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Is there an issue with gold coins from the SS Central America turning cloudy?

LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I am not an expert on shipwreck coins, nor do I have an interest in them. However, I was reading the description of a particular shipwreck double eagle from the SS Central America, and it was described, in part, as follows:

..."Unlike many examples of this date, this piece is not turning cloudy and it is as bright and vibrant as the day it was struck. The color is a very attractive light gold with some splashes of rose on the reverse." ...


Does anyone know if there are any issues with these shipwreck coins turning cloudy? Is this a natural occurance, or is it something that happens when they are in holders?
Always took candy from strangers
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Never want to be like papa
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--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)

Comments

  • DoctorPaperDoctorPaper Posts: 616 ✭✭✭
    I've got one, and there's been no change. It's a 62:
    image
    Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....
  • golfer72golfer72 Posts: 3,588
    I guess they were not cleaned too well then. wink wink
  • JSssonJSsson Posts: 891 ✭
    Perhaps the cloudiness that is forming on the coins is the result of the conservation/ cleaning work that was performed when the coins were recovered from the ocean floor. The coins were exposed to salt water for a long time, so maybe that was a factor.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am not sure about turning cloudy, but I have seen quite a few that have turned (darkened unattractively) in the holders. I understand that PCGS will reconserve these, when requested.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sure the cloudiness is market acceptable.image
    All glory is fleeting.
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    No idea but there are about 250 $20's in the Heritage auction archives you can look at here.
  • CoinHuskerCoinHusker Posts: 5,033 ✭✭✭
    You might need some goggles to see through that shipwreck effect. image
    Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I guess they were not cleaned too well then. wink wink >>



    What do you mean by "wink wink"?
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
    See the copper spotting on the reverse? While it is not that bad (yet?) on this coin it is worse on other SSCA $20's.

    This is plaguing a number of the conserved 1857-S SSCA $20's.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • oldcameoproofsguyoldcameoproofsguy Posts: 3,174 ✭
    Why don't the guys who bring these up from the ocean leave some of them with the dank ocean patina? That's what I'd rather have.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    Probably residue from what ever torture NCS does to them.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Probably residue from what ever torture NCS does to them. >>



    NCS did not conserve the SSCA shipwreck coins.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • carzzycarzzy Posts: 94
    Question: If I had a gold coin from the SS Central America (slabbed by PCGS) cracked it out and resubmitted it to them raw, would PCGS grade it or BB it for being cleaned?
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Question: If I had a gold coin from the SS Central America (slabbed by PCGS) cracked it out and resubmitted it to them raw, would PCGS grade it or BB it for being cleaned? >>



    My best guess is that PCGS would recognize it as an ex-SSCA coin and slab it. However, any coin cracked out of a PCGS holder runs the risk of a no-grade next time around for whatever reason.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,797 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why don't the guys who bring these up from the ocean leave some of them with the dank ocean patina? That's what I'd rather have. >>



    Without conservation, most collectors wouldn't want them and the TPG's wouldn't slab them because of enviornmental issues.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • mrcommemmrcommem Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a MS64. I have noticed no cloudiness, no spots, no change.

    image
    Mr Commem
    Overland Trail Collection Showcase
    Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭

    I am happy when they label the coins properly that way collectors go into the
    purchase with eyes wide open.

    It is the normally graded ones that could have an issue down the road and
    the collector is left wondering why there coin is cloudy or darker with no hint
    to the reason why.

  • mrcommemmrcommem Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anytime you send in a coin to be reholdered or regraded, photographed, when the coin has to removed from the holder you accept the risk that it might be damaged or could changed color in a new holder. I have a number of green label PCGS coins. early copper, that would probably upgrade to MS65. They are red and red-brown and seem stable as I have had them for 10 years now. I will upgrade them when I get ready to sell them.
    Mr Commem
    Overland Trail Collection Showcase
    Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the big deal.......all coins are conserved. The only difference with the SSCA is that we have documentary evidence to prove it.
    Newman Numismatic Portal, www.NewmanPortal.org
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What's the big deal.......all coins are conserved. The only difference with the SSCA is that we have documentary evidence to prove it. >>



    Not only that, they did a terrific job with it. I have been trying to buy the right piece of SSCA gold for my collection for some time.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068 ✭
    An 1857 PCGS MS 65 SS Central America $20 Liberty...but now I find out it is a pop 27 ouch....
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,797 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>An 1857 PCGS MS 65 SS Central America $20 Liberty...but now I find out it is a pop 27 ouch.... >>



