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Man, I'm down
NHSBaseball
Posts: 2,470 ✭
The learning curve in this hobby is brutal. Just when you think you're starting to figure it out, something happens to remind you that whatever you think you know is usually inadequate for the most fundamental tasks.
I have tried to focus on one series and learn it to the best of my ability. I have read and re-read the capped bust half dime book, practiced my attributions, and tried to look at as many coins as I can. I have learned to try to differentiate strong from weak strikes, and which die marriages are typical of each. I have joined the JRCS and religiously read the JRJournal.
My main problem, I think, is that I am really finding it difficult to develop an "eye" for coins. A whole lot of my purchases have either downgraded or bagged when I've sent them in for grading. Consistently. The frustrating part is that what I thought were the nicest looking, most problem free examples have been bagged. I know everyone has tough submissions, but when EVERYTHING you submit downgrades you eventually have to face the reality that you are consistently buying overgraded crap.
I used to think it was only a matter of being able to afford the really good-looking coins, but it's not (money doesn't hurt, though!). I see members post some really amazing looking inexpensive, circulated coins. Then there are sets like Cladiator's AU half dime set with beautifully matched coins, or Barndog and Realone's gems, and you think "Man, if I could only pick coins like THAT!"
Then I look at the stuff I've assembled, and it's all over the place. I've rushed too much, gotten excited over average or weak coins, and bought coins against my better judgment. I still cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell an "altered surface" is, or more to the reality, which "altered surfaces" are okay with NGC but not PCGS, or vice versa. I still have coins returned as "Cleaned" that I have pored over with a loupe and found no cleaning hairlines.I cannot for the life of me figure some of it out,
Too much too fast,man. When the hobby that you like to use to relax is causing frustration and aggravation, it's time to step back and re-think some things.
I have tried to focus on one series and learn it to the best of my ability. I have read and re-read the capped bust half dime book, practiced my attributions, and tried to look at as many coins as I can. I have learned to try to differentiate strong from weak strikes, and which die marriages are typical of each. I have joined the JRCS and religiously read the JRJournal.
My main problem, I think, is that I am really finding it difficult to develop an "eye" for coins. A whole lot of my purchases have either downgraded or bagged when I've sent them in for grading. Consistently. The frustrating part is that what I thought were the nicest looking, most problem free examples have been bagged. I know everyone has tough submissions, but when EVERYTHING you submit downgrades you eventually have to face the reality that you are consistently buying overgraded crap.
I used to think it was only a matter of being able to afford the really good-looking coins, but it's not (money doesn't hurt, though!). I see members post some really amazing looking inexpensive, circulated coins. Then there are sets like Cladiator's AU half dime set with beautifully matched coins, or Barndog and Realone's gems, and you think "Man, if I could only pick coins like THAT!"
Then I look at the stuff I've assembled, and it's all over the place. I've rushed too much, gotten excited over average or weak coins, and bought coins against my better judgment. I still cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell an "altered surface" is, or more to the reality, which "altered surfaces" are okay with NGC but not PCGS, or vice versa. I still have coins returned as "Cleaned" that I have pored over with a loupe and found no cleaning hairlines.I cannot for the life of me figure some of it out,
Too much too fast,man. When the hobby that you like to use to relax is causing frustration and aggravation, it's time to step back and re-think some things.
"College men from LSU- went in dumb, come out dumb too..."
-Randy Newman
-Randy Newman
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Comments
<< <i>Too much too fast,man. When the hobby that you like to use to relax is causing frustration and aggravation, it's time to step back and re-think some things. >>
Without a doubt.
That being said, it sounds like you are generally happy up until the grading part. Maybe there are two possible solutions for the short-term at least:
1.) You buy a raw coin because of it's appeal to you. So keep it raw. No need to grade it really unless you're worried about a registry set or reselling immediately.
2.) If for whatever reason you are determined to have all of your coins slabbed, buy 'em that way up front.
Don't worry about competing with other collectors. There's really no point in it. There are way too many factors to consider as to who has what and why... mostly amount of years in the hobby and the amount of money spent. Have goals, sure, but don't get hung up on what others have compared to what you have accumulated.
