There are no books or websites to my knowledge that can give you much reliable inform-
I'll keep lurking here and adding you folk's informative posts to my favorites. Thanks!
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
There are no books or websites to my knowledge that can give you much reliable inform- ation about the availability of the early gem quarters. There are a few noncomprehensive sources for variety information but nothing for gems.
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter series to co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge to do so.
I linked the first paragraph of this reply but failed to use the italic font to indicate this is not my original quote. Cladking used this quote and I copied it.
<< <i>There are no books or websites to my knowledge that can give you much reliable inform- ation about the availability of the early gem quarters. There are a few noncomprehensive sources for variety information but nothing for gems.
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter series to co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge to do so. >>
That's a reference that is sorely needed, IMO, and will become more so in the years to come as more folks realize the potential of these coins.
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Not only are the no books, etc...... but even some of the Price Guides on Clad are problematic. The PCGS price guide is very good overall, especially on the various series where Jamie H. (editor) has the time to do all the research as he is a very strong researcher and understands the difference between prices on the different grading companies' products. Coin World prices (IMHO) is constantly facing the issue of how to price a coin - do they use NGC pricing or PCGS pricing. To date, they have chosen to use NGC pricing for their Guide (the best I know from a conversation with their editor earlier this month). Do you guys remember the 1980 quarter thread here recently where an NGC-MS68 sold for a few hundred dollars and I offered to buy a PCGS-MS68 for about 10x that price? So, CW has a big issue there - whenever they get around to pricing, for example, the 1980-P quarter in MS68 - do they show a price of a few hundred dollars (last sale on an NGC coin) OR do they show $3,000 - an actual legitimate bid by me - I would buy either the P and D for that today if given the chance. If they show $300 as the value - what if someone makes a PCGS graded coin and uses the guide to put it out for sale on ebay BIN at $300? On the other hand, if they use $3000, what if some buyer wants to pay that on an NGC coin? I have some thoughts on this and plan to share them with Mark F and Al D from Coin World later this month. And, I thank CW for taking the time to interview me for their 6/9/08 Cover Story and publishing a very nice article (coverning the 1916 casting I purchased for JHF a few weeks ago). Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The primary question in my mind is where will the collectors brought in by the state quarters will go. Will the go sideways towards other moderns and clad coins or will they begin go move backwards towards silver washingtons...etc.
It was my thought years ago they would move back, not sideways so to speak. However, I am reevaluating that thought as time moves on. It is an empirical issue that will be tested in the coming years. >>
I doubt that we will ever see the return of the original Washington quarter reverse design. After the Territories program is over I'm sure that Congress will enact another program with rotating designs to commemorate something or other. The cat is out of the bag on that idea and won't be put back in for quite a long time. I think the majority of the state quarter collectors will move forward to the next quarter fad, and will move neither back nor sideways as far as their "collecting" goes.
Last night I pulled out my Dansco Washington album. The clad quarters in the album are the best of clad quarters I acquired as a kid new from circulation and as an adult collector over the years. I have no slabbed circulation strike clad quarters.
In looking at the clad quarters in my Dansco I have a few comments:
1. MS Clad quarters can develop gorgeous toning that really generates eye appeal. The toned MS |Clad quarters that I have range from a single color to rainbow colors and from rim toned to fully toned on one or both sides. The colors include golden, silver, light blue, darker blue, light green, darker green, orange, red and purple;
2. The planchets used to strike the coins range from flawed with lots of marks and dings that were not eliminated through striking to high quality (with no marks or dings going into the striking chamber, or with same going in but not coming out of the striking chamber);
3. The quality of the coins ranges from low end (with soft, mushy appearances due to severly worn out dies and/or inadequate striking pressure) to very high end (with very strong and sharp strikes, lettering, dates and devices fully struck up, minimal marks on the fields and devices and very nice luster);
4. For some reason (maybe people here can explain how it came to be) the Philly Mint coins for certain years (late 60's to 1977 and then again from 1980 to the late 80s [I did not inspect the 1990's quarters]) are of far inferior quality than the Denver Mint issues of the same years. The 1978 and 1978 Philly quarters I have are of high quality.
