It's also been rumored (and publicly stated by Liriano's agent) that the Twins may be holding him back in an effort to delay his eligibility for arbitration/free agency. For a smaller market team like the Twins, looking longer term, that may also be a possibility, though it's not one that their fans should be happy with.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was under the impression that the arbitration date has already passed. I recognized that aspect in one of my earlier posts.
My biggest beef is with the Twins saying there is no room for him in the rotation because of how good the staff has pitched. To say that Livan has pitched good is relying on his Won/Loss record as the barometer for goodness.
I think Livan Hernandez's performance has been dissected pretty good in this thread, and I don't know how a rational human being can say he has actually pitched 'good' unless they consider below average to be good. I also don't know how a rational human being can say he really pitched any different than Carlos Silva or Joe Blaton(two guys who are looked at as failures this year because of their poor record).
The bottom line is that Livan has been below average, plain and simple.
The other two young guys should be looked at as..."you did better than expected, thanks. Time for our ace to take over." Because if the Twins are counting on Blackburn and the other guy to continue the rest of their season with their ERA's remaining, then they are probably fooling themselves, and are shooting themslves in the foot by keeping a better pitcher out of the rotation.
I was under the impression that the arbitration date has already passed. I recognized that aspect in one of my earlier posts.
I didn't see any reference from you to that aspect in any of your previous posts. The story I read on the topic was that the longer the Twins can delay his return to the majors, the less net credited service he'll have accumulated and the longer it'll take him to be eligible for arbitartion or free agency.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Francisco Liriano's agent has contacted the players' association about pursuing a grievance against the Twins for not promoting him. Perhaps Liriano has himself stashed away in his fantasy league. He is 7-0 with a 2.73 ERA in his last nine starts at Triple-A, and his fastball is consistently in the mid-90s and touching 97. He is claiming that the Twins are purposely keeping him in the minors to limit his major league service time and thus his arbitration eligibility. Livan Hernandez has a 7.28 ERA in his past ten starts, but he's also owed $5 million this season. Liriano could have major league service time added to his total if he wins.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was under the impression that the date had passed. Maybe it hasn't. I thought I mentioned that earlier.
This July 11th report from Rotowire was where I first heard it..."Liriano should be at the point where he won't qualify for arbitration after the season (he was at risk as a "Super Two" player if called up earlier this month), but needs a spot to open up in the rotation. If Livan Hernandez struggles his next few outings, the Twins may be forced to make a change."
He is supposed to pitch Sunday again the Minors. I'm not familiar with the arbitration dates. Maybe it is Aug 1st.
Garza is definitely one of the more promising young pitchers in the league.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So far since I have posted this thread, Livan Hernandez has had the following outings...
7IP 2ER 8IP 5ER 4IP 5ER
This is typical for his pattern ALL season...one good game, one below average game, and one ugly game. The difference now is that his record is 1-2 in these three starts, including a shelling tonight with 11 baserunners in 4 innings, blowing a chance to put the Twins into first.
Everyone in the Twins management got all wet over his lucky 9-6 record, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS PITCHED THE SAME WHEN 9-6 AS HE HAS IN THESE LAST THREE GAMES WHERE HE IS 1-2! Many here got excited here as well...citing factors as a few bad outings causing a misleading record, or grits and guts, etc...
The thing that got EVERYBODY excited was the W/L record. But that d a m n thing was a mirage, hiding how poorly he has really pitched. People need to stop getting mesmerized by the W/L record. Hernandez was fortunate that his teammates got him a win in EVERY good game he pitched, and managed to avoid having him get credit for a loss in some poor games. If all pitchers could be so lucky, nobody would have a losing record.
As I said, somebody needs to be fired in Minnesota for not understanding basic logic. They said time and time again that the staff has been pitching good, and that there is no room for Liriano. Arbitration may have been an underlying factor, but Gardenhire said there is no room again and again. The 9-6 record fooled him, and others.
No question his record is deceptively good. I'm having a difficult time, however, truly believing that Twins management (and Gardenhire) were really hoodwinked or "got" by the W-L record, especially these days when formerly obscure stats like K:BB and WHIP are much more popular than they used to be. I suspect there were other, more prominent factors involved in Hernanndez' place in the rotation and Liriano's stay in the minors (and Liriano and his agent, I'm sure, would agree). And as long as the record was good and the veteran, more highly paid Hernandez was putting up the wins, there was no no real outcry or push to make a change from the fans (who are definitely more easily hoodwinked). Gardenhire, by all accounts, has done a great job managing a smaller market team over the last few years, and successive trips to the postseason are real accomplishments for a club like Minnesota, so you know he didn't just fall off the turnip truck. Just my 2 cents.
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As I suspected at the time of the thread, Livan is out. If the Twins lose the division by a game that last start they gave him vs. the Sox is going to be a big disappointment.
Well, the charade is finally over, and the Twins finally made the move they should have made about 6 weeks ago. Makes you wonder if the true goal is to put the team on the field that gives you the best chance to win, or if other more sinister considerations are taken into account.
