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What is so appealing about 173 hits in 120 innings? Minnesota gone crazy?
Hoopster
Posts: 1,169
in Sports Talk
Minnesota is considering sending Francisco Liriano to the bullpen because their rotation has been "so good."
Which leads me to question why Livan Hernandez is being considered a positive to the Twins rotation. This guy is pure meat. He has given up 173 hits in a 120 innings. His ERA is sitting at a chunky 5.44, with an ERA+ of 73 (100 is average).
Ahhh, it is because he is 9-6. The dreaded won/loss record blinding the truth as usual. Nothing like good run support and pure luck.
Liriano is catching fire now, and they are gong to keep a piece of garbage in their rotation.
I wouldn't be too keen on Glen Perkins either.
The dreaded won/loss record as an indicator of goodness is at work here, as is the over valuing of a middle man.
Which leads me to question why Livan Hernandez is being considered a positive to the Twins rotation. This guy is pure meat. He has given up 173 hits in a 120 innings. His ERA is sitting at a chunky 5.44, with an ERA+ of 73 (100 is average).
Ahhh, it is because he is 9-6. The dreaded won/loss record blinding the truth as usual. Nothing like good run support and pure luck.
Liriano is catching fire now, and they are gong to keep a piece of garbage in their rotation.
I wouldn't be too keen on Glen Perkins either.
The dreaded won/loss record as an indicator of goodness is at work here, as is the over valuing of a middle man.
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Maybe that is why? Maybe they hope it will continue?
SD
Grant Fuhr ended up in the Hall of Fame playing goal like that! He once said that his goal was to always give up one less goal than his team scored. He felt if he did that, he'd have a great career. He did and he did!
Counting on luck is not exactly a good formula for success.
That whole Jack Morris thing is the biggest myth in the history of sports. He did not pitch to the score, nor is he capable of doing so. If he were capable of pitching to the score, then if he was on a team that averaged one run a game, then his ERA would be zero. The myth you hear just isn't accurate information.
What was actually more typical in those high scoring games was...
Jack Morris being staked with a lead, Jack Morris coughing up that lead, and then Lance Parrish and company bailing him out with more runs so 'he' can get a win.
All of his starts were studied with the aspect of what the score was, and how he pitched. He simply did not do what the myth says he did.
In all the years I watched Morris, it always seemed that if he ahd a big lead, he let the opponents hit the ball. When it was a tight game, he seemed to buckle down. What I'd like to see is his K/IP ratio with a 2 run or less lead and with a lead of 3 runs or more.
"What we now know is that instead of "pitching to the score," as his supporters claim he did, Morris actually put his team behind in 344 of his 527 career starts."
"Morris made 527 starts, and in 235 of them, 44.6%, he gave up the first run of the game. He had 41 career starts in which he allowed no runs, so unless he was perfect that day Morris was as likely as not to put the Tigers behind."
In innings where Jack Morris was pitching up one run, down one run, or tied, he gave up 4.15 runs per nine innings.
If he truly let the guys hit the balls in blow outs, I would expect his runs allowed to be much higher than 4.07, and certainly much higher than what it was in close games.
What you probably remember is the times where Morris was staked with a 2-0 lead, then turned it into 2-2, then 4-2 into 4-4, before leaving with a 5-4 lead. You must have left that game thinking "wow" this guy pitches to the score. The only thing you never figured was that some poor soul like a Dave Stieb didn't have the benefit of blowing that early two run lead, only to have a great offense bail him out and get a 'win.'
Dave Stieb did not get as many 'wins' as Jack Morris, but he was by far a better pitcher at their primes. He jsut didn't have the benefit of having as good as teammates making him look better.
And I highly doubt that Dave Stieb did not care any more or less about his ERA than Jack Morris. I am quite sure he wanted his team to win the game just as much. The only difference was that Morris had great hitters making him look better than he was....well, and the other difference is that Stieb was a better pitcher despite not 'winning' as many games.
Baseball, the results you may not like. They may not jive with your beliefs, and maybe that hurts. But if there is one thing that can be counted on as unreliable, that is the 'feeling' one gets on what they perceived the situation to be, and how the 'felt' why something occured. Or, just going by memory instead of what really happened.
The bottom line is that he got lots of wins because he was fortunate to have a great offense behind him, and he pitched a lot of innings. The first part(run support) is of no credit to him, yet he is getting credit in the Win category. Pitching a lof of innings is what makes him a very good pitcher, instead of just average.