    Do you mean 1857-S?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dunno...I think I might dispute the "terrific job" they did if the coins are now all showing varying degrees of reaction to the chemical bath they took. I am very concerned about the long term effects of "conserved" items in general. Frankly with few exceptions I'm in the "leave gold alone" camp. It doesn't change much even when it has spent centuries underwater, so why clean it, unless a barnacle has decided to take up residence on top of it, that is...image

    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • golfer72golfer72 Posts: 3,588
    They cleaned them so they could make money off slabbing them silly!
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I dunno...I think I might dispute the "terrific job" they did if the coins are now all showing varying degrees of reaction to the chemical bath they took. I am very concerned about the long term effects of "conserved" items in general. Frankly with few exceptions I'm in the "leave gold alone" camp. It doesn't change much even when it has spent centuries underwater, so why clean it, unless a barnacle has decided to take up residence on top of it, that is...image >>



    In the condition in which they were recovered, they were not sellable. In fact, there were clumps of coins that were not easily separated.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • HalfsenseHalfsense Posts: 600 ✭✭✭
    The December 2000 auction by Christie's of SS Central America items contained a number of "unconserved" gold and silver pieces including a Kellogg & Humbert ingot with several encrusted Double Eagles "fused" to it as found on the ocean floor. Here are links to selected online pages from the catalog.

    Encrusted SS Central America Double Eagle

    Toned, encrusted Double Eagle from the SS Central America

    Kellogg & Humbert ingot with attached Double Eagles!

    -donn-
    "If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....
  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>See the copper spotting on the reverse? While it is not that bad (yet?) on this coin it is worse on other SSCA $20's.

    This is plaguing a number of the conserved 1857-S SSCA $20's. >>




    image
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,552 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They did an incredible job with the conserving of the SSCA double eagles. The exhibit that was taken to several shows displayed a coin as it was taken from the ocean, then what a similar coin looked like after conservation. How they kept the mint frost on the coins while removing all of the crud is still a mystery to me. To the point of the OP, last year I had an MS-65 1857-S SSCA double eagle, and it looked like it just came from the Mint. I haven't examined many others, but that coin was still super!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • BjornBjorn Posts: 538 ✭✭✭
    Awesome stuff!



    << <i>The December 2000 auction by Christie's of SS Central America items contained a number of "unconserved" gold and silver pieces including a Kellogg & Humbert ingot with several encrusted Double Eagles "fused" to it as found on the ocean floor. Here are links to selected online pages from the catalog.

    Encrusted SS Central America Double Eagle

    Toned, encrusted Double Eagle from the SS Central America

    Kellogg & Humbert ingot with attached Double Eagles!

    -donn- >>

  • FredFFredF Posts: 527 ✭✭✭
    Have read here and elsewhere mixed reviews of shipwreck gold - some saying it's fine, some like the discussion here saying that there are pieces clouding up or otherwise changing because of the conservation.

    The coins were conserved in the 2000-2001 timeframe, correct? If so, how long before it's "reasonably safe" that a piece won't change (I know, nothing in life is guaranteed).

    Need a $20 lib for a type set, and am trying to have my type set contain relatively few years. I have my 1909 mint set and chose 1857 as another year because of the large cent/fe cent transition, and last year of the half cent. So the 1857-S's pop up a bunch and I assume most if not all (even if not attributed) are shipwreck gold. I could always choose a Philly coin, but the shipwreck coins are "cool" because of the wreck. I just want the coin to last a while, not turn ugly in a few years.

    -Fred

    Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins

  • bushmaster8bushmaster8 Posts: 5,616 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I guess they were not cleaned too well then. wink wink >>



    What do you mean by "wink wink"? >>



    Wink wink= come hither young lad. Sheesh, do we have to explain everything to you? image
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The December 2000 auction by Christie's of SS Central America items contained a number of "unconserved" gold and silver pieces including a Kellogg & Humbert ingot with several encrusted Double Eagles "fused" to it as found on the ocean floor. Here are links to selected online pages from the catalog. >>




    15.71 ounces of gold coins and other mineral deposits image
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
    These coins were displayed at the hotel across the street from my office, I think in 1996 or 1997, and were then auction at the same location. No secret was made that said coins were conserved, then slabbed. It was fascinating to see these coins, knowing their history, and to be candid, PCGS did an excellent job cleaning them up. Still, my gut told me not to buy one, and I didn't (plus with all the hype, they were not inexpensive, either).
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Probably residue from what ever torture NCS does to them. >>



    NCS did not conserve the SSCA shipwreck coins. >>



    I don't think NCS existed at the time. Did it?

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