The Coin Collector Protection Act of 2009
nycounsel
Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
Based on another thread in which I was critical of the Mint's policies and what I perceive to be their negative impact on our hobby, I offer for consideration and comment:
The Coin Collector Protection Act of 2009.
To ensure the long-term sustainability of the numismatic industry, it is hereby resolved that:
(1) CIRCULATING COINS The Mint shall issue all rolls and bags of circulating coins at no more than a 10% premium over face value;
(2) PACKAGING The Mint shall be restrained in packaging options, so that any coin made shall be sold in no more than 2 different packages in any given calendar year;
(3) COMMEMORATIVES The Mint shall be limited to no more than 2 commemorative coin designs in any given calendar year, to be minted in gold and/or silver only, with no more than 2 finishes- one proof or variety thereof (i.e., reverse proof), one uncirculated or variety thereof (i.e., burnished finish)- from no more than one of the Mint branches;
(4) BULLION COINS The Mint shall limit bullion offerings to the American Eagle coin series, in silver, gold and platinum, in uncirculated and/or proof only, and no other special finishes (i.e., reverse proof, burnished uncirculated), from any one of the operating Mints, in any calendar year;
(5) PRICING OF BULLION The Mint shall price bullion coins at no greater than a 20% premium to spot, to be set on the day of first production;
(6) TIMELY SHARING OF INFORMATION The Mint shall announce the upcoming availability of any issue no less than 1 week prior to the date of first offering, and shall similarly announce the end of an offering no less than 1 week prior to the series termination or, for those coins with limited mintages, immediately after the remaining supply reaches 10% or less of the total authorized mintage; and the Mint shall endeavor to announce any other changes in its offerings or policies, and its reasons for doing so, within 72 hours of such determination;
(7) FINAL MINTAGE FIGURES The Mint shall be required to issue audited mintage figures for all coins minted, sold, returned and/or destroyed in each calendar year within 6 months of the last day of issue or no later than June 30 of the following calendar year, whichever comes first;
(8) IMMEDIATE TERMINATION The following coin series are terminated effective immediately (unless designated as a commemorative under Paragraph (3) above): (a) First spouse gold coins, as they are horrible coins; (b) Presidential dollars, as they are equally horrible coins; (c) Sacagawea dollars, because it's time to admit that they are failures; (d) Buffalo gold coins, because, while they are beautiful coins, the line must be drawn somewhere; (e) the Kennedy half dollar, because outside of the occassional use by casinos, those coins stopped circulating sometime around 1966; (f) spoons. because they are spoons.
(9) NEW DOLLAR COIN The Mint will offer a new dollar coin, similar in diameter, width, weight and color, to the British pound, as Britain has proven that a circulating dollar coin CAN work when it is well-designed, and if you can't beat them, join them.
The Coin Collector Protection Act of 2009.
To ensure the long-term sustainability of the numismatic industry, it is hereby resolved that:
(1) CIRCULATING COINS The Mint shall issue all rolls and bags of circulating coins at no more than a 10% premium over face value;
(2) PACKAGING The Mint shall be restrained in packaging options, so that any coin made shall be sold in no more than 2 different packages in any given calendar year;
(3) COMMEMORATIVES The Mint shall be limited to no more than 2 commemorative coin designs in any given calendar year, to be minted in gold and/or silver only, with no more than 2 finishes- one proof or variety thereof (i.e., reverse proof), one uncirculated or variety thereof (i.e., burnished finish)- from no more than one of the Mint branches;
(4) BULLION COINS The Mint shall limit bullion offerings to the American Eagle coin series, in silver, gold and platinum, in uncirculated and/or proof only, and no other special finishes (i.e., reverse proof, burnished uncirculated), from any one of the operating Mints, in any calendar year;
(5) PRICING OF BULLION The Mint shall price bullion coins at no greater than a 20% premium to spot, to be set on the day of first production;
(6) TIMELY SHARING OF INFORMATION The Mint shall announce the upcoming availability of any issue no less than 1 week prior to the date of first offering, and shall similarly announce the end of an offering no less than 1 week prior to the series termination or, for those coins with limited mintages, immediately after the remaining supply reaches 10% or less of the total authorized mintage; and the Mint shall endeavor to announce any other changes in its offerings or policies, and its reasons for doing so, within 72 hours of such determination;
(7) FINAL MINTAGE FIGURES The Mint shall be required to issue audited mintage figures for all coins minted, sold, returned and/or destroyed in each calendar year within 6 months of the last day of issue or no later than June 30 of the following calendar year, whichever comes first;
(8) IMMEDIATE TERMINATION The following coin series are terminated effective immediately (unless designated as a commemorative under Paragraph (3) above): (a) First spouse gold coins, as they are horrible coins; (b) Presidential dollars, as they are equally horrible coins; (c) Sacagawea dollars, because it's time to admit that they are failures; (d) Buffalo gold coins, because, while they are beautiful coins, the line must be drawn somewhere; (e) the Kennedy half dollar, because outside of the occassional use by casinos, those coins stopped circulating sometime around 1966; (f) spoons. because they are spoons.
