Different side of the table, as a dealer is it ok to cherrypick a customer?

copperfan

If the dealer is suppose to have a certain knowledge and understanding about what he is buying and selling, and someone walks in with a rare variety. Is it ethically ok if the dealer cherrypicks it without disclosing what it is to the customer?

adamlaneus

Ethics questions suck. The answer is yes or no depending upon definitions and argumentation.

I wish we were talking about used cars, then no ethics would be involved and everything would be fair.

SanctionII

A question to which there will never be any definitive answer. The same goes for a collector cherrypicking a dealer.

However, I supsect that some in society have a world view where the desired goal is complete, total, everlasting, interminable equality for all (except for those "elites" [i.e. politicians and top dog civil servants] who are special and thus more equal than the masses and thus entitled to more), including equality of opportunity (a good thing IMHO) and equality of outcome (horrible IMHO). Under such a world view, cherrypicking would be outlawed completely and the prices of coins standardized, regulated and controlled by big brother so that everyone is protected from the evils of "profit" (thereby insuring everyone in the hobby would be equal.......................ly miserableisgust.

Cherrypicking based upon higher knowledge and experience is, in general a good thing. Educate yourself and you will minimize your chances of getting the raw end of a deal. However, when it comes to ripping the unknowledgable masses (i.e. the widow of a deceased collector), your own moral compass should compel you to treat her fairly, unless you do not have a moral compass, in which case you are slime.

Just my two cents.

BlindedByEgo

It's called ripping a customer off.

lordmarcovan

It's a good question.

Ethical or no, it goes on all the time. I suppose there are matters of degrees involved, too, like how bad a ripoff is being perpetrated?

A dealer usually (though not always) is in a superior position as regards to knowledge. That position gives him power and he's entitled to reap some benefit for his knowledge. However, with that superior knowledge comes responsibility.

(PS- yeah, I know- that's no answer at all.)

bidask

<< <i>If the dealer is suppose to have a certain knowledge and understanding about what he is buying and selling, and someone walks in with a rare variety. Is it ethically ok if the dealer cherrypicks it without disclosing what it is to the customer? >>

I think it happens some of the time.

And as far as a collector "cherrypicking a dealer"........well see how that would stand up in court.

morgansforever

Dealers are in business to make money, like any other business.

Just a matter of how bad you want to gouge them.

The flip side, dealers have expenses, ie. escorts, advertising, gambling, rent/lease, etc...

I believe he mentioned 2k a week just for the escort, poor guy.

Scott

morgansforever

<<A dealer usually (though not always) is in a superior position as regards to knowledge. That position gives him power and he's entitled to reap some benefit for his knowledge. However, with that superior knowledge comes responsibility.>>

To add to your point, information on bullion and coins is out there, via magazines, the net, book stores, etc.....

Anyone can buy a Redbook or a CPG, and identify an 88O Hotlips.

Or use a search engine to determine the price of PMs.

Do your research people.

Scott

copperfan

<<And as far as a collector "cherrypicking a dealer"........well see how that would stand up in court.>>

Why would a collector end up in court for cherrypicking a coin dealer?

ziggy29

It's not *specifically* the dealer/collector or buyer/seller relationship that determines the ethics. It depends on a number of factors.

coinkat

I think a coin dealer has fiduciary duty to a customer that comes to him anticipating that the dealer will act as an expert... and provide an opinion as to the value of a coin whether buying or not

A collector that visits a dealer and cherry picks from a dealer has no obligation to the dealer because the dealer is the expert and has offered his inventory for sale after having the opportunity to examine the coins. A collector may choose to educate a dealer or point out what the variety may be, however, and they may choose to do that for various reasons.

pursuitofliberty

good question, and I think it matters who the customer is ...

Two examples ...

I go into my local shop and want to sell 10 common-date Unc Walking Lib's ... in the group is a 46 DDR ... he knows I collect, he knows I am knowledgable ... he asks, maybe $ 50. for this one? I say yeah, sounds good (I was thinking 35-40. tops). Did he cherrypick me? Yes. Was it okay for him too. Yeah, I think it was. I should have paid attention, and he certainly did.

My mother walks into a shop (I don't think she has any coins but humor me) and wants to sell 10 Walking Lib's ... the dealer doesn't know her ... she has some nice Unc's including a 35-S, a 37-D and S and a 38-D in the group. He makes her an offer of $100. for the lot. Not knowing, she asks if this is a fair price? He assures her it is. She accepts. Did he cherrypick her? Yes (although I would call it a bit worse). Was it okay for him too. No, I don't think it was. Especially IF she asked if that was a fair price. She doen't know and he knows she doesn't know. If offering even 50% of what he could move them at (since Unc Walkers would move), I would say he did her better than most.


MHO

bidask

<< <i><<And as far as a collector "cherrypicking a dealer"........well see how that would stand up in court.>>

Why would a collector end up in court for cherrypicking a coin dealer? >>

If the dealer took him to court for cherrypicking him.

copperfan

For what? He advertised a coin for a price and someone bought it.

Blackhawk

As a collector who generally tries to keep up on varieties, I still at times end up on the losing end of a rip. I don't let it upset me, after all, I get my chances to do the same thing at times. I feel totally different about sellers who are not collectors and are seen as easy marks by certain dealers - I think that these dealers do have some responsibility to treat people decently (remember the golden rule?). It's really bad when you see a dealer raping someone while a Christian music station plays over the speakers in the background - I've seen this happen.

mgoodm3

I don't think that the dealer technically has a fiduciary responsibility, but ethically the principle applies. Since the dealer is the "expert" he should have more responsiblity for delaing fairly with customers.

