2008 Reverse of 2007 ASE: FOIA Request Information **UPDATED MINT RESPONSE - AUGUST 2ND**
lope208
Posts: 1,960 ✭
**AUGUST 2, 2008 UPDATE** Below...
This information has been posted in the giant John Nanney Discovery thread already.
I post it here as a courtesy for those who have not kept up on that thread but still
have interest in this coin.
FIRST, here is the request I filed with the Disclosure Officer for the Mint. The wording
is a little strange in spots because of the rules you have to follow when submitting. Also, it
was my first time filing one of these.
SECOND, here is the initial response I've received from the Mint in early July.
THIRD, here is the letter that I just received from the Mint. It is dated July 15th.
NEW CORRESPONDANCE FROM THE MINT
This doesn't tell us too much and they failed to answer half of my inquiry. I will be sending them a response
letter to this.
Special thanks to all 40 members that contributed to the costs of this FOIA request!!!
This information has been posted in the giant John Nanney Discovery thread already.
I post it here as a courtesy for those who have not kept up on that thread but still
have interest in this coin.
FIRST, here is the request I filed with the Disclosure Officer for the Mint. The wording
is a little strange in spots because of the rules you have to follow when submitting. Also, it
was my first time filing one of these.
SECOND, here is the initial response I've received from the Mint in early July.
THIRD, here is the letter that I just received from the Mint. It is dated July 15th.
NEW CORRESPONDANCE FROM THE MINT
This doesn't tell us too much and they failed to answer half of my inquiry. I will be sending them a response
letter to this.
Special thanks to all 40 members that contributed to the costs of this FOIA request!!!
Successful BST transactions:
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0
Comments
Isn't the 47k number, all they have to disclose?
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>way back in the monster thread.. i suggested that someone file an FOIA request, and Lope picked up the ball and ran with it.. i read the gubmint's rules on how to file one and the dozen or so ways they could weasel out of giving a real answer.. i may still do it.. i think more of us should.. it'd have more of an impact if the Mint got more than one.. the rules on doing it are Google-able.. these days, what isn't?..
Harv >>
That's why we love our Harv!!!!
Best estimates of those produced will not significantly change........45,000 +/- a few thousand.
I predict they will say they made no attempt to recover any examples.
All examples were processed through usual channels and either have been shipped or remain in inventory.
IMO all of those who assign more sinister motives and actions by the mint employees have never dealt with goverment workers.
If they haven't been ordered to stop shipment or been ordered to search out examples then they won't bother.
From their point of view it was a design change not an 'error'.
<< <i>I expect the following.......
From their point of view it was a design change not an 'error'. >>
Finally & officially a variety!
Thanks Lope! Hat's off to you!
<< <i>Can we make this thread the new John Nanney thread????
I was going to call it "The John Nanney Spinoff Thread"
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<< <i>Can we make this thread the new John Nanney thread????
Count me IN!
The name is LEE!
I'm telling you, stock up on ammo and guns because someday you will be jailed for asking the same question!
<< <i>I expect the following.......
Best estimates of those produced will not significantly change........45,000 +/- a few thousand.
I predict they will say they made no attempt to recover any examples.
All examples were processed through usual channels and either have been shipped or remain in inventory.
IMO all of those who assign more sinister motives and actions by the mint employees have never dealt with goverment workers.
If they haven't been ordered to stop shipment or been ordered to search out examples then they won't bother.
From their point of view it was a design change not an 'error'. >>
I agree with the above.
And, while it would be nice to know, and it would certainly be helpful to those working a PROFIT on these, I think it is a shame to waste government time/resources/money on chasing bits and pieces like this down. Especially if more people do it. I hope they charge a cost recovery fee for these types of things.
No wonder our government is so bloated and good workers are hard to find. If I had to put up with this stuff at my job, and wasn't highly compensated, I would quit and go elsewhere as well.
Now, if this was something that involved people dying or safety, I would be all for it, but, and I know this is blasphemy to many here, I consider this still a hobby....as such, I am willing to enjoy it and put up with a bit.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
You will never know how many of these are out there. People have these things hoarded in their closets
some people probably don't even know about it. They ordered on subscription and put them away.
If I had 20 of them no one would know about it. I dang sure wouldn't have sold any if I thought there was
a chance it could be worth thousands. There is nothing worse than a Ebay seller telling me they are selling
a coin that is going to be worth thousands one day for 3 to 5 hundred dollars.
I send everyone I find a message telling them how careless they are as an investor if they are willing to lose
hundreds perhaps thousands selling early...
I wish you all the best. But you will only know what they want you to know...
<< <i>I hope some jackass releases a stupid number like 75,000 to 100,000. That will teach you to waste
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
A disappointing comment even with the smiley face.
He also said he would pay reasonable fees incurred to get the information.