(9) NEW DOLLAR COIN The Mint will offer a new dollar coin, similar in diameter, width, weight and color, to the British pound, as Britain has proven that a circulating dollar coin CAN work when it is well-designed, and if you can't beat them, join them.
Dan
0
Comments
Instead of making this about us collectors, why dont we make it about our mint. They make crap and charge an arm and leg for it, then want you to smile and ask for more.
Why does the Mint get to charge spot for bullion,+ 20%? Dont they get tax money to help produce our nations coinage?
Why not stop making all this crap and saying its for collectors, and start making coins and products WE want?
Mintage figures sghould not be a guess or estimation, they should show what the hell they are making and do so in a timely manner. Dont we have a thing called the freedom of information act?
Also, I like the idea of limiting the # of commem's the mint can produce.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
You are ignoring me.....
I think we need to make sure that there is never again a SBA or Special Olympic scary designs..... We have to think of the children
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Perhaps the OP would like to go back to the way it used to be, collect your coins from circulation and order your proof sets, 5 at a time max, mid year and then receive them at the end of the year. Same with uncirculated coin sets. No more Internet ordering, everything goes back to "snail" mail.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
Why does the Mint get to charge spot for bullion,+ 20%? Dont they get tax money to help produce our nations coinage? >>
True, but bullion is not considered to be part of "our nation's coinage" as it made for collectors.
<< <i>Mintage figures sghould not be a guess or estimation, they should show what the hell they are making and do so in a timely manner. Dont we have a thing called the freedom of information act? >>
Your statement is paradoxical. You want them to announce all mintages. The Freedom of Information Act is specifically designed to obtain information that has not been announced and/or released.
to the OP:
I think you are terminating too many series effective immediately. We will be left with American Eagles, much smaller Mint and Proof Sets, and potentially two commems each year. Where's the fun in that? Now I do agree that they are making too many options today, but not sure if we should kill off all the dollar coins and half dollars. I circulate 'em
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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<< <i>TheRaven, if memory serves, the only person that ever gave a darn about Ohio was the evil British officer in the Patriot and we all know what happened to him. Oh,exit stage right, please. Respectfully, John Curlis >>
You are not allowed to talk about Ohio like that.....
You hate children that is what it is.....
If you like the mint's products then buy them, if not don't
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<< <i>mrearlygold, I am getting a picture of a certain British King entering the stage
That guy didn't do 1/100000 of what has already taken place here.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>Why does the Mint get to charge spot for bullion,+ 20%? Dont they get tax money to help produce our nations coinage? >>
True, but bullion is not considered to be part of "our nation's coinage" as it made for collectors. >>
Not entirely true. The us mint has only recently made "collectible" silver bullion coins which have the W mint mark. Prior to that, the "Proof versions" were considered "collectibles".
The original intent was to:
"...........provide investors with a convenient and cost-effective way to add a small amount of physical platinum, gold, or silver to their investment portfolios. Since their launch in 1986, gold, platinum and silver American Eagles have become leading bullion coin investment products."
Coin collectors made the bullion coins collectible whereas the government intended them for "bullion investing".
The name is LEE!
