Leiascards, you have no right to email the buyer. Granted we have discussed the problem on this board in depth but this is between tcbphd and the buyer. Dont stick you nose where it doesnt belong.
<< <i>Leiascards, you have no right to email the buyer. Granted we have discussed the problem on this board in depth but this is between tcbphd and the buyer. Dont stick you nose where it doesnt belong. >>
Sorry I think the buyer has a right to know what is going on. They are being called a scammer and added to peoples BBLs due to this and we have not heard their side either. So you know where you can stick your nose.
Its not an INR claim it is a Not as Described claim. That is why they are having to send it back. The bright side for the seller is if they don't send it back with DC Paypal will not do anything. Only thing seller has to worry about is getting a negative.
<< <i>Yeah--that is weird (INR vs not as described). Paypal said that that's the right category for them to file under though. >>
Paypal is correct, recieving an envelope with DC on it should be filed under the SNAD not INR. Otherwise the buyer has no shot of winning the claim legitimate or not. They will have to send the empty envelope back with DC to get anything back.
13.11 Significantly Not As Described. To the extent that we provide reimbursement for losses for items that are Significantly Not as Described when received by the buyer (which we may do under all programs except the Buyer Complaint Policy), an item is Significantly Not as Described if the seller clearly misrepresented the details of the item in a way that affects its value or usability. This does not include cases where the buyer is merely disappointed with the item or where the item did not meet the buyer's expectations. Here are some of the reasons that an item may be considered Significantly Not as Described:
The item is missing a major portion or quantity. For example, if the buyer ordered four dozen golf balls but only received one dozen or four golf balls, or the item is missing a primary component, like a blender missing a top or a coffee maker missing the bottom plate.
This would mean if they recieved the package, but not the actiual items this is where they need to file.
A few years ago, one of the PayPal monkeys told me to think of it as, "The seller said the item was visible; when it arrived, it was invisible." Thus, SNAD.
The seller can throw a wrench in the EVIL PP machine by simply reporting that "buyer returned an empty envelope."
Yes; that's nutty, BUT no more so than PayPal's conduct.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Leia, great comeback on the age thing. You've got a differing point of view than many of the posters that have added their 2 cents. $5, $20...$1000. Your tipping point is going to be different than everyone else's. Where do you get off with the attitude about what you accept as a loss on your business versus what anyone else is willing to accept?? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. The original poster said that the buyer claims empty envelope. As I see it, PP can't possibly require the buyer to return the merchandise with or without DC as it's going to be an empty envelope. Whether this is a scam or not is irrelevant. What kind of protection does one have if they will allow this type of return. And the argument that you didn't load the card(s) or any other merchandise into the package is ludicrous. Sure, it happens. Just like a lost package every now and again. The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. Sure, if the card is insured, I can be made whole. That's fine. I'm also unwilling to give away merchandise to someone that can take what they've received, claim empty envelope and get both my card and my money. Anyone who is willing to accept that can be in business all they want. Good luck staying in business giving away merchandise and cash. The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine.
**Edited to add that I'm not a dealer, only a collector that might sell some of my collection to get other cards for my collection - nothing more**
Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Tom Seaver, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Bob Gibson, Lou Brock player collector
<< <i>Leia, great comeback on the age thing. You've got a differing point of view than many of the posters that have added their 2 cents. $5, $20...$1000. Your tipping point is going to be different than everyone else's. Where do you get off with the attitude about what you accept as a loss on your business versus what anyone else is willing to accept?? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. The original poster said that the buyer claims empty envelope. As I see it, PP can't possibly require the buyer to return the merchandise with or without DC as it's going to be an empty envelope. Whether this is a scam or not is irrelevant. What kind of protection does one have if they will allow this type of return. And the argument that you didn't load the card(s) or any other merchandise into the package is ludicrous. Sure, it happens. Just like a lost package every now and again. The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. Sure, if the card is insured, I can be made whole. That's fine. I'm also unwilling to give away merchandise to someone that can take what they've received, claim empty envelope and get both my card and my money. Anyone who is willing to accept that can be in business all they want. Good luck staying in business giving away merchandise and cash. The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine.
**Edited to add that I'm not a dealer, only a collector that might sell some of my collection to get other cards for my collection - nothing more** >>
If you are going to be in business you have to accept the fact losses are going to happen. Think of what Wal-Mart loses in a year to shoplifting and damaged property. I know Wal-mart used to budget the larger stores for 1 million a year in such loses.