We can already see above that Morris did not pitch to the score any more than the average guy, and that he did not let an inordinate amount of runs in during blowouts, thus plumping his ERA to a non Hall of Fame level.
A very elementary way of looking at it is this...
How can Jack Morris have an ERA of 3.94 in 1988, pitch 235 innings, and go 15-13?
How can Jack Morris have an ERA of 4.04 in 1992, pitch 240 innings, and go 21-6?
Did Jack Morris forget how to pitch to the score in 1988, only to remember four years later?
Was he a worse pitcher in 1988? I would say not, being that he had basically the same ERA and IP.
Or, is it because in 1988 his run support was 4.11 runs.
....................and in 1992 his run support was 5.66 runs!
This is really very simple.
<< <i>Jack Morris made a career out of pitching like that... When he needed to throw a two-hit shutout to win 1-0, he did. When he gave up 13 hits and 6 runs it was because his team scored 7 runs...
Grant Fuhr ended up in the Hall of Fame playing goal like that! He once said that his goal was to always give up one less goal than his team scored. He felt if he did that, he'd have a great career. He did and he did! >>
Someone else is drinking the Jack Morris Kool Aid. I did not know anyone still believed that BS.
Andy Sonnanstine, the #4 pitcher for the Rays, is 10-4 while having a 4.58 ERA and a WHIP of 1.3. Not bad numbers, but not numbers that normally lead to a 10-4 record. On the other hand, the top 3 of the rotation have very impressive ERA's and WHIPs, yet have somewhat mediocre W-L records. Scott Kazmir is 7-5 yet has an ERA of 3.0 and a WHIP around 1.1, I think. James Shields is 7-6 with a 3.8 ERA and a 1.1 WHIP and Matt Garza is 7-5 with a 3.9 ERA and a 1.2 WHIP.
Minnesota has shown a propensity in the past to make great personnel decisions...I don't think that they honestly think Livan is a better pitcher than Lirano.
It is ironic that Sonnanstine was mentioned, with David Price waiting in the wings over there. Though Sonnanstine has been better than Meat Hernandez.
<< <i>
It is ironic that Sonnanstine was mentioned, with David Price waiting in the wings over there. Though Sonnanstine has been better than Meat Hernandez. >>
If the Rays are in contention in September, I can almost guarantee Price will be up at one point. The guy's ridiculous! Here are his Minor league starts, where he is currently and somehow still in AA.
8-0, 1.63 ERA, 60.2 IP, 59 Ks, 17 BB, .215 BAA.
Yes, I know that the minor leagues are a bit different from the majors but those stats are the type worth hyping up.
In his 9 wins he has given up more than 3 earned runs once. He beat Kansas City 6-4 and pitched 7 innings giving up all 4 earned runs. There are no other "cheap" wins among his total.
His numbers are skewed because in 4 of his starts covering 14 innings he gave up 27 earned runs. Basically when he has lost he has been awful.
Where have you been?
-Skinpinch here.
It looks like Livan has had some disastor starts. That is a different topic, and is worth a discussion.
Livan's four terrible starts could be skewing things a bit. But, I am guessing every pitcher would like to have their four worst starts overlooked when they are being evaluated for a job.
I certainly agree that taking most pitchers worst starts out would certainly make every pitcher look great.
With Hernandez, his record is not really that misleading. In his 9 wins his earned run average is 2.29. In his 6 losses his earned run average is 10.90. When he pitches well he wins when he pitches poorly he loses or gets a no-decision.
I would not be so quick to take him out of the rotation. He does not walk anybody and has a decent ground ball to flyball ratio. I am inclined to think his earned run average and hits allowed per nine innings will get better in the second half.
Oh and I do not think that any MLB team wants the ages of their starting pitchers to be 27, 26, 25, 24, and 24. That and the fact that out of Baker, Blackburn, Liriano, Slowey, and Perkins only Baker has started more than 25 games, he has started around 50. Not a lot of experience there.
If there is one thing that the Twins do well, it is develop pitchers.
Aro there you go again, facts are a good thing.
Steve
Look at Livan's game log. The first column is IP, the second is ER.
