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Nothing in envelope scam--new Paypal policy allows?
tcbphd
Posts: 125
Anyone had a buyer who claimed the (padded) envelope arrived in good shape, but there was no card inside? I have delivery confirmation, but how can I "prove" there was something in there?
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There is always the possibilty of mail theft.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
If it's large money, I might make the buyer file with PayPal.
The buyer will lose by default.
(If the package was insured, a claim can be filed.)
Obviously, it is always possible the buyer is telling the truth.
No way to know for sure. See if his FB left for others has any lingo like:
"Seller was very understanding"
"Seller was easy to work with"
"Seller solved the problem"
Those can all be signs that the buyer is a serial CROOK.
.................
Reverse-----
This scenario plays itself out EVERYDAY when scamster-buyers
return EMPTY packages to sellers. The buyer simply shows
PayPal the DC and the buyer gets a refund AND gets to keep
the item.
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You should be able to see the weight in paypal as you'd have to enter it into paypal to print the shipping label. Even if you did it on the usps site you'd have gotten an email confirmation with the details. And even if you deleted that, your profile on the USPS site will show the weight you entered. Now, just because you entered a weight doesn't mean it necessarily weighed that much. I've bumped the weight on a couple items when they were within that .1 of going up in price. So for example, I'll weigh something and it comes out 1.9 oz. Well, once i print the label and put in the piece of popcorn, it might be 2.1 (the next increment) so I just put 3 oz and pay the extra 18 cents or whatever it is.
Hope it works out for you. I agree with storm again though (as usual when it comes to ebay). Check the buyers feedback rec'd and left, it can say lot by saying just a little.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
The envelope was secured properly with tape and the buyer says it arrived whole and intact with no problem. But they say that the cards were not in the envelope, only a single sheet of paper. They claim I mailed an empty envelope.
I see some BBLs being updated soon.
If you did, I would call a supervisor at PP and tell him that
you are being scammed by a "buyer," and that PP is an
accomplice to the CRIME.
I would also file a rifled-mail report at the USPS.
The buyer is ALMOST certainly a lying crook.
EBAY PayPal board.
If PP is going to start buying into this kind of garbage, they need to
be challenged on it.
<< <i>I called Paypal and the guy said that they have a new automatic dispute resolution system. Apparently it resolves some low-dollar amount claims without human review. >>
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The empty envelope scam should NOT be grounds for
PP making refunds. If they start that, NOBODY is safe.
I would tell the supervisor that you want to appeal
their decision.
I just thought it was interesting that this guy said this automatic system is new (started this week). Who knows?
Steve
One of them was sent in a card box, all the tape around had been cut, and it had a simple rubber band around!!
As soon as i open it I assumed it would be empty but the cards were there, almost like someone wanted to see what was inside.
Another in a bubble mailer, someone cut an edge, big enough to slip the card out, again the card was still inside, somehow the card didn't slip out.
Anything is possible...
What we can go by is if a a person is doing a scam for low price item, we can assume the person has a history
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
<< <i>Think it's time to out the scammer before it happens again to someone else. >>
Yeah I agree. Are you going to share with us the Ebay user id?
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Steve
Another thing that kills me is I paid for but never recieved a card back in May and it was sent with tracking (Not delivery confirmation) and I asked if I should neg the seller and everyone screamed at me. Now one of our board members is getting scammed and the reciever is an evil card stealing devil. Mine was a 100% loss because I paid for the card, never recieved it and feel like I cant neg the seller since that will not help anything at all. No help from the seller or the USPS. Talk about throwing stones. Sorry just my rant.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
1. The buyer is trying to scam the buyer.
or
2. The seller did actually forget to put the card in the envelope. It does happen.
If I remember right your item had DC on it that showed the item had been delivered. The seller had fulfilled their obligation by proving delivery. It could have been stolen out of your mail box, delivered to your neighbor or anything.
Whats even worse if this "nothing in the envelope" thing always goes in favor of the buyer I will just buy from sportslots, dealers and board members.
Edit: BTW block cinnredsfan32 on ebay, he wins but does not pay.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
Why would you not buy on Ebay if this goes in favor of the buyer? Which there is a 99.9% chance it will. To me that shows the buyer is protected to the point even scamming buyers are protected.. The same thing can happen on Sportslots and Naxcom if you read their policies as well.
Bottom line in the eyes of the law and what is right is the SELLER is ultimately responsible for getting the item to the buyer in the condition they bought it in. Sellers who hide behind "not responsible for lost mail" or whatever are in for a rude awakening on Ebay.
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Me too.
When fur's card got lost, nobody was mean to him. The consensus
was simply that PayPal will not help the buyer, if the online DC says
the item was delivered.
If such an item is insured, a claim can still be filed even if the DC says
the item was delivered. In fur's case, the buyer failed to insure the
item, AND failed to offer a refund/replacement.