I budget a loss of 2500 a year into my restaurant for outdated food and other issues. Fact is on Ebay I have probaly given 10 refunds in 6 years none over 40.00. That is really going to kill me. As you said though everyone has a threshold of what they consider to be too much. I say 25.00 or less its not worth fighing about.
True about write offs. But let's face it...most people here and on eBay aren't really in business doing this. I'm small fry compared to the big guys...I like my collection and I like the hunt to find cards that I want. But I have to have a zero in the "loss account". I can't afford to send out cards and take a loss. Yes, I'll bite it on the smaller buck stuff, but bigger dollars isn't ok.
Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Tom Seaver, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Bob Gibson, Lou Brock player collector
Whether this is a scam or not is irrelevant. What kind of protection does one have if they will allow this type of return............ The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. ....... Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine. .............
This kind of decision puts BOTH buyers and sellers at harsh risk.
IF the DC/SC does not constitute "proof" of delivery of "an item," the whole system will eventually implode. Sellers and buyers both need to be able to rely on the USPS tickets to uphold their positions.
..........
Before XMAS, INR liability of some/most sellers will be eliminated in international transactions. They better do it on domestic deals as well, IF they insist on using robots to make INR/SNAD decisions.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Then you have situations like I am dealing with. I shipped an item to a buyer she emails me back saying it was heavily damaged in shipping. I tell her to ship it back and I will check it for the small mark I put on all items I send. First flag was she balked at the mark thing saying that there is no mark she has looked all over the item for it and cannot find it. I told her to return it and I would refund it. I got it back today there is no way in he77 it is the same item I sent, but I am going to refund the 22.00 add her to my BBL resell it loose for 15 to 20.00 paid 7.00 for the item so I will still be ahead slightly on the matter.
I am sorry you are not delighted with your purchase. Please return the item, along with its original packaging. When the item has been inspected and our seller-mark confirms that it is the item we shipped, we will issue an immediate refund to you.
Where buyers can really get scammed is in the category of purchasing multiple items from the same seller that are supposed to be shipped together. I had this happen a few months ago from a power seller - bought 6 inexpensive cards (total came to $13 and change), he shipped 5 of them and ignored several emails (including ebay messages) from me about the missing one. I filed a SNAD dispute. He did not respond. I escalated it to a claim, and it was denied instantaneously. I got the last laugh, because I paid through credit card. I won my dispute through them, and got my $2.05 back. Under PayPal's TOS, he was also hit with a $10 fee from PayPal for having a credit card co. dispute opened against him. However, if I had paid through PayPal balance or bank account transfer, I would have been out the money.
"It should not have been denied under Paypal terms.. They should have required you to ship them back with DC."
//////////////////////////////////////////////
PayPal and the CC compnaies are both now allowing/encouraging "partial refunds," like the one granted to NickM.
On multiple items in the same package, I double check a packing-slip. When a mistake is cited by a buyer, I eat it on cheap stuff; tell them to go away on expensive stuff.
Sellers can also be shafted on multiple-items paid on more than one invoice. EACH invoice is counted as an item. PayPal NOW has a combo option that allows multiple items to be combined AFTER payment is received; the single ticket details all of the items and allows for a single package to be shipped safely.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
When you put a DC on a bubble envelope it needs to be a certain thickness. An empty bubble envelope isn't thick enough and could get caught by the shipper's or buyer's Post Office for requiring additional postage, especially when the postage applied has been printed out by the shipper himself. What a trip it would be if the buyer returned the empty envelope with a DC and the seller got hit for postage due. Ouch.
Is there a limit to how many of these types of buyer claims one can make? Can someone do 5 in a month? 10? 50? How far can this go? It's not a bad scammers gig to do a couple hundred dollars worth of cards and take the boot from Paypal. Yes, there are some desperate enough to do this for a couple hundred bucks.
<< <i>Is there a limit to how many of these types of buyer claims one can make? Can someone do 5 in a month? 10? 50? How far can this go? It's not a bad scammers gig to do a couple hundred dollars worth of cards and take the boot from Paypal. Yes, there are some desperate enough to do this for a couple hundred bucks. >>
I cannot believe the lack of common sense or basically sheer stupidity of some of the people here. The OP is trying to make a point. Let's just assume this is a hypothetical situation. He is trying to bring attention to the fact that buyers can con people out of cards by saying they aren't packed in the envelope. THAT IS THE POINT. How can anyone prove anything. Imagine if this was for a 500.00 transaction. He is pointing out that the system is flawed. I cannot believe that some people are going off on the fact that he may have not included the card. Whether he did or didn't isn't the main point.....reading these threads make me feel like pounding my head into the freaking wall...