<< <i>We have moved from the sublime to the ridiculous.... Cheers, RickO >>
HERE! HERE!
<< <i>Aren't coin collectors covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act? >>
Yes, I know that no one is forcing us to buy what the Mint makes.
But that doesn't mean that the Mint should have license to issue everything and anything, without some consideration for collectors, and without respect for its position.
As the collectors for whom the Mint's non-circulating coins are intended, our voice and our concerns SHOULD be heard, and the long term interests of the hobby should also be considered.
I guess we have a committee of people who have some input on coin designs, but seriously, taking a look at the Mint's website, it seems to me that things are getting out of hand. The different permutations of what's out there right now is dizzying. Reverse proofs? Are colorized coins next?
We can refuse to buy, but if that were to occur, what would happen? Those unwanted coins don't disappear. They are forever part of the hobby, duly recorded in our reference books as part of our numismatic heritage.
"Don't buy them" only avoids responsibility. Each product should be considered before it is made and, in some cases, someone should have said "don't make them," because once they are made, the damage is done.
Also, "don't buy them" doesn't work. Why? Because frequently, unwanted products become low mintage rarities and the value goes up. Knowing this, some among us will always buy; there will always be some demand. This isn't a private mint, which relies on market demand to keep the business going. This is the U.S. Mint. It can and does make coins without regard to profitability. There is no disincentive to make coins that don't sell. All of us, as collectors of US coins, are compelled to recognize and accept coins issued by the Mint as inherently collectible. This largely eliminates the disincentive that the market, via low sales, would normally provide to force the Mint not to abuse its position.
My proposed "Act", though written tongue-in-cheek as if it was a piece of legislation, is simply a list of ways I think the Mint could better serve us as collectors. Some apparently think that is not the job of the Mint, and that we should just pick or choose from the many crumbs now available from its table. I disagree. The way I see it, everything outside of circulating coins produced by the Mint is made for us, marketed and sold to us; we are the intended consumers. Much of what I wrote boils down to this:
1. Keep markups on rolls and bags reasonable.
2. Quit offering us the same coins dressed up in different packages.
3. Stop with the gimmicks. Reverse proofs, burnished coins, matte finishes, tossing a "w" mintmark on for fun... this is happening more and more, not because there's a demand by collectors for it, but as a way to force some of us to spend more.
4. Tell us what the final mintages are within a reasonable time of stopping production.
5. Give us a heads up before you pull the plug on what's available. Don't just do it and leave us scratching our heads.
I'm sure that others have their own ideas. What surprises me is how many seem more bothered that I might say "enough already" than by the fact that the Mint is abusing its position in its relationship with us, and seems to have lost sight of the historical significance of its position.
Although I don't collect everything that the Mint makes, as a collector of U.S coins, I certainly have a present and continued interest in everything that our Mint produces. You should too. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't change that once its made, we're stuck with it regardless. As collectors, and people who care about coins and U.S. coins in particular, we SHOULD be pointing out to Mint, the sole supplier of what we collect, and the caretaker of our numismatic history, things that should be different. Granted, there will be different opinions about which issues have merit, or what should or shouldn't be produced. Not everyone is going to agree with all of the 9 items in my list.
But who could disagree that the price for rolls and bags is ridiculous? Those aren't specialty items. The Mint has to make them anyway. What possibly justifies the markup?
Who could disagree that the Mint should provide mintage figures within 6 months of the end of production? Once production stops, all the data should be there. Do those numbers become more accurate over time? When many modern coins have mintages of 5,000 and 20,000, what is taking so long? For precious metal coins, I'd expect that there would be controls in place and accountability at every step of the way.
Things can be better, they should be better, and we should encourage the Mint to make them better.
Oh, please...
I don't collect every type of coin, but I think of myself as a U.S. coin collector, and I try to be generally familiar with all U.S. coins, to recognize the designs and be familiar with key dates.