<< <i>the FOIA act exists for a reason.. it allows the common man a way to question the actions of his gubmint.. after all, our tax DollErs pay their salaries.. they work for US and should be accountable to US.. i don't think this filing is a "Trivial Pursuit" at all.. privately-held companies are answerable to their stockholders.. you can't file a FOIA request with a private company.. if anyone else thinks this is somehow abusing the system, that's your right.. true.. the number of these coins made and the number released are not going to involve masses of people dying or starving.. these boreds aren't for political discussions so i won't get into the gumint's response to Katrina, for example.. but i don't see one
Harv >>
Harv, I've seen good points and posts from you before, but this issue has you all wrapped around an axle.
btw...it's "dollars" and "government" and "boards"
Yes, I do think it is trivial. Know what else? I also "pay for their salaries" and I would rather them do something productive than cater to a bunch of hobbyists.
I would also rather our elected officials do something about actual social issues than try to come up with a new coin design (national parks, politically correct dollar coins, etc).
Yes, there are many collectors interested. If it was readily available data, I would be all for it. But to encourage multiple people to file FOIA requests is just being wasteful, imho.
For the record, I would like to see an exact number, or pretty close to one, but I would forego that if I knew it took a lot of time/resources.
Not trying to change your mind, because, reading the threads, you are very excited about these, hope to make millions of dollars off of them, and are pretty set in your view. That's cool.
For my part, I like them but don't think they are god's gift. Just another mint gift to flipping
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope some jackass releases a stupid number like 75,000 to 100,000. That will teach you to waste
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
A disappointing comment even with the smiley face.
He also said he would pay reasonable fees incurred to get the information. >>
Fee's or not they already released a number..What difference does it make??
Do you REALLY want the exact number? What if it IS higher than previously stated and they TANK in price???
You won't be so happy then will you?????
Why can't you be happy with the number stated and move on?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope some jackass releases a stupid number like 75,000 to 100,000. That will teach you to waste
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
A disappointing comment even with the smiley face.
He also said he would pay reasonable fees incurred to get the information. >>
Fee's or not they already released a number..What difference does it make??
Do you REALLY want the exact number? What if it IS higher than previously stated and they TANK in price???
You won't be so happy then will you?????
Why can't you be happy with the number stated and move on?
Cinman, your post wasn't directed at me but I think I can answer as to why some folks can't be happy with the number stated:
1) They are anal about needing to know everything
2) It makes them feel good to push and push
3) They want to keep pumping the prices up and up....it isn't about collecting but rather flipping/"investing"
I don't think the OP really hits the above, but some folks sure do
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Cinman, your post wasn't directed at me but I think I can answer as to why some folks can't be happy with the number stated: >>
<< <i>1) They are anal about needing to know everything >>
<< <i>) It makes them feel good to push and push >>
<< <i>) They want to keep pumping the prices up and up....it isn't about collecting but rather flipping/"investing" >>
<< <i>I don't think the OP really hits the above, but some folks sure do >>
That was the answer I was looking for..Thank you
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope some jackass releases a stupid number like 75,000 to 100,000. That will teach you to waste
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
A disappointing comment even with the smiley face.
He also said he would pay reasonable fees incurred to get the information. >>
Fee's or not they already released a number..What difference does it make??
Do you REALLY want the exact number? What if it IS higher than previously stated and they TANK in price???
You won't be so happy then will you?????
Why can't you be happy with the number stated and move on?
I really don't care what the number is, but apparently you do because you want a Jackass to deliver a different figure from what has been announced as estimated.
Perhaps, you need to move on.
Personally, the numbers I don't like to have shoved down my throat are the bogus figures we receive from the government pertaining to all things economic.
It would be refreshing to see an honest number come from a government agency for a change, and this appears to me to be one that they could come through on in that regard.
Bye now.....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope some jackass releases a stupid number like 75,000 to 100,000. That will teach you to waste
some poor Goverment workers time trying to reap a profit from a mistake..
A disappointing comment even with the smiley face.
He also said he would pay reasonable fees incurred to get the information. >>
Fee's or not they already released a number..What difference does it make??
Do you REALLY want the exact number? What if it IS higher than previously stated and they TANK in price???
You won't be so happy then will you?????
Why can't you be happy with the number stated and move on?
I really don't care what the number is, but apparently you do because you want a Jackass to deliver a different figure from what has been announced as estimated.
Perhaps, you need to move on.
Personally, the numbers I don't like to have shoved down my throat are the bogus figures we receive from the government pertaining to all things economic.
It would be refreshing to see an honest number come from a government agency for a change, and this appears to me to be one that they could come through on in that regard.
Bye now..... >>
I could really careless as well I am just padding my post count to get to 1000 for the big giveway...
I don't own these nor will I so Carry on my wayward son There'll be peace when you are done Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more....