In the instant controversy - based on what we have been told - the
buyer claims he got an empty package. The chances of that happening
are ALOT more remote than an item being misdelivered.
If the instant buyer is telling the truth, he probably feels like fur does.
I will not refund/replace an expensive item that DC/SC shows as delivered. I
will file an insurance claim if the buyer insists. For that reason, it sometimes
benefits a buyer to pay for insurance if the seller refuses to provide it.
(Obviously, if I know the person I am sending stuff to, I will be responsible
for its safe delivery. BUT, when dealing with the current crop of EBAY
buyers, I have little confidence in their honesty.)
PayPal has caused the breach of trust thru their semi-ridiculous refund policies.
The UCC should prevail, just like it does in "ordinary" commerce. Everything
should be sold FOB, and the buyer/seller should decide who is going to pay
for the insurance. Sellers who offer "free" insurance would, in theory, get
more customers over time.
If fur's seller had not had a ticket showing delivery, the consensus vote
on the "NEG or not question" would have likely been different.
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That is all PayPal requires for cheap items.
<< <i>"It had tracking on it saying it was delivered to a zip code ..."
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That is all PayPal requires for cheap items. >>
That is all delivery confirmation ever shows. Contrary to public belief Delivery Confirmation is not tracking it is just Delivery Confirmation. The only time it works as tracking is IF it gets scanned along the way. We have seen on these boards many only get scanned once or twice at the most. What you see if pretty much all the USPS can determine about DC as well. I have an item that the DC still says it is in transit and has been since March. My local PO has tried everyday since then to locate this package with no avail.
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Of course, sellers who can get by without using PayPal can get away
with it until their numbers turn bad enough and they are forced to
take PP.
PayPal is the only payment method I take in ALL categories, so I am
forced to guarantee delivery. That means I have to build the insurance
cost/risk into the retail prices; and I do.
EBAY said today, "PP acounts for 74% of payments on EBAY."
EBAY accounts for 60% of PP transactions; that means PP will
likely be a fine stand-alone creature, soon.
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Yup.
MANY folks do not realize that.
Often, in the "get more details" box on the USPS site, it will show
how the travel is going, but not always. But, the service is not sold
as "tracking."
<< <i>"That is all delivery confirmation ever shows. Contrary to public belief Delivery Confirmation is not tracking it is just Delivery Confirmation...." >>
To me delivery confirmation is when I actually have to sign for the item or the item will not be delivered until:
1. I sign a "missed delivery notice card" that is left in my mailbox and say its ok to leave at my address.
2. I go directly to the post office to pick it up.
All my package had was online tracking saying it was delivered to my zip code so if the seller had two packages to send to the same zip he could really mess with someone.
Have a great Friday!
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
Anyone second the nomination?
Steve
<<<<OK--now it gets stupid. Paypal says that they need to return the item to me and have tracking to prove it was sent. Then they get their refund. But the issue is that the buyer claims there WAS NO ITEM delivered. You can see where this is going . . . I'll post again when the whole thing plays out.>>>>>
If paypal already sided with the buyer, why then did they later say he needs to return the item?
By siding with, did you mean he was already refunded?
This story does not add up. And w/o a link I have nothing to go on but what the OP has claimed.
Frankly, I need more.
Steve
The item in question is actually some Webkinz cards I was selling for my daughter. (Hey--if I HAD a son, I'd be dealing with baseball cards . . .) Anyway, it is the principles involved that concern me--particularly in light of the new "no negatives for buyers" rule and the (apparently) new Paypal rule. Taken together they could hurt sellers.
Paypal communication (after several e-mails):
From Seller: Thomas Bond on 6/18/2008 15:14 PDT
Cards were sealed in the envelope, the envelope was weighed (indicating significant contents), postage was attached, and it was mailed with tracking and confirmation. Insurance was optional and not elected by buyer. The claim that no cards were in the envelope is simply untrue.
From Buyer: K---- M----- on 6/18/2008 14:35 PDT
As stated in my previous email with you, there were no cards in the envelope I received. I have contacted the Post Office in Bismarck and there is nothing in the lost bin here.
I got an e-mail stating:
"This claim has been reviewed and it has been determined that a full refund
of the PayPal transaction (including shipping and handling) should be
awarded to the buyer once the item, in its original condition, is returned
to you. The buyer is responsible for shipping and handling costs related to
returning the item to you.
You have provided the following shipping address:
XXXX Main Street
Atlanta, GA XXXXX
United States
The buyer has 10 calendar days to provide proof of shipment for the item
being returned. PayPal will issue a refund from your account once the we
can confirm that the item was shipped."
And the status on Paypal says:
"We are reviewing the tracking information to confirm delivery of the returned item. Once delivery is confirmed, a full refund will be issued to the buyer. Please let us know if you have received the returned item, so we can process the refund immediately."