Last week, a lady in MD was busted for stealing $100,000 from EBAY sellers.
Today, the caca has hit the fan on a $200,000 CC scam. One lady, all in fashion.
PayPal is asking the sellers to "find" their DC/SC tickets; some of the sales are two-years old. Do all of you card sellers have your 2-year old delivery confirmations?
Sellers who cannot "prove" delivery are about to have their PP accounts drained.
The FBI is in the mix on both of the above cases.
The OP and ongoing events clearly point to the lack of "seller protection" that PP provides.
The Australian regulators said it best, when they asked rhetorically:
"If PayPal is so safe, why do 1 in 300 transactions involve some kind of fraud, while Australian banks report 1 in 3000 of their online payments result in a claim of fraud?
<< <i>I cannot believe the lack of common sense or basically sheer stupidity of some of the people here. The OP is trying to make a point. Let's just assume this is a hypothetical situation. He is trying to bring attention to the fact that buyers can con people out of cards by saying they aren't packed in the envelope. THAT IS THE POINT. How can anyone prove anything. Imagine if this was for a 500.00 transaction. He is pointing out that the system is flawed. I cannot believe that some people are going off on the fact that he may have not included the card. Whether he did or didn't isn't the main point.....reading these threads make me feel like pounding my head into the freaking wall... >>
I think that is the problem. The OP later said he might be lying but there was still a point here to be made. I think everyone is getting upset over a situation that may have never occured with the OP.
I am not asking anyone to get upset over my $20.00 transaction. I wanted to know if anyone had experienced the same thing and (after Paypal responded) I wanted to point out a possible new flaw in the system. That's all. The end.
PayPal is asking the sellers to "find" their DC/SC tickets; some of the sales are two-years old. Do all of you card sellers have your 2-year old delivery confirmations?
Last time I checked most DC and SC numbers are only viewable for 3 or 4 months then they are recycled. I found an old one written on an old auction listing that is dated Feb 2006 in a folder of about 15 old listing print outs. When I pulled the number it shows it was delivered 3 weeks ago. It shows that item was mailed 4 days earlier.
Comments
I would just refund. Even Storm said you should refund if the amount is small. 20.00 is small in most peoples eyes.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
<< <i>Leiascards, you have no right to email the buyer. Granted we have discussed the problem on this board in depth but this is between tcbphd and the buyer. Dont stick you nose where it doesnt belong. >>
Sorry I think the buyer has a right to know what is going on. They are being called a scammer and added to peoples BBLs due to this and we have not heard their side either. So you know where you can stick your nose.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
//////////////////////////////////////////
The refund is NOT important. I agree with simply giving the buyer the
likely undeserved refund. I disagree with PayPal's handling of the claim.
The ISSUE is that PayPal is violating their OWN TOS under the "Seller
Protection" scheme.
In almost 10-years, I have had SCORES of fraudluent INR claims by buyers;
all but ONE has been for less than $10.00; some for $2.00.
<< <i>WOW.... didnt know you were a private dick[/q
Did not know you were 10, does your mommy know you are on the computer? No wonder 5.00 is a big deal to you probaly a weeks allowance.
<< <i>Yeah--that is weird (INR vs not as described). Paypal said that that's the right category for them to file under though. >>
Paypal is correct, recieving an envelope with DC on it should be filed under the SNAD not INR. Otherwise the buyer has no shot of winning the claim legitimate or not. They will have to send the empty envelope back with DC to get anything back.
The item is missing a major portion or quantity. For example, if the buyer ordered four dozen golf balls but only received one dozen or four golf balls, or the item is missing a primary component, like a blender missing a top or a coffee maker missing the bottom plate.
This would mean if they recieved the package, but not the actiual items this is where they need to file.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
SNAD is the correct classification.
A few years ago, one of the PayPal monkeys told me to think
of it as, "The seller said the item was visible; when it arrived,
it was invisible." Thus, SNAD.