Everytime I look at these MS Clad quarters (and others I have been lucky to find and acquire), I like them more and more. I like them because of their beauty, I like them because I have an appreciation of just how hard it is to find examples of these coins that are attractive, I like them because I was able to acquire them for modest money and I like them because they have largely been ignored.
In the past I have been lucky enough to acquire these raw MS Clad quarters for modest money (at most a few dollars per coin, many times less than a dollar). My mind set on purchasing raw coins like these has begun to change though. I like them so much that if I find one I really like, I would be willing to pay much higher prices for same.
For those who collect MS Clad coinage, do you restrict yourselves to raw, or to slabbed or are you open to both. If open to both, how much more will you pay for a slabbed coin over the same coin raw?
Also, what are your short term and long term plans for your stash of MS Clads?
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter series to co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge to do so.
. >>
There's a thought. We have a lot of expertise on the subject.
There are even a few people with pretty good knowledge of the mint sets. Between all of us we know these things coming and going. I'd be happy to write about the coins in circulation and anything else you'd like.
Of course if we saw a good outline we might each be inclined to write it ourselves.
<< <i>Thanks for the insights, CK. As always, I learned a lot. I've been going through bank rolls of nickels fairly often and believe that the coin counting machines are just destroying huge quantities of these that might otherwise be collectable. It seems almost criminal the way they are chewed up. That's going to make even tougher to put together a nice set. >>
You do realize the main purpose of coins is to promote commerce not to make collectors happy! While I feel sad when I find a coin that has been destroyed, when it happens in a counting machine it's part of life!
<< <i>4. For some reason (maybe people here can explain how it came to be) the Philly Mint coins for certain years (late 60's to 1977 and then again from 1980 to the late 80s [I did not inspect the 1990's quarters]) are of far inferior quality than the Denver Mint issues of the same years. The 1978 and 1978 Philly quarters I have are of high quality. >>
Denver made most of their clad over the years in a fairly tight range around MS-62 or 63. Mint set coins are in a tight range around MS-64. There is variation between dates and denominations, though. Almost all their coins will fall between MS-60 and MS-66 by the time they leave the mint. MS-67 and above as well as really ugly coins that shouldn't even be considered unc are outlyers.
Philly coins occupy a broader range at a lower leven and has a lot more variability over the years. Their coins tend to be centered around MS-61 but commonly will be as high as MS-64 and would be "MS-56" if we graded that way. Generally even nice MS-66's are outlyers for Philly. But at the highest end of the range the Philly coins are pretty nice. Often they're actually easier to find than Denver. Where the Philly coins tend to have lots of problems which vary a lot from one coin to the next, the Denvers often has some minor problem that affects the entire production.
Denver runs in tighter operating parameters. When Philly finally makes one right, it's as nice as the best of the Denvers.
I agree with the OP, but hope they'll lay semi-dormant for a little while longer. I prefer collecting raw, and hate to see the clads become (more) popular cherries till I've seen them all.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
"Mitch Id really love to see your true thoughts on the Jefferson series, which is where my interest lies nowdays."
Thanks Bill.
Bill - Next year, when JHF sells his entire Jefferson nickel collection (1938-date) - IMHO price records will be shattered and the Jefferson nickel series will "be squarely on the map". Keep in mind that JHF has many coins that have NEVER been auctioned before- all sorts of MS68FS War Nickels, keys in unheard of grades (e.g. 54-S MS67, 55-P MS67, 55-D MS66, etc.) and 1965-date monster pieces as well. From my experience, it takes an auction such as what will occur with JHF's set to debut a series (a coming out party of sorts) and this auction (IMHO) will do exactly that. So, knowing how I feel about what will occur next year with JHF's set, my "true thoughts" are I am very excited about the Jefferson nickel series. I have a "top 20" set of MS Jeffersons myself (including some very neat pieces like the 50-D in MS67FS) and I wouldn't think of selling the coins until sometime after JHF's auction is history (well - I generally don't sell virtually any of my registry set coins anyway and I probably won't even sell after JHF's auction come to think of it).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Thanks for the insights, CK. As always, I learned a lot. I've been going through bank rolls of nickels fairly often and believe that the <EM>coin counting machines are just destroying huge quantities of these that might otherwise be collectable<EM>. <STRONG>It seems almost criminal the way they are chewed up.</STRONG> That's going to make even tougher to put together a nice set. >>
You <STRONG>do</STRONG> realize the main purpose of coins is to promote commerce not to make collectors happy! While I feel sad when I find a coin that has been destroyed, when it happens in a counting machine it's part of life! >>
I just can't accept that! It's like watching the machines attack Earth on Battlestar Galactica! Oh the horror!