As for bodybags- you can always post a scan and ask for opinions here. Sometimes it's anyone's guess. We've seen example after example of coins that were bb'd resubmitted and slabbed after the second or third attempt.
It sounds like you could really benefit from a local coin club.
I also get the impression that you don't have a decent B&M. Is that the case?
"enjoy the downs as ups are waiting for you to go through them downs is all"
some newp will come along and smack ya silly as this is a sweet lil hobby we enjoy...sometimes maybe not so much
a lot more than you do
this will eliminate dissappointment and having inferior coins
of course you will pay more , but it will be well worth it
and realizing that you don't know everything is the first step to improvement
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
better to ENJOY your coins just the way you bought 'em, & stop fretting so much about how other people think of them, especially someone like a anonymous, faceless grading co.
are you in the hobby because of coins? or because of grades?
K S
Slow down your buying,
make your next couple purchases slabbed original coins and study those against the BB ones with an advanced collector or dealer.
I don't know how long you have been collecting but buying altered surface coins is something that will occur less frequently over time but still happens even for advanced collectors.
I applaud your efforts to intentionally buy original skin coins.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Herb
I have several learning experience coins to show for my lessons:
The 1723 Irish Halfpenny, the William Wood coinage, that I paid $50 for when I was 14, and that was way too much money for the coin.
The 1910 Hamburg 20 Marks that I bought in Germany and it is a counterfeit.
The overgraded or cleaned paper money that I bought 10 years ago.
Live, love, and learn from the past, that way it doesn't come back and bite you later.
The people you have cited for selecting nice coins probably rejected from 25 to as many as 100 coins for every one they selected.
I will offer the following rule of thumb:
If you are looking at a raw bust coin, the chances are very high (better than 50/50) that the coin is not strictly origninal, i.e., over time, somebody somewhere has done something to it. Your challenge is to figure it out.
Your source of coins could have a lot to do with it. Are you buying raw coins on ebay? There are a few know sellers that dip everything they sell. Pics looks great, but once coin arrives another story.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>My main problem, I think, is that I am really finding it difficult to develop an "eye" for coins. A whole lot of my purchases have either downgraded or bagged when I've sent them in for grading. Consistently. The frustrating part is that what I thought were the nicest looking, most problem free examples have been bagged. >>
Some folks have a natural eye for grading. Others have to take the long slow road. I am in that second group, and likely will never be better than average at grading, despite years and years and years in the hobby, and working on grading. To quote Clint Eastwood, "a man has to know his limitations." That said, there is plenty to enjoy.
In my recent survey on quality vs. price, I wrote that buying an average coin at an average price is a fine aspiration. Even though 66% replied that the coins they are buying are quality for the stated grade, some may be fooling themselves. That especially for those with less than five years in the hobby, and no natural talent for grading, some are picking out what they believe are the nicest coins, but the reality is closer to what you are experiencing, and they are actually getting the low end coins. Some are paying high end prices for that stuff too. It is the numismatic food chain at work.
There is no need to sweat every point in grading. You are on the path of learning, which is not that path that most choose. Maybe you'll never be a top grader, but like I said, there are still plenty of ways to enjoy the hobby. Many times, a mentor be it a collector or dealer can move a person much faster up the learning curve. If you can make it to some bigger shows, it is likely you can meet some others that have the same speciality and talk about some of the finer points of grading, cleaned coins and other issues.
View as many certified examples as you can in hand. View them critically; try to find the reasons a coin graded what it did and even ask if you'd of graded it the same.
Reach out to those few who specialize in the series for advice... I've found Barndog, Mr. HalfDime, and Cladiator to be most helpful and informative.
When you are looking at a possible purchase... check your heart at the door and pretend it's your job to find fault with the coin. (note.. this is usually where I fail myself)
Remember grading is subjective.
Just because a coin BB's doesn't mean it would BB every time.
When you're down remind yourself that even all those you look up to who specialize in that series have had their own share of coins come back in BB's at one point or another.