We all collect coins for a variety of reasons but it would be an error not to enjoy what an impact this coin has had and I hope that it will continue to have an impact. If nothing else it has been entertaining to follow all the related threads on these boards. Lastly, what is wrong with flipping, isn't that what buying and seling is all about? Buy low sell high? Isn't that what we all do? I don't plan on owning my collection forever. I want to help my kids through college and I plan on retireing one day... my coin collection is going to help with that. Who invests without the expectation that the investment will appreciate? Agree or disagree it really dosen't matter, in the end only time will tell if these coins were a good investment or not.
Now IF they will only answer in a somewhat believable manner.......and in this century
<< <i>
Cinman, your post wasn't directed at me but I think I can answer as to why some folks can't be happy with the number stated:
1) They are anal about needing to know everything
2) It makes them feel good to push and push
3) They want to keep pumping the prices up and up....it isn't about collecting but rather flipping/"investing"
I don't think the OP really hits the above, but some folks sure do
Thanks for the disclaimer at the end of your statement Bochiman
As I've said, I just did this because it was an available path to try and get information. If they come back with a higher number,
so be it. With 15,000+ graded already, I wouldn't be shocked either way. But it would be nice to know, since no one here really believes the 47K.
Also, as for WASTING the Government's time on this...I disagree. I addressed the letter to the "DISCLOSURE OFFICER OF THE US MINT".
That person's PRIMARY job is to respond to FOIA requests. What other requests do you think they are getting right now? I apologize
if they had to actually do something before their July 4th holiday. That letter was a stock letter anyway.
As for the cost, the FOIA requester (in this case ME) has to arrange or agree to pay any extra costs associated with duplication, or researching
the records, etc. I agreed to do that.
While I agree the Government is bloated with useless positions and employees, the FOIA is not one of them IMHO.
Lope
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I'm actually surprised that a relative newcomer had the balls to actually initiate it though.
As for the US Mint taking time out to respond to such requests, they've been doing it for years as indicated by the detailed correspondence in Appendix A of the Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars.
They do have a "public relations" office which gets paid whether they respond to questions or not so I don;t think this really is a waste of taxpayer money. Wasteful spending on the US Governments part would better be addressed by lobbying Congress to get rid of the paper dollar instead of tying up countless millions on coins that never get used.
The name is LEE!
What if the US Mint decided to mint 10 gold coins for Mr. Moys wife because he wanted to have something special for her. Do you think you should have the right to now about that? How about if the US Mint mistakenly sent out 1000 platinum 1oz coins instead of 1000 1oz silver coins, would you want to be able to find out if that is true or not? The US Mint that we are talking about here is making some serious profit on their products, don't be a baby and complain about the money it might cost to get an answer on this matter.
If you really think for a second that the mint doesn't already have (and had before his request) all the information Lope asked for then you are foolish.
If you want to complain about government waste and abuse, complain about something that is significant. Maybe you could actually do something with all your free time instead of typing stupid retorts all day, call your congressman.
<< <i>
Harv, I've seen good points and posts from you before, but this issue has you all wrapped around an axle.
btw...it's "dollars" and "government" and "boards"
my misspellings are done on porpoise, Professor.. people who know me know why..
<< <i>
Yes, I do think it is trivial. Know what else? I also "pay for their salaries" and I would rather them do something productive than cater to a bunch of hobbyists.
I would also rather our elected officials do something about actual social issues than try to come up with a new coin design (national parks, politically correct dollar coins, etc).
>>
And what, exactly, would you propose the US Mint do about "actual social issues"?.. Oh, I supposed they could hand out free Gold to people living in poverty, Seniors who have to choose between paying for their prescriptions or the rent..
The last time I checked, they were resonsible for making our country's circulating coinage, and if all that stuff they sell, non-circulating coinage, isn't "catering to hobbyists" then perhaps in your infinite wisdom, you'd tell me exactly why they make Proof sets, Mint sets, Commemoratives, even SPOONS.. what "actual social issues" do those products solve?.. and enlighten me as to exactly which US Mint officials from Moy on down to the guys in the warehouse are elected officials?.. NONE of them were elected by anyone, unless I missed something on the last 100 election ballots I filled out.. or are you speaking of the Congresscritters who push through bills for new coinage?.. if that's the case, and you don't like their choices, (and I disagree with a LOT of them.. ) .. then vote'em out of office, and vote in others who cater to whatever it is you think they should be doing..
<< <i>
Not trying to change your mind, because, reading the threads, you are very excited about these, hope to make millions of dollars off of them, and are pretty set in your view. That's cool.
>>
Hmm.. if i can find someone who'll give me $250,000.00 each for the ones I'm holding, which the last time, and every time I've counted them, are exactly four (I keep counting them 2039482039840239481 times a day, but I just can't seem to make them multiply into a few hundred..) .. I'll take that check right to the bank, deposit it, retire, and head for the Mercedes dealer..