But really, I do accept this, but I can't help thinking the machines are really increasing the rate of attrition of circulating coins--and, of course, making it more difficult to build a set from circulation.
Another observation is that it seems as though more recent dates are more battered by the machines than older dates (as far as nickels). Anyone else notice this?
About 50 years ago, I noticed that the George V nickels in circulation, then a quarter century old, themselves, were in pristine condition. A few years later, I noticed that these seem to be all now scratched up as also were the new young head Elizabeth II. Conventional wisdom at that time blamed this on parking meters. Both of these types are now long gone from circulation - scratches and all. I did not notice that degree of scratches on any other denominations.
Edited to mention that these observations were made in both Maine and Canada. In the late 50's when the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US dollar, coins of both countries circulated quite freely on both sides of the border.
Wow, to find coins like that in circulation! Interesting about the wear-and-tear, too. I find the nickels wrapped by the big companies are the worst, while local credit union nickels and such appear to be in much better shape.
While the clad era has begun in terms of condition rarity, it still remains an open proposition as to how many collectors are going to buy into the condition rarity concept for these. Some will pay $$$ and others will not mainly because they will likely be satisfied with lower grade examples. That seems to be the real question.
Contributions to the hobby of coin collecting is a different subject and perhaps a difficult thing to measure.
I have made a point on this forum to suggest that originality is important and it will become increasingly important as the population of original coins dwindles to the point of near extinction. I think those that have expressed their thoughts, established a record that includes a solution to mitigate the problem of dipping and enhancing coins have made a contribution. Unfortunately, the contribution may not be appreciated today, but it will when future generations inherit the collectible coins left by the greed of this generation of collectors.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
While the clad era has begun in terms of condition rarity, it still remains an open proposition as to how many collectors are going to buy into the condition rarity concept for these. Some will pay $$$ and others will not mainly because they will likely be satisfied with lower grade examples. That seems to be the real question.
Contributions to the hobby of coin collecting is a different subject and perhaps a difficult thing to measure.
I have made a point on this forum to suggest that originality is important and it will become increasingly important as the population of original coins dwindles to the point of near extinction. I think those that have expressed their thoughts, established a record that includes a solution to mitigate the problem of dipping and enhancing coins have made a contribution. Unfortunately, the contribution may not be appreciated today, but it will when future generations inherit the collectible coins left by the greed of this generation of collectors. >>
Ultimately, it's pretty tough to assign a value to how much anyone contributes to the hobby and how much the hobby contributes to the human race. Many people come to the hobby merely as an outlet, obsession, or passtime anyway, and are hardly concerned with what they are contributing. We each have our own reasons for even be- ing in the hobby. If it's true that modern collecting will fall by the way- side as so many believe then all this "work" will be for naught anyway.
As far as demand, we really have a reasonbale handle on it because we know how many coins how much money will buy. But this same process can shed some light on supply as well.
Using such inferences it's really pretty certain that most of the modern clads are scarcer in unc than a '50-D nickel. These coins exist in a wide range of quality with most usually being very poor.
Indeed there are fewer of many of the moderns in unc than there are 1931-S cents in unc. A lot of people will immediately want to point out that the '31-S cent is scarcer in the lower grades as well and that the typical clad has hundreds of millions in circulation. Consider though, that the '31-S's all tend to be in nice condition because they were pull- ed out of circulation quickly and the clads can all be beaten up and worn out. Still you have the fact that while one '31-S cent usually looks a lot like any '31-S cent, this is hardly true for the clad; only a small percentage even looks nice.
It is demand that makes a typical "commom" '31-S cent worth over $100 and a scarce truly choice '83-P quarter only $25. The cent is "just a cent" and fifty times more common but there are a lot more people who want one.