The seller can throw a wrench in the EVIL PP machine by
simply reporting that "buyer returned an empty envelope."
Yes; that's nutty, BUT no more so than PayPal's conduct.
$5, $20...$1000. Your tipping point is going to be different than everyone else's. Where do you get off with the attitude about what you accept as a loss on your business versus what anyone else is willing to accept?? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.
The original poster said that the buyer claims empty envelope. As I see it, PP can't possibly require the buyer to return the merchandise with or without DC as it's going to be an empty envelope. Whether this is a scam or not is irrelevant. What kind of protection does one have if they will allow this type of return. And the argument that you didn't load the card(s) or any other merchandise into the package is ludicrous. Sure, it happens. Just like a lost package every now and again. The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. Sure, if the card is insured, I can be made whole. That's fine. I'm also unwilling to give away merchandise to someone that can take what they've received, claim empty envelope and get both my card and my money. Anyone who is willing to accept that can be in business all they want. Good luck staying in business giving away merchandise and cash.
The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine.
**Edited to add that I'm not a dealer, only a collector that might sell some of my collection to get other cards for my collection - nothing more**
What Paypal does next is up to what the buyer does.
<< <i>Leia, great comeback on the age thing. You've got a differing point of view than many of the posters that have added their 2 cents.
$5, $20...$1000. Your tipping point is going to be different than everyone else's. Where do you get off with the attitude about what you accept as a loss on your business versus what anyone else is willing to accept?? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.
The original poster said that the buyer claims empty envelope. As I see it, PP can't possibly require the buyer to return the merchandise with or without DC as it's going to be an empty envelope. Whether this is a scam or not is irrelevant. What kind of protection does one have if they will allow this type of return. And the argument that you didn't load the card(s) or any other merchandise into the package is ludicrous. Sure, it happens. Just like a lost package every now and again. The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. Sure, if the card is insured, I can be made whole. That's fine. I'm also unwilling to give away merchandise to someone that can take what they've received, claim empty envelope and get both my card and my money. Anyone who is willing to accept that can be in business all they want. Good luck staying in business giving away merchandise and cash.
The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine.
**Edited to add that I'm not a dealer, only a collector that might sell some of my collection to get other cards for my collection - nothing more** >>
If you are going to be in business you have to accept the fact losses are going to happen. Think of what Wal-Mart loses in a year to shoplifting and damaged property. I know Wal-mart used to budget the larger stores for 1 million a year in such loses.
I budget a loss of 2500 a year into my restaurant for outdated food and other issues. Fact is on Ebay I have probaly given 10 refunds in 6 years none over 40.00. That is really going to kill me. As you said though everyone has a threshold of what they consider to be too much. I say 25.00 or less its not worth fighing about.
The precedent being set gives me, the buyer, no protection at all. The PP thing cannot possibly be turned over to a bot. .......
Common sense and the winding of stories can't be caught by the machine. .............
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Exactly.
This kind of decision puts BOTH buyers and sellers at harsh risk.
IF the DC/SC does not constitute "proof" of delivery of "an item,"
the whole system will eventually implode. Sellers and buyers
both need to be able to rely on the USPS tickets to uphold
their positions.
..........
Before XMAS, INR liability of some/most sellers will be eliminated
in international transactions. They better do it on domestic deals
as well, IF they insist on using robots to make INR/SNAD decisions.
Dear Buyer:
I am sorry you are not delighted with your purchase.
Please return the item, along with its original packaging.
When the item has been inspected and our seller-mark
confirms that it is the item we shipped, we will issue an
immediate refund to you.
Thank you for your patronage.
Respectfully,
seller
.....................................................................
95% of the time, there is no return forthcoming.
Because I mostly sell used electronis and designer-fashion,
switcheroos are extremely common.
The witches try to return their worn-out purses, and the
warlocks swap the guts out of electronics.
Please, don't anybody try to EVER tell me that "people
are basically good."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Blacklight pens are sold at most office supply stores.
Seams can also be "thread laced" with an extra piece
of thread that NOBODY can ever find......except for the
person that installed it.
A solder-drop can be placed on a component board and
photographed.
I got the last laugh, because I paid through credit card. I won my dispute through them, and got my $2.05 back. Under PayPal's TOS, he was also hit with a $10 fee from PayPal for having a credit card co. dispute opened against him.