Don't mix ethics and business - they don't mix well.

copperfan

<<If the dealer took him to court for cherrypicking him. >>



Can anyone name 1 instance of this happening?

busco69

Yes of course.But the customer is not obligated to sell his or her coin.

BECOKA

If the customer comes to the dealer as the expert then no.

If the customer is aware of what he has and settles for a lowball price then yes but it's no longer a cherry pick.

If the dealer does not realize it is a variety till later then well maybe.

There are many answers.

NHSBaseball

There is no easy answer to this question- there are too many factors to be considered. I am sure that it happens all the time. In the grand scheme of things, educating yourself about what you have is not that difficult given the internet, books, and other publications.

rjsriv

I can see both sides of this-- knowledge is power. if you do your research you won't get taken advantage of

timcoin

Assuming this seller is a non-collector, why would he go from table to table and get individual prices for each coin they own? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a handful of dealers just shoot you a price for the whole lot, and then sell the entire collection to the highest bidder?

roadrunner

Is it ok to cherrypick a customer? With regards to coins you sold that customer in the past (ex. old holders with good upgrade shots) there should be some education going on. Unfortunately, I rarely see it happen. A lot of times the dealer will ask the customer what he wants for the coins. The customer usually has been out of the loop for years and often lowballs himself. Again, that's especially true of older holdered coins. There should be a higher standard among the business.

roadrunner

Blackhawk

If the dealer shows you what he ripped from someone while gloating, or laughs at the seller, or brags about "robbing" someone, then I think that he knows that he didn't act honorably in the transaction. Unfortunately, I've seen this happen many times and thought less of the dealer because of it. If he/she makes an attempt to pay fairly, I don't have a problem with dealers making a decent profit, after all, that's what they're in business for. I know some dealers who are very honorable. When a dealer asks "how much do you want for it", or "how long ago did you get this", it's usually a good time to exit while your pants are still around your waist.

jessewvu

How about if a buyer rips a dealer. If that is OK with you, then it should be OK for a dealer to rip a customer. You can't say it is OK with one side and not OK with the other.

With that said, there is cherry picking and then taking advantage of someone. Cherry picking seems to suggest that a lot of people are offered the coin, and you just happen to be the one that finds it. Taking advantage of someone is when you are the only one presented with the information and use it for your gain.

copperfan

<<How about if a buyer rips a dealer. If that is OK with you, then it should be OK for a dealer to rip a customer. You can't say it is OK with one side and not OK with the other. >>


I disagree.

The dealer is in a business where certain things can mean alot of money. Its his duty to prepare himself and do the proper work. If he offers his knowledge and expertise, than I believe he should be honest if he discovers something in a collection he is looking over.


If a dealer buy a lot of 1000 pieces and later finds a rare variety, do I think he is responsible to infor the previous owner? No.


To rip someone off is entirely different.

A dealer and a collector should not be looked at the same.

jessewvu

I agree with you, the second paragraph goes into that a little bit. Cherrypicking means that the coin is available to anyone, and you cherry pick it from among many. Definition: selection of only the best: the activity of pursuing the most lucrative, advantageous, or profitable among various options and leaving the less attractive ones for others.

I think you are talking about two different things. Taking advantage of someone and cherrypicking. They might seem the same but they are in fact different. I think in one case (taking advantage) you single out a person for a coin. Cherrypicking, you single out a coin for a person. It's late and I don't think i am making sense. Good luck with this internet argument.

Blackhawk

<< <i>How about if a buyer rips a dealer. If that is OK with you, then it should be OK for a dealer to rip a customer. You can't say it is OK with one side and not OK with the other. >>



I disagree in the sense that some sellers are completely ignorant of what they're items are worth, thus are not on a level playing field when it comes to these transactions. If I get ripped, I look at it as part of the game - my knowledge level is on somewhat equal terms with the dealer. If a newbie or oldster gets bent over, that's another matter entirely, and something that I consider unethical at best. Just my opinion...I'm not a dealer.

pennyannie

A large number of sales made to a dealer are done because of the seller needing cash. The seller is already in a bad position and the dealer knows this. I have seen many a dealer rip off a unsespecting customer. Coin dealers are no better than pawn shops in this reguard. I originally got into the coin hobby becasue i thought it was a honest hobby. Did not take long to see the light. Anytime money is involved all ethics seem to go out the window. What is a far profit? That is hard to determine. Eduction is the key but not the answer cause it is never going to happen across the board. I can cite example after example of dealer rip off and lies but nothing will change. Life is not fair and never will be so rip offs are fine. I thought dealers pledged to be honest and fair when they joined the ANA??? That is a laugh.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>A large number of sales made to a dealer are done because of the seller needing cash. >>

It doesn't matter what you're selling, if you need fast cash, you'll be at a disadvantage. Nobody is obligated to pay you what you think you should get for your stuff, just because you need the money.

"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

OKbustchaser

It is either right both ways or it is wrong both ways. There is no difference based on what side of the counter one happens to be on.

copperfan

I disagree.



A coin collector and a coin dealer are two seprate things and imho shouldnt be considered the same.

OKbustchaser

If a dealer is "ripping off" the customer by cherrypicking then how is there any logical reason why the reverse isn't true? Either way the seller is selling for what HE thinks is the coin's worth. Either way the buyer is taking advantage of the seller's lack of knowledge.