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<< <i>..or if other more sinister considerations are taken into account.... >>
It was blatant. They didn't want Liriano to arbitration eligible after this season, so they had to keep him in the minors until today. They also would have had to pay Livan another $250K with a few more innings pitched. All the parties are somewhat at fault. The Twins are egregiously guilty of not giving replacing Livan six starts ago. They did win two of those six starts.
Liriano from all accounts didn't show up ready to pitch at spring training this year. He was overweight and not prepared which is pretty much inexcusible coming of his injury. He also had a lot at stake. If he would have put in a full season this year his next year payday would have been large. Now the Twins will pay him 1st contract money.
Livan has only himself to blame as well. He would throw seven innings and six would be scoreless. Unfortunatly the other inning would yield 4-6 runs.
Good points, sagard, and most certainly on the money, so to speak...
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Comments
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was under the impression that the arbitration date has already passed. I recognized that aspect in one of my earlier posts.
My biggest beef is with the Twins saying there is no room for him in the rotation because of how good the staff has pitched. To say that Livan has pitched good is relying on his Won/Loss record as the barometer for goodness.
I think Livan Hernandez's performance has been dissected pretty good in this thread, and I don't know how a rational human being can say he has actually pitched 'good' unless they consider below average to be good. I also don't know how a rational human being can say he really pitched any different than Carlos Silva or Joe Blaton(two guys who are looked at as failures this year because of their poor record).
The bottom line is that Livan has been below average, plain and simple.
The other two young guys should be looked at as..."you did better than expected, thanks. Time for our ace to take over." Because if the Twins are counting on Blackburn and the other guy to continue the rest of their season with their ERA's remaining, then they are probably fooling themselves, and are shooting themslves in the foot by keeping a better pitcher out of the rotation.
I was under the impression that the arbitration date has already passed. I recognized that aspect in one of my earlier posts.
I didn't see any reference from you to that aspect in any of your previous posts. The story I read on the topic was that the longer the Twins can delay his return to the majors, the less net credited service he'll have accumulated and the longer it'll take him to be eligible for arbitartion or free agency.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Francisco Liriano's agent has contacted the players' association about pursuing a grievance against the Twins for not promoting him.
Perhaps Liriano has himself stashed away in his fantasy league. He is 7-0 with a 2.73 ERA in his last nine starts at Triple-A, and his fastball is consistently in the mid-90s and touching 97. He is claiming that the Twins are purposely keeping him in the minors to limit his major league service time and thus his arbitration eligibility. Livan Hernandez has a 7.28 ERA in his past ten starts, but he's also owed $5 million this season. Liriano could have major league service time added to his total if he wins.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was under the impression that the date had passed. Maybe it hasn't. I thought I mentioned that earlier.
This July 11th report from Rotowire was where I first heard it..."Liriano should be at the point where he won't qualify for arbitration after the season (he was at risk as a "Super Two" player if called up earlier this month), but needs a spot to open up in the rotation. If Livan Hernandez struggles his next few outings, the Twins may be forced to make a change."
He is supposed to pitch Sunday again the Minors. I'm not familiar with the arbitration dates. Maybe it is Aug 1st.
Other reports have said his arrival is imminent.
Erik
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
7IP 2ER
8IP 5ER
4IP 5ER
This is typical for his pattern ALL season...one good game, one below average game, and one ugly game. The difference now is that his record is 1-2 in these three starts, including a shelling tonight with 11 baserunners in 4 innings, blowing a chance to put the Twins into first.
Everyone in the Twins management got all wet over his lucky 9-6 record, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS PITCHED THE SAME WHEN 9-6 AS HE HAS IN THESE LAST THREE GAMES WHERE HE IS 1-2! Many here got excited here as well...citing factors as a few bad outings causing a misleading record, or grits and guts, etc...
The thing that got EVERYBODY excited was the W/L record. But that d a m n thing was a mirage, hiding how poorly he has really pitched. People need to stop getting mesmerized by the W/L record. Hernandez was fortunate that his teammates got him a win in EVERY good game he pitched, and managed to avoid having him get credit for a loss in some poor games. If all pitchers could be so lucky, nobody would have a losing record.
As I said, somebody needs to be fired in Minnesota for not understanding basic logic. They said time and time again that the staff has been pitching good, and that there is no room for Liriano. Arbitration may have been an underlying factor, but Gardenhire said there is no room again and again. The 9-6 record fooled him, and others.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>..or if other more sinister considerations are taken into account.... >>
It was blatant. They didn't want Liriano to arbitration eligible after this season, so they had to keep him in the minors until today. They also would have had to pay Livan another $250K with a few more innings pitched. All the parties are somewhat at fault. The Twins are egregiously guilty of not giving replacing Livan six starts ago. They did win two of those six starts.
Liriano from all accounts didn't show up ready to pitch at spring training this year. He was overweight and not prepared which is pretty much inexcusible coming of his injury. He also had a lot at stake. If he would have put in a full season this year his next year payday would have been large. Now the Twins will pay him 1st contract money.
Livan has only himself to blame as well. He would throw seven innings and six would be scoreless. Unfortunatly the other inning would yield 4-6 runs.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.