However, if I had paid through PayPal balance or bank account transfer, I would have been out the money.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
//////////////////////////////////////////////
PayPal and the CC compnaies are both now allowing/encouraging
"partial refunds," like the one granted to NickM.
On multiple items in the same package, I double check a packing-slip.
When a mistake is cited by a buyer, I eat it on cheap stuff; tell them
to go away on expensive stuff.
Sellers can also be shafted on multiple-items paid on more than one
invoice. EACH invoice is counted as an item. PayPal NOW has a combo
option that allows multiple items to be combined AFTER payment is
received; the single ticket details all of the items and allows for a
single package to be shipped safely.
I know this because it has happened to me.
A buyer once told me that the mailer was empty. After a few emails back and forth he later wrote
it was found and that he inadvertantly threw it out.
To the OP thanks for linking the auction.
Looks like you are right we sellers do have a problem.
Steve
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
<< <i>Is there a limit to how many of these types of buyer claims one can make? Can someone do 5 in a month? 10? 50? How far can this go? It's not a bad scammers gig to do a couple hundred dollars worth of cards and take the boot from Paypal. Yes, there are some desperate enough to do this for a couple hundred bucks. >>
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Limits" do not properly police the problem.
The pros have hundreds of disposable IDs.
PayPal and the CC companies do monitor the number of
claims, but there are PP stories of people using the same
scam repeatedly.
Did not know you were 10, does your mommy know you are on the computer? No wonder 5.00 is a big deal to you probaly a weeks allowance.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
Number one learn how to quote a message, number two, did it take all day to think that one up? Thanks for the filthy PM too, your perverse!
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
Today, the caca has hit the fan on a $200,000 CC scam. One lady, all in fashion.
PayPal is asking the sellers to "find" their DC/SC tickets; some of the sales are
two-years old. Do all of you card sellers have your 2-year old delivery confirmations?
Sellers who cannot "prove" delivery are about to have their PP accounts drained.
The FBI is in the mix on both of the above cases.
The OP and ongoing events clearly point to the lack of "seller protection" that PP
provides.
The Australian regulators said it best, when they asked rhetorically:
"If PayPal is so safe, why do 1 in 300 transactions involve some kind of fraud,
while Australian banks report 1 in 3000 of their online payments result in
a claim of fraud?
More Crimes
<< <i>Why is everyone so blind to the fact the OP might have shipped an empty envelope.. THESE THINGS HAPPEN. >>
Then where are the cards??
<< <i>
<< <i>Why is everyone so blind to the fact the OP might have shipped an empty envelope.. THESE THINGS HAPPEN. >>
Then where are the cards?? >>
His daughter took it back.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>I cannot believe the lack of common sense or basically sheer stupidity of some of the people here. The OP is trying to make a point. Let's just assume this is a hypothetical situation. He is trying to bring attention to the fact that buyers can con people out of cards by saying they aren't packed in the envelope. THAT IS THE POINT. How can anyone prove anything. Imagine if this was for a 500.00 transaction. He is pointing out that the system is flawed. I cannot believe that some people are going off on the fact that he may have not included the card. Whether he did or didn't isn't the main point.....reading these threads make me feel like pounding my head into the freaking wall... >>
I think that is the problem. The OP later said he might be lying but there was still a point here to be made. I think everyone is getting upset over a situation that may have never occured with the OP.
I am not asking anyone to get upset over my $20.00 transaction. I wanted to know if anyone had experienced the same thing and (after Paypal responded) I wanted to point out a possible new flaw in the system. That's all. The end.
two-years old. Do all of you card sellers have your 2-year old delivery confirmations?
Last time I checked most DC and SC numbers are only viewable for 3 or 4 months then they are recycled. I found an old one written on an old auction listing that is dated Feb 2006 in a folder of about 15 old listing print outs. When I pulled the number it shows it was delivered 3 weeks ago. It shows that item was mailed 4 days earlier.
<< <i><< WOW.... didnt know you were a private dick[/q
Did not know you were 10, does your mommy know you are on the computer? No wonder 5.00 is a big deal to you probaly a weeks allowance.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
Number one learn how to quote a message, number two, did it take all day to think that one up? Thanks for the filthy PM too, your perverse! >>
Dirty and Perverse? If that pm was dirty and perverse you got some real issues.. Here is the only PM I sent to him
OHH BIG MAN GOTTA START NAME CALLING>>> GO AWAY...