4.3....6
6.......3
7.......4
7.......1
7.......1
3.......7
4.......7
6.......5
6.......6
6.......5
7.3....3
6.......3
9.......1
7.......1
2.7.....7
6........4
6........3
7........0
7........4
7........2
The league ERA is 4.12.
Livan has a total of SIX games where he pitched much better than the league ERA, thus giving his team a good chance to win.
7......1
7......1
9......1
7......1
7......0
7......2
Livan has a total of SEVEN outings where he has given up runs at a rate well below the league average ERA, thus what should be considered starts where he should be given a loss. These are flat out disastor starts! Being that he has only six losses, he was lucky in that he should have seven just based on these following starts.....
2.7....7
6......5
6.......6
6......5
4......7
3......7
4.6....6
He should really be 6-7 based on his good starts, and his horrible starts.
The rest of his starts are...
6...3
7...4
7.3..3
6....3
6.....4
6....3
In five of these games his ERA for the game was below league average. Only good luck would get a win when you pitch below average.
Where Livan was lucky in his won/loss record is that every one of his best starts the team got enough runs to credit him with a win. That is good fortune, as he didn't endure a single game where he pitched seven scorelss innings, only to have his team shutout. Roger Clemens endured that one year with Houston, and so have others.
Where he was also lucky is that he only received six losses, despite pitching horribly in seven games. Obviously the team scored plenty of runs preventing him from enduring a loss that he truly deserved.
Then we have the rest of his starts where his ERA was 4.73, which is worse than average. I would expect a 2-4 record out of that.
So, a breakdown of each of his games shows that he pitched well enough to have an 8-11 record, which is fairly indicitive of what his 5.44 ERA is showing.
So his current 9-6 W/L record is cleary NOT indicitive of how well he has pitched, and he certainly was bailed out of receiving some well deserved losses....as well as being fortunate that his team never got shut down when he pitched well.
He pitched good enough to be 8-11. He is quite lucky to be sitting at 9-6. Won/loss record=poor indicator as usual!
Winpitcher, you are right...facts are a good thing.
Oh, and Sabathia has 13 starts that are considered good enough for wins, compared to Livan's seven. So why is he only 6-8, and Livan 9-6?
Pure luck! Good run support, and good run support timing for Hernandez!
As outlined above, L. Hernandez's won/loss record is a mirage. It is not indicitive of his value(or lack of), and finally.....
It is time to put Won/Loss record as a good measurement of a pitcher to bed forever.
It makes no sense at all to judge a player based on things that are out of his control.
Bill James in the Book "The Mind of Bill James" wrote a great little article about won-lost record versus runs allowed rates. He used to believe that runs allowed rates were meaningful and won-lost record were meaningless. He said he has since come to understand differently and that the degree of trust he puts in runs allowed rates is much higher than won-lost records but not at a 100-0 number but rather at a 85-15 difference.
In the case of Hernandez the era is a valuable resource but I am not going to give 0 weight to his won-lost record. His won-lost record is a small indicator that he has pitched better than his earned run average - at least in my mind.
Livan has zero cheap wins, but he also has Zero tough losses. He was also bailed out of losses that he should have endured(no decisions). That is luck.
I think every pitcher wishes they would get credited with a win EVERY good outing they have, like Livan has this year. But they don't. Livan has been fortunate to have been.
Aro,
If you expect him to get wins in his good games, as you are...then you MUST expect him to be credited with a loss in his seven very poor starts. Based on your logic, his record should then sit at 6-7 based on that reasoning. Unless you feel he is special and only HE deserves some sort of royal treatment.
Then in the rest of his below average starts, you must ALSO expect him to be below average W/L wise. What that comes out to is 8-11.
Then how in the earth is 9-6 indicitive of his actual performance?
The ONLY way it is indicitive is if you feel that only HE should get a win every time he pitches good, and only HE should avoid losses in some of the games he pitches horribly. Boy, there are sure a lot of MLB pitchers that wish they should get such treatment. C.C. stand up.
Again, going by the game by game results of his pitching performance, he should be 8-11 had he had decisions in every game. Figuring a few typical no decisions on both some of his good games and mediocore games, his record should be appx 6-9 at the high end of expectations.
All his 9-6 record is saying is that "Livan Hernandez has pitched seven very good games, and he was fortunate enough in that his team scored just enough runs to credit him with a win in every one of those games, AND that the Twins batters scored enough runs in some of his below average performances, thus reducing the number of losses he was credited with."