Here's one of mine.... somehow I'm not real sure it would slab if I sent it in...
edited for misspelling
Sounds to me like you need to find a good mentor or two [edited to add] and a little patience....Mike
Where are the coins? Many of them are sitting in collections. Most of the stuff that you see at the shows has been cleaned, retoned or otherwise ruined. I’ve looked though wholesale dealers’ stocks for an hour at a time and found very little.
The only thing I can tell you is to look for NGC or PCGS slabbed coins. And you might get lucky and find an old time dealer who still has some original stuff. When you find such coins, expect to pay retail for them. You won’t get properly graded circulated bust half dimes and the like for Gray Sheet bid very often. The material is simply not available in any quantity.
1. The "eye" takes time and everyone's is a bit different. Be patient and enjoy the coins, the "eye" will come.
2. DO NOT take what a TPG says about a half dime as gospel. If you think A and the TPG says they think B or C so be it. 9 times out of 10 with these baby busties you're probably right and they're wrong.
Have a great day !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>From one half dime geek to another I've got two points for you.
1. The "eye" takes time and everyone's is a bit different. Be patient and enjoy the coins, the "eye" will come.
2. DO NOT take what a TPG says about a half dime as gospel. If you think A and the TPG says they think B or C so be it. 9 times out of 10 with these baby busties you're probably right and they're wrong. >>
This is a great post and I can't improve upon the advice so I'll just copy it.
<< <i>There is nothing wrong with buying coins that already reside in PCGS holders. >>
I'm not very good at grading coins either; so to avoid the frustrations you've so aptly described, I now only purchase PCGS graded coins. It does limit my selections, and is probably not as "exciting". But it's worth it to me. Remember that coin collecting is supposed to be a relaxing pastime. And it has been for me, for the past 60+yr.
<< <i>why are you measuring your enjoyment & success of this hobby by the way somebody else grades coins? why care so much what pcgs or ngc or whoever thinks of your coins?
better to ENJOY your coins just the way you bought 'em, & stop fretting so much about how other people think of them, especially someone like a anonymous, faceless grading co.
are you in the hobby because of coins? or because of grades?
K S >>
In general, I think you make a good point, but I for one, do care what the grading services think of my coins. Why? Because my "opinions" are worthless when compared to those of PCGS or NGC. At least that's the state of affairs in the current market. It matters when you spend 10k on a TPG coin and another TPG labels it "altered surfaces." Sure, you can thumb your nose at encapsulated grades, but when serious money is involved, you absolutely must consider the status of your investment.
NHSBaseball,
I feel your pain. I have experienced much of the same emotions with regard to grading, "altered surfaces" and so on and so forth. It can be very discouraging.
It's really important to find one or more mentors - dealers or advanced collectors - who can point out what's wrong with your coins.
Is there a local coin club you can join?
Is there a good local dealer?
Are there local or regional shows you can attend?
Can you go to the ANA Summer Session?
You can learn a lot from reading, but you can also learn a lot in person - It's important to do both.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>
<< <i>From one half dime geek to another I've got two points for you.
1. The "eye" takes time and everyone's is a bit different. Be patient and enjoy the coins, the "eye" will come.
2. DO NOT take what a TPG says about a half dime as gospel. If you think A and the TPG says they think B or C so be it. 9 times out of 10 with these baby busties you're probably right and they're wrong. >>
This is a great post and I can't improve upon the advice so I'll just copy it.
While this may be true for veteran expert collectors, I've seen many a forum newbie (less than 5 years in the hobby) that think they know how to grade better than the TPGs. The vast majority of those newbies are wrong, often way out there wrong.
Some people definitely have more talent for grading than others. Eye sight, how a mind focuses, and other genetic factors play a large role. All can improve at the task, however, some start way ahead of others, and some will never get to that level.
-Randy Newman
<< <i>Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. I appreciate it. It was probably not fair of me to spew my frustration on the forum, but I was particularly down about some submission results I had waited a long time for. >>
It could be worse. For instance, sending in a seated dollar graded MS-60 for 'mechanical error' corrections only to have it returned to you (6 months later) in a proof-58 holder worth half what you paid and leaving a tough hole to fill in your set. That'll get you down in a hurry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From one half dime geek to another I've got two points for you.
