blue Ribbon coin cleaner or some other clean choro-, or Fluoro-carbon solvent.
Shane wrote:
I know that with red copper....a small cleaning with MS70 can simply produce a cleaner, redder looking cent, but with RB and Brown copper especially...the application of MS70 can severly alter the color and overall look of a cent.
Do not suggest for a minute that MS70 make red copper redder! It makes red copper ungradeable! The 1950 proof cent is a good example. What a waste of a good coin. It apparently had no oils on it -maybe it was never handled, that is why there was no color change, I guess.
On the 1957 cent above, it had stripped all the oils off the surface leaving a strange pink/blue color. This is not toning, but an unnatural cooper surface without the natural occuring oils and dirt it had before. The oils originally got there probably from handling. Put the oil back on and it is a bit more natural looking, but different than it was originally.
Were these coins handeled at the mint or was there some form of automated process used back in the 50's to place the coins in the Mint set cardboard? Are you talking about the handeling of the plancets? Not sure how the coin got handled in an original mint set without getting prints but I assume it is certainly possible? Please enlighten me o' wise one
I agree on red copper that it doesnt make it gradable...it ruins the coin but since most red copper has a slight hint of toning....it does usually remove that hence my reference to a reder coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>ingredients not mentioned on the bottle except says, contains no acid >>
It possibly contains some reducing agent and if so it will probably remove natural oxidation from most coins. MS70 is thus just another way to destroy nice original coins and should be avoided. Coins may require that the surface be "cleaned" of dirt and other oxidizing contaminants, if so, I recommend Blue Ribbon coin cleaner or some other clean choro-, or Fluoro-carbon solvent. >>
Don't chloro-fluoro carbon solvents destroy the ozone layer in the atmosphere? Tsk, tsk. Keep them natural, no doctoring!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>ingredients not mentioned on the bottle except says, contains no acid >>
It possibly contains some reducing agent and if so it will probably remove natural oxidation from most coins. MS70 is thus just another way to destroy nice original coins and should be avoided. Coins may require that the surface be "cleaned" of dirt and other oxidizing contaminants, if so, I recommend Blue Ribbon coin cleaner or some other clean choro-, or Fluoro-carbon solvent. >>
Don't chloro-fluoro carbon solvents destroy the ozone layer in the atmosphere? Tsk, tsk. Keep them natural, no doctoring! >>
They are common laboratory regents, but I do not recommend using them to spray into the atmosphere. Yes I know evaporation will occur but I my opinion it would have zero (rounded off to 5 significant figures) impact on the ozone.
I took a freshly cut out of cello 1964 proof cent... in fact it was a cameo cent if that makes a difference. I dipped the cent in MS70 for an hour or so and here are the results. Oh and it was suggested to dip only half so you can absolutely see the difference.
FROM ATS:
So, I did the experiment using MS70. Here are the results. Hopefully they aren't too disappointing because I only left the coin dipped for an hour or two. I knew it was going to do this because essentially this is a repeat experiment for me, although I've never done half a coin, which was an excellent idea by the Dragon! When you look at the pictures, you'll note that some of the chemical crept up the coin even though only half , maybe a little more on the reverse was exposed to the chemical... cause it was tilted. Anyhow, enjoy, and sorry for the large pictures because I didn't want to crop them for full enjoyment. Nothing other than a crop was done to the pictures and they are very close to real life.
And just for reference, most of the purple doesn't show up until the coin is rinsed and dried. Hope I didn't ruin he suspense! Sorry for the slightly out of focus pictures, I forgot to use the timer!
Thank you, kryptonite, for the educating post.
And for those of you who are wondering, no, I do not find my blue copper coins any uglier due to this revelation.
The name is LEE!