The typical pitcher with his spread of performances would certainly be under .500. Livan is lucky that he is not. 9-6 is a lie.
Here are Livan Hernandez's best starts, compared to Joe Blanton's best starts. Livan's are on the left, Blanton on the Right. It is IP and ER.
7......1--------7.....1
7......1--------7.....1
9......1--------7.....2
7......1--------7.....2
7......0--------7......2
7......2 -------7......2
Those are extremely similar results for their best starts. Livan had two starts that edged Blanton's, the 9 IP effort, and the seven shutout innings. The best Blanton could do to compare to those two are a pair of 7 IP, 2 ER starts.
Lets look at their middle of the road type starts below.....Livan on the left again.
6.......3---------6.......3
6.......3---------8.......4
6.......3---------5.7....2
6.......4---------6.......4
7.3....3---------6.7....2
7.......4---------7.7....4
-----------------6.7....4
-----------------7.7.....5
-----------------6.7......2
This time it is Blanton edging Livan when start by start is matched up. But then Blanton also has three other starts that Livan cannot match, including a 6 2/3 IP, 2 ER effort.
Lets look at their very bad starts next. Livan on the left again...
2.7....7--------3..........8
6......5---------6.........6
6.......6
6......5---------6..........6
4......7---------4..........7
3......7
4.6....6
Blanton and Livan had four starts each that were comparably very bad. But, Livan had another three bad ones that Blanton did not have. Those other three are up in the middle category above.
Typically in baseball, a very bad start like these has a greater chance of generating a LOSS, as opposed to one of the 7 IP, 2 ER starts at the top has at generating a win. In other words, the badness of a very bad start almost guarantees a loss, while the very good start doesn't guarantee a win to the same degree. It takes a complete game shutout(or 1ER) to outweight the negative impact of a shelling.
Blanton's ERA is 4.96 and 'his' record is 5-12
..Livan's ERA is 5.44 and 'his' record is 9-6
Cleary, when broken down start by start, Livan has not outpitched Blanton in any way you can look at it. Those records are not at all indicitive of their performance. Blanton has been on the bad luck spectrum of luck, and Livan on the good luck side.
Neither one of those guys have any business of having a .500 record. By Livan Hernandez being there, he has benefitted from luck, not performance.
There really isn't any need AT ALL to look at Wins/Losses for a starting pitcher. IP and ER simply tells the players value. Save the Wins/Losses for the TEAMS record! Oh, and Blanton has seven more IP than Livan.
Carlos Silva is 4-11 with a 5.46 ERA, and he also has appx 7 very good starts, a bunch of middle ones, and some very bad ones. His game by game log is remarkably similar to Livan's, yet he is 4-11, and Livan is 9-6.
Steve
Carlos Silva is 4-11 with a 5.46 ERA, and he also has appx 7 very good starts, a bunch of middle ones, and some very bad ones. His game by game log is remarkably similar to Livan's, yet he is 4-11, and Livan is 9-6.
And you can bet your bippy that the managers know this and that is one reason why he chose to keep Livan in the rotation.
All he cares about is wins and he does not care how he gets them.
Steve
I know you are in the Jack Morris camp of believing to the pitching to the score etc..
If all a manger cares about wins, then they should have the better pitcher in there, plain and simple. The better pitcher is judged by his IP, ER, etc... and not his W/L record as one can see how OBVIOUSLY flawed that is.
Basically what you are saying, is that despite pitching as good as Carlos Silva, or Joe Blanton, that Livan Hernandez somehow has this magic 'ability' to earn a 'win'. He is getting those wins credited to him because his teammates are very good, not because he is doing something different than those guys who are not as lucky. His performance is NOT indicivitve of what his record shows.
He hasn't pitched any different than Blanton or Silva, and not NEARLY AS GOOD as Sabathia, yet he is well ahead of them in W/L record. To start giving Livan credit for his won/loss record(despite pitching below average), is foolish. That credit belongs to his teammates!
Judging the ability of a player, based on what his teammates do, makes no sense on every imaginable level.
The issue of whether Livan should come out or not is a little different debate. The above debate really is basically indisputible. It is possible that Minnesota sees Livan turning it around, or that Liriano is not quite there yet. Scouting plays a role there as well.