The clad coin is in circulation. Not only is it hiding scarce coins with its numbers but it acts as a calling card to collectors. Tens of millions of states quarter collectors search through these calling cards every day. If even a few start collecting the older coins then there will be a very great change in the pricing of these coins.
<< <i>SanctionII: Here is what I base my opinion on:
A. The difference between noise and music - "timing" of course. The 1965-1990's Mint State clad coins are now "ripe". Enough time has passed. Coins that have remained very low pop over the past 5-10 years (even 20+ years of PCGS grading) have "proven themselves" in many collectors' eyes .
B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days.
C. PCGS is as strict as they ever have been (IMHO) on the grades on these coins. Remember what happened to 1934-date Wheat cents in MS68RD or better date MS67RD when it was a known fact that PCGS was brutal on these coins? Let me refresh your memory in case you have forgotten - 1954-P MS67RD - about $20,000, misc. (common date) MS68RD coins $10,000 - $20,000, etc. IMHO, the same is starting to happen now with key date clad MS coins. It is just the beginning IMHO.
D. We still have a great % of contrarian collectors who hate post 1964 coinage. A 1969-P quarter in true MS67 - I know and Cladking knows and Russ knows and 50 other people know just how scarce and valuable that coin is. BUT, at the same time, 500 other classic collectors still have no idea (i.e. that the coin is probably a $5,000+ coin in true MS67 grade). As they begin to catch on, just watch what happens to prices!!
lets face it. i find the whole condition rarity thing in moderns to be marketing. 1969P quarters are not even worth sending in unless they are GEM BU. sigh. have fun! >>
I'd challenge you to even come up with a nice choice MS-63 '69 quarter in a week. It needs to be reasonably well struck and not heavily marked. No chicken scratching around the peri- phery though.
You won't find one nor will you find a BU roll even if you had the contacts.
It wasn't too hard a few years ago because all you really need is access to ten or twelve mint sets but finding this number of mint sets isn't so easy any longer. >>
Before clicking the link on the roll of 1969D quarters, I thought "it is a roll assembled from mint sets". I was right.
CladKing has commented before about how unlikely it would be to find an original roll of MS 1969 P or D quarters and that even if you got lucky and found one, the quality of the coins would be low end, with the best coin in the roll maybe grading out at 63.
Does anyone here have any original rolls of early Clad quarters? If so post a picture so we can see what the look like.
P.S. It is still most interesting that as of yet no flames have arisen in this thread, even though Wondercoin asked if his response was enough to start the flaming.
There are a few original rolls of '69-D quarters around. These came fairly nice so a few thousand rolls were saved.
This roll is very unlikely to be an original roll. I can't tell with certainty from just seeing the writing on the cap and part of the top coin but the odds say it's almost certainly a mint set roll. This is because the top coin appears to be nearly fully struck. While the coins came nice in rolls, fewer than about 1% were so well struck. This would mean chance or intention caused it to be here. Since the chance is remote then it would seem to follow that either it was cher- ried out of a bag or was found in a mint set.
People were simply not cherrying bags of quarters in 1969. The notion was simply absurd in those days. But there are many thousands, even tens of thousands of mint set rolls. The writing seems to reinforce the idea that this is one of them.
‘’Bill - Next year, when JHF sells his entire Jefferson nickel collection (1938-date) - IMHO price records will be shattered and the Jefferson nickel series will "be squarely on the map". Keep in mind that JHF has many coins that have NEVER been auctioned before- all sorts of MS68FS War Nickels, keys in unheard of grades (e.g. 54-S MS67, 55-P MS67, 55-D MS66, etc.) and 1965-date monster pieces as well.’’
WARNING - OLD THREAD! 18 year update …
We never got to see those shattered price records on Jeffersons auctioned directly by JHF, because one of the “legends” in Classic US coin collecting put a deal together with me to buy virtually every Jefferson nickel JHF owned, lock, stock and barrel (not too long after the time of this thread). Obviously, today great Jeffs (especially the “modern” ones) are in huge demand and continue to shatter price records.
Wondercoin
P.S. CladKing - where is your list!
I made a list of ten or twelve things that would all have to occur before
moderns took off.
P.S.S. #1 St. Gaudens collector branches out this year into State quarters