<< <i>
(8) IMMEDIATE TERMINATION The following coin series are terminated effective immediately (unless designated as a commemorative under Paragraph (3) above): (a) First spouse gold coins, as they are horrible coins; (b) Presidential dollars, as they are equally horrible coins; (c) Sacagawea dollars, because it's time to admit that they are failures; (d) Buffalo gold coins, because, while they are beautiful coins, the line must be drawn somewhere; (e) the Kennedy half dollar, because outside of the occassional use by casinos, those coins stopped circulating sometime around 1966; (f) spoons. because they are spoons. >>
Sorry, But I like First Spouse Gold, Gold Buffalos & Presidential Dollars.
I also collect Sacagawea Dollars and have my share of Kennedy Halves.
The only thing that would help all would be to limit the price gouging of bullion coins from the mint.
Gardnerville, NV
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I also collect Sacagawea Dollars and have my share of Kennedy Halves.
well, I didn't expect to get 100% support for a proposal to eliminate some of the existing coin series.
The point is more that we have several overlapping coins that muddy the waters. I can see how the gold buffalos will be popular; they have a classic design that most collectors have always appreciated.
My issue with the First Spouse golds and Presidential dollars have to do with taste and overkill. Personally, I think the presidential dollars are a real waste. I think that most of the coins are ugly, and the 3/4 portraits are not appealing. Moving the year and motto to the edge seemed interesting, but proved to be a disaster. And they don't circulate. Their predecessors, the SBA and the Sac had always had problems being accepted as money by non-collectors, and didn't circulate. The Presidential dollars just futher muddy the waters. The continually changing designs only further detract from the recognition needed to have a workable circulating dollar coin. My opinions on the First Spouse golds are that they are expensive, mostly ugly, gratuitous.
Anyway, we'll all have our own impressions of these series, and it seems that you and others don't agree with my premise that the Mint is putting too many things out there at once.
But just assuming for the sake of argument that too many coins are hurting the hobby, and that it would be a good idea to cut production, it seems reasonable to me to suggest that offerings should be curtailed to just one series of annual gold coins (either the American Eagles or the Buffalos), one dollar coin design, etc.
My issue with the half dollar is that it hasn't circulated for 30 years, and doesn't really serve a purpose. Just kill it already. The Sac should have been killed with the introduction of the Presidential dollars, but instead is going to join the changing design crowd.
I do think that we should stick with having a dollar coin, but let's change the composition and size now, so it has a chance to actually circulate. The current Sacs and Presidential dollar coins have already been rejected by the public and we have stubbornly stuck with the same size coin for 30 years. The problem with the SBA was not only the color, it was the size. The golden dollar, with its quickly tarnished finish, and unpopular size, is a confirmed failure as a circulating coin. We should alter the size and composition to something that might circulate -- I think the British pound coin serves as a good model. Staying the course with our tired and useless dollar and half dollar coins-- coins that we have known for decades will not circulate-- is a waste of time and resources.
The status of the dollar in coinage form is a complete failure and total mess. The matter of the coins size may or may not be the solution but would be the best route to explore, increasing its size to that of the half dollar or close to it. The half dollar, as much as I like collecting the denomation, has no real function in commerce.
Many posts indicate the profit motive of the Mint/Congress for the increasing array of mint products. Without a doubt their goal is to at least make the Mint an agency that does have a net cost to the government and in fact has a surplus, hence they are looking for a profit. The increasing number of mint products has a high likely hood of resulting in decreasing returns as the same collecting dollars are spread over various new offerings. The fast moving pricing changes in PMs may hurt the ability of the Mint to turn a profit on some of their bullion and commerative products.
Looking at all the large number of issues coming out next year, the changing prices in PMs, and the reduced disposable income of many households, next year may well be the highwater mark of Mint products. Going past 2009 they may possibly go with a greater number of "packaging" promotions such as the 8-8-08 while decreasing the variety of coins being produced. It is difficult to forsee a postive result for the Mint if current conditions continue to prevail.
If next year does prove to result in either decreased gross receipts or lower net income or both the Mint may look north.
They could possibly attempt doing as Canada does,a great variety of coins but having extemely low mintages such as 1,500,2000, 10,000 etc. Not sure how the politics of Congress would play into this, can go either way, not difficult to envision numerous congressmen promoting and passing limited mintage coins for various reasons. Hopefully they do not try that path although they seem to be heading that way in many respects.
i was getting out of breath reading that..