Not sure what happens next. Anyway, you can see the problems of an automated system. Will I get an empty envelope back? Can I then file a complaint about that? Again, I'll let you know how it plays out in the end.
If they filed with Paypal on a SNAD the buyer will be required to return the item with DC to get their money back.
<< <i>The buyer does not raise any flags and the item is not what I would consider a high risk item.. The total is under 20.00 just refund and move on life is too short to worry about small things like that. >>
I disagree. It seems the more we look the other way with these "small things" then more and more "small things" start to happen.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
<< <i>Its not the $20.00, its the point of recieving something you paid for and ensuring what you have sold is delivered properly. >>
Are you getting the topic of this post? The OP is the SELLER not the buyer. As I have said numerous times the SELLER IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING THE ITEM TO THE BUYER. IF THIS BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE THEY SHOULD DO THE RIGHT THING AND REFUND.
If you will reread your thread. I said the seller should refund but since the DC showed delivered Paypal would do nothing and the seller was not obligated to do so. Trust me I understand your argument, but in your case you were wanting to neg the seller for what was clearly a USPS screw-up.
I amend my comments to say "lying or mistaken" -- do not mean to disparage anyone -- but again, my $20 is not the issue. Think about yourselves! If YOU get a similar claim, how can you defend yourselves?
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It is not about $20.00.
It is about an out of control RICO enterprise using bots to
assist other criminals in stealing from sellers.
The FIRST time they pull it on me will be pretty close to the
last time they pull it on anybody else. The ONLY thing that
gang of corruptniks understands is litigation; when they
mess with the wrong person, they will get a HUGE surprise.
<< <i>OK--last one from me. I sent the item. They are lying and saying they got the envelope fine but nothing was inside. There's no screw up with the mail. Just a lying buyer. >>
Are you certain the item was in the envelope.? It is possible. I have done it before as have probaly other sellers here. I would still refund and move on, Paypal will side with them and could lock your account. You will get a neg from them if Paypal goes through their process, you have a chance of salvaging a positive out of this by just refunding.
You say the packaged was weighed indicating they were in there.. How much did it weigh? Most of us can tell you if the cards were in there or not by that amount.
<< <i>OK--last one from me. I sent the item. They are lying and saying they got the envelope fine but nothing was inside. There's no screw up with the mail. Just a lying buyer. >>
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I agree.
If you get to the right supervisor at PayPal, they will likely reverse
the robot's decision.
If they failed to solve the problem for ME, they would be reading
about it on the front-page of the WSJ when I filed suit.
I have been down the road with MANY corrupt corporations in my
life. The ONLY way to deal with them is in court.
A PP decision against the sellers in this instance is a blatant
violation of PP's seller-protection scheme. The seller has proof
of delivery, and PP's robots are disregarding it.
The implications are bad here. If this kind of ruling stands, no
seller will be safe.
I love how people here see one side of a story and holler scam fraud whatever. I see nothing that would indicate this buyer has a history of this and I honestly doubt there are many scammers buying Webkinz cards. Most of the time when we get the other side on many stories here we start to see the truth.
I emailed the buyer about the matter will see what they say.
The empty envelope scam that was refered to in the OP is usually a seller shipping an empty envelope to the buyer or a location within that zip code with delivery confirmation. It rarely goes like this one is playing out. Usually the buyer files a SNAD with Paypal and sends an empty envelope back with DC
The idea was not to "out" a buyer, but to demonstrate the problem. The upshot is this: someone can claim that they got an empty envelope and get their money back. The specifics of this case do not matter to the larger question. I am getting tired of saying this . . .
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MOST buyer fraud occurs on items under $10.00.
I quit selling single/inexpensive postcards because
of all the wonderful buyers that EBAY allows to steal.
If all it takes for a scamster to win a dispute is the "empty
envelope" claim, sellers will be history, soon.
The buyer has no visible history of scamming. And, neither
does the seller. Neither fact is an issue here. The crux of
the problem is that the seller has a DC; THAT is supposed
to trump an INR claim under PayPal's "seller proctection"
scheme.
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The buyer and seller should have both already filed rifled
mail forms with the USPS.
What I think may have happened the seller ACCIDENTLY did not put the cards in the envelope and his daughter put them back in her room or whatever and now the seller cannot find them and is ASSUMING the buyer is a scammer.
I know the seller here is like so many others here believe they are PERFECT and INCAPABLE OF MAKING MISTAKES..
How do we know this was not an empty envelope scam that blew up in the scammers face? We don't, but I doubt it.
I also wanted to point out I often get bubble mailers that are retaped by the postal service after coming undone in shipping. Just because it was sealed and taped like it was sent does not mean it was not rifled through.