As for the notion of riding the hot guy, that is another myth. A player who has a great week or where he is playing above his ability, and is considered to be hot, is just as likely to revert to normalcy or worse the following week. Dusty Baker tried that when Neifi Perez was hot for a couple of weeks....only to see him revert to normalcy(and cost games). That happens time and time again.
Thanks.
Too bad I never said any of it.
Steve
Geez ya think the MGR. knows more then us web page bloggers?
Steve
In addition to that, Livan has created a perception (deserved or not) of being a gritty pitcher who is an innings-eater and a guy who is unflappable and able to pull out the tough win. I also do believe that his veteran presence on a staff that is dominated by much younger players than he is a factor in his presence, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
your wisdom speaks volumes.
Managers will indeed go with a veteran, on a hot streak or a gut instinct.
The Twins need someone who has experience out there.
Steve
<< <i>
Managers will indeed a veteran, or a hot strike . >>
Come again
He still hasnt' pitched as many good games this year as Sabathia, and he is outdistancing him in wins.
A manager who will ride the guy getting the most wins is a poor strategy if he is getting them in this fashion! A pitcher who gives up less runs than Hernandez(in similar innings), would have the twins MORE WINS!!!
Grote, the being unflappable and being able to pull out a tough win is much in line with the Jack Morris Hogwash theory. If he were truly unflappable, he wouldn't be gettting shelled so often.
I repeat, a pitcher who gives up less runs than Livan would have the Twins MORE wins. More wins is better, you think?
Joe Blanton is an innings eater too, as is Carlos Silva. They pitched the same as Livan, yet are not as lucky, and have far less wins.
Being an innings eater is the only concrete thing you guys are mentioning.
Being gritty is hogwash, as the gritty aspect comes with getting credit with wins that his teammates have given him, or the losses that his teammates escaped from him.
I bet Scott Baker sure wish he had at least two runs today, as he pitched better than Livan did yesterday, and they lost.
I am not arguing that being a veteran he is a known commodity, as you pretty much know what your going to get...hence giving him more rope. I am now debating that you guys are saying his wins are a product of how he has pitched, DESPITE THE HORRIBLE RUN RATE. As I have shown, his win/loss are a product of good luck, and his poor run rate is not hurting his team as much as guys like Blanton, because Livan's teammates are better and THEY deserve the credit.
Please re-read my post, as you are apparently not accurately capturing my point. I never said that Hernandez is a better pitcher than any of the others you mentioned (nor did I ever mention Jack Morris, for that matter, either). In fact, one could argue that I am actually implying otherwise. (My exact sentence was: Livan has created a perception (deserved or not) of being a gritty pitcher who is an innings-eater and a guy who is unflappable and able to pull out the tough win. I also do believe that his veteran presence on a staff that is dominated by much younger players than he is a factor in his presence, too.)
However, I am presenting a point that may very well explain why Gardenhire has continued to ride Hernandez and keep him in the rotation THIS SEASON. That is, after all, the fact of the matter, so why not try to read the reasoning behind it? No, the strategy of riding "the hot hand" may not be a successful long-term approach, but fact of the matter right now, behind all your numbers and equations and analyses, is that Hernandez has 10 wins, and wins are what a manager is looking at, regardless of their basis or whether the beneficiary (in this case Hernandez) deserved them or not. His veteran presence on a very young starting staff, and the fact that he is an innings-eater, are also very significant in Gardenhire's thinking, too, I'm sure. By all accounts, Gardenhire has been a very competent and very successful manager over the years, so if I'm a Twins fan, I'd have no problem with his reasoning with regard to this issue. Or myabe you ought to send a certified letter to the Minnesota front office to demonstrate as extensively as you do why you should be the next head of baseball operations in Minnesota, LOL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Grote,
That is an extremely faulty and losing strategy, no matter who employs it. If there is a better player who could get the team MORE wins, he shoud be used...not the guy who has luckily been credited with a 'winning' record despite being a below average pitcher.
Grote, rest assured, I could do a better job at personnel decisions than MANY front office guys currently employed. Time and time again they make cardinal errors. Many of them are quite bad...especially the ones that live by the typical myth philosophies.
After college, I had the competitive level coaching chance, but I chose a different path. I chose the path that had a guaranteed career...and went on to have a large family.
One has to get lucky in the coaching/front office field and hope an opportunity falls your way...or that you know somebody well. I am quite fine where I am at, and I wouldn't even trade it RIGHT NOW for a GM opportunity. I wouldn't want to be away from my family that much.
I may be little known publicly, and that is fine...and I have had a few words with some GM's before.
Strategy wise....
I once out maneuvered Heimlich
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am sometimes speechless by some things mangers say or do. I am still having a tough time trying to figure out how Dusty Baker is a MLB manager. It is almost as if he goes out of his way to ensure he uses the strategy or players that give him the lowest possible chance to win. He is so very lucky that he had Barry Bonds(who was so far better than everybody else), that he gave Baker some credence. I don't take their word as gospel for anything they do.
As for the Twins. They are a good ball club. I was on the Baker and Slowey train all year. They both got injured, and they are hidden talents, well out of the public mind.
I would hate to see the Twins fans have to lose the division by two games, because Livan Hernandez continues his one good start, one below average start, and one horrible start routine...and the team scores runs for Baker instead. All this when they have a guy in the minors who really looks like he is ready to be a 3.80 ish ERA type of guy or better.
Same for Perkins and Blackburn. Either one of those guys could make a right turn to the I got Shelled highway. Why waste Liriano in the minors or bullpen when the odds are good that one of those three guys are going to lose the division for the Twins.
I may be wrong if Liriano doesn't quite have enough velocity, or enough movement at the moment...but the TWins keep saying there is no room in the rotation for him because the rotation is doing so good, not because he isn't ready. Good luck to the Twins on that call. If the owner doesn't have a hand in this because of the arbitration, and the Twins lose the division while sticking with one of those three, I would say it is grounds for a firing for somebody in charge there.
I had both Baker and Slowey on my fantasy baseball team, but regrettably dropped Baker when he went on the DL earlier this year. Both pitchers are far better options than Hernandez when it comes to stats, even with their lower number of wins, as they handily beat Hernandez in all other significant categories. I've had Blackburn for a while now, too. Minnesota certainly has its share of good young talent at the SP position. Perkins has quietly had an impressive last couple of months, as well.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Funny, I picked Baker up when was hurt...and had to use a reserve spot for a while for him...but he has been worth it! I had him last year too. He is putting it together, and his k/bb ratio is translating finally!
I am going to keep an eye on the TWins rotation situation for a while. This should be interesting.
lol
Steve
Take the following two pitchers both who pitched in the same season for Colorado:
Both pitchers made 30 starts
Pitcher A
15-9 record 4.73 earned run average
Pitcher B
6-12 record 4.23 earned run average
By ignoring the won-lost record and strictly focusing on runs allowed Pitcher B is superior. But when it is discovered that Pitcher A made 21 of his 30 starts in Coors and Pitcher B made only 10 of his 30 at Coors it becomes apparent that Pitcher A is better and the won-loss record could help explain that in a quick look.
As I mentioned earlier I do not put a lot of value in a won-loss record but I do give it some weight.
Even in the example you show, there is still no need for W/L. In this case the park factor adjustment on runs allowed would be the way to go.
I do want to remind everyone that that their criteria for 'good' is giving up five runs in eight innings, as he did tonight, as has been his rate all year.
It is too bad for Twins fans that management is using the criteria of Won/Loss record as a determination of what constitutes good.
One of the young guys got roughed up the other day too.
Twins management, keep Scott Baker in the rotation, probably Slowey too. Take EVERYONE else, throw their names in a hat, and then pick one of them to lose their job to Liriano. At worst, Liriano does as bad as them(especially Meat Hernandez). Realistically, he does better than all three of them easily.
Steve
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That is entirely possible. That is also entirely dumb on their part if that is their reason. Dumb if they want to win, and dumb if they want to make even MORE money! They have to pay him no matter if he pitches or not. Might as well pitch the better guy.
Liriano has been lights out his last several starts and his hitting 93 on the gun. He is still going to pitch Sunday in the minors.
Grote,
The only safe pitcher currently in that starting five is Scott Baker. Liriano really should be pitching instead of any of the other four. One can take their pick if they choose. Slowey is the best of the other four, and has the most future potential, so I would keep him in for those reasons.
If they lose this thing by a couple of games, Gradenhire and his warped sense of what 'pitching good' constitutes; and the GM should be fired...plain and simple.
All they have to lose by pitching Liriano is that he pitches as poorly as Livan Hernandez has pitched all year.