1. The "eye" takes time and everyone's is a bit different. Be patient and enjoy the coins, the "eye" will come.
2. DO NOT take what a TPG says about a half dime as gospel. If you think A and the TPG says they think B or C so be it. 9 times out of 10 with these baby busties you're probably right and they're wrong. >>
This is a great post and I can't improve upon the advice so I'll just copy it.
While this may be true for veteran expert collectors, I've seen many a forum newbie (less than 5 years in the hobby) that think they know how to grade better than the TPGs. The vast majority of those newbies are wrong, often way out there wrong.
Some people definitely have more talent for grading than others. Eye sight, how a mind focuses, and other genetic factors play a large role. All can improve at the task, however, some start way ahead of others, and some will never get to that level. >>
I don't believe you have to be an expert collector to know how to grade according to TPG standards. I think you have to understand what PCGS is looking for in a coin. Grading is simply an opinion and therefore no grade is wrong or right.
I do agree newbies are much more likely to lose money when they first begin to play the TPG game. The learning curve is steep and these days PCGS appears to be very tight. I will also add that a changing grading standard makes the learning curve that much steeper.
<< <i>The learning curve in this hobby is brutal. Just when you think you're starting to figure it out, something happens to remind you that whatever you think you know is usually inadequate for the most fundamental tasks.
I have tried to focus on one series and learn it to the best of my ability. I have read and re-read the capped bust half dime book, practiced my attributions, and tried to look at as many coins as I can. I have learned to try to differentiate strong from weak strikes, and which die marriages are typical of each. I have joined the JRCS and religiously read the JRJournal.
My main problem, I think, is that I am really finding it difficult to develop an "eye" for coins. A whole lot of my purchases have either downgraded or bagged when I've sent them in for grading. Consistently. The frustrating part is that what I thought were the nicest looking, most problem free examples have been bagged. I know everyone has tough submissions, but when EVERYTHING you submit downgrades you eventually have to face the reality that you are consistently buying overgraded crap.
I used to think it was only a matter of being able to afford the really good-looking coins, but it's not (money doesn't hurt, though!). I see members post some really amazing looking inexpensive, circulated coins. Then there are sets like Cladiator's AU half dime set with beautifully matched coins, or Barndog and Realone's gems, and you think "Man, if I could only pick coins like THAT!"
Then I look at the stuff I've assembled, and it's all over the place. I've rushed too much, gotten excited over average or weak coins, and bought coins against my better judgment. I still cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell an "altered surface" is, or more to the reality, which "altered surfaces" are okay with NGC but not PCGS, or vice versa. I still have coins returned as "Cleaned" that I have pored over with a loupe and found no cleaning hairlines.I cannot for the life of me figure some of it out,
Too much too fast,man. When the hobby that you like to use to relax is causing frustration and aggravation, it's time to step back and re-think some things. >>
Sorry to quote your original post but it depicts exactly what I feel... I often feel I need to refocus my collection and I often rethink my goals. Sadly I do not have enough time to enact on these thoughts but I wanted you yo know your not alone.
Ray
<< <i>It was probably not fair of me to spew my frustration on the forum, but I was particularly down about some submission results I had waited a long time for. >>
Jack, I think your post was fair and thought provoking. The TPG's opinion is never the correct nor the final answer.
I still enjoy the coins for their history and beauty even if they have been cleaned.
All experienced collectors have coins they bought when they started that they would not buy now. To me it is part of the learning process. Some series are almost impossible to complete without buying baggable coins.
"Problem coins" are everywhere and they have to find a home. I do not know of anyone that throws "problem coins" in the trash so you got to sort thru that. 99 percent of the coins bought that get BB'ed are resold without mention of issues.
My raw purchases are way down over the last 2 years, a lot of what i buy i believe is cheaper already in the slab. "Buying skills" are as important as "grading skills" nowadays
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I'm Down
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>It was probably not fair of me to spew my frustration on the forum >>
Dude, EVERYBODY does it sooner or later. Don't sweat the little things and keep buying coins that put a smile on your face.
Check out my recent thread, titled, "Cracked out coin bad results"