<< <i>
For my part, I like them but don't think they are god's gift. Just another mint gift to flipping
Unfortunately, the Mint didn't "gift" me with any.. I, and a lot of others, simply want the facts.. how many were really made, and how many were really shipped. That's all. If we ever get those facts, then the market can determine what they're worth. If the number's carved in stone as 47,000 for all eternity, then so be it. If it takes an FOIA request to get to the truth, then I'm all for it. I don't have much of a dog in this hunt.. just four coins. Others are a lot more fortunate, or got a lot luckier, or spent a lot more..
read through all the replies here and in the original Nanney thread.. if you haven't already.. by my unscientific count, the number of people who are glad Lope filed an FOIA request FAR outnumber those who aren't. glad.
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
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And you don't get the info until you pay first....
I bet you 20 bucks they give you the same number as released..If they didn't it would open a whole new can of worms if
they released a lower number...
Collectors would start questioning every error mintage total out there..
I started posting to this thread to stir the pot alittle.. But seeing the amount they are charging you pisses me off.
I was thinking 50 bucks but $386 is just plain stupid... What do you expect from a Mint that is charging $500 over spot
for a American Eagle Platinum.....
Good luck to you... With this kind of greed I hope you get a total number of less than 30,000
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
My vote is no change. (My hope is under
<< <i>I would file a second FOIR asking how they came up with the figure of $386.36.
Some blowhard government worker's pay for 1 day..don't forget this asswipe worker will get 75 % of final year's pay as his yearly pension
Well said, Jesse!
You know, many posts and threads on this Forum have ended with.."We should file a FOIA on this"...
Yours truly has written it many times, but know one has had the gumption to call the Mint's a$$ on an issue like this.
IMHO, it will be very difficult for the US Mint to justify witholding of the numbers based on the "Exemption 4 of the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(4)" after a Mint Spokesman stated the ballpark "47,000" units.
The Mint seems to have made a reasonable guesstimate of what got made, and that is a lot more cooperative than most previous Mint administrations would have done. I think they are being unfairly criticized in this particular case.
TD
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Keep in mind that the information requested may not exist. If you were to ask the Mint how many off-center cents were struck in 2007, and what percentage of them escaped the Mint, they would have no idea because they don't keep records like that.
The Mint seems to have made a reasonable guesstimate of what got made, and that is a lot more cooperative than most previous Mint administrations would have done. I think they are being unfairly criticized in this particular case.
TD >>
Tom, wouldn't the US Mints response to a FOIA Request be in the form of redacted documentation pertaining to the request?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Lope, please post how much you now need to cover the balance at the US Mint FOIA you filed.
>>
Coinboy-
I believe we're about $100 short, but I am waiting on a few envelopes that people have sent that should arrive Mon or Tues.
There's also an extremely gracious board member that has offered to pay the balance!
FWIW, with the FAST response of so many board members (35+!) I was able to get the check out in the mail on Saturday.
So it's only a matter of days now before the Mint ships all those redacted records
I still don't really understand the pessimism from some surrounding the request. Everyone understands that there's a chance no
new information is gained by this, BUT, there's also no good reason not to ask IMO.
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<< <i>Careful Tom, mob mentality and all........you know the government is responsible for everything in the world and knows all....so, to suggest that there may be nothing to be gained from this, well.......
Besides, we are living in "1984"!
Ren
<< <i>
<< <i>Lope, please post how much you now need to cover the balance at the US Mint FOIA you filed.
>>
Coinboy-
I believe we're about $100 short, but I am waiting on a few envelopes that people have sent that should arrive Mon or Tues.
There's also an extremely gracious board member that has offered to pay the balance!
FWIW, with the FAST response of so many board members (35+!) I was able to get the check out in the mail on Saturday.
So it's only a matter of days now before the Mint ships all those redacted records
I still don't really understand the pessimism from some surrounding the request. Everyone understands that there's a chance no
new information is gained by this, BUT, there's also no good reason not to ask IMO. >>
I think the pessimism is directed at the "attention" this coin has received and the "over exuberance" that some have displayed with regard to this particular coin. The speculation on what prices it will hit before December or perhaps what it will cost in 5 or 10 years gets on some folks nerves simply because they've seen it before. Heck I've seen it before!
However, the FOIA request, I think is spot on. Hopefully, you'll receive the information in official documentation so that all the questions regarding "mintages" and "whats out there" can be put to rest.
As for it being a rediculous waste of the US Mints time, thats just poopy because folks have been communicating with the US Mint way before the Freedom of Information Act ever existed. Folks used to mail directly to the Director of the Mint!
What I'm hoping, is that you dont receive a package of 100 or more pages that will be difficult to share with everybody although I suspect that you might. I also suspect that you may receive information that begs for another "more specific" FOIA request. Wouldn't that be the poops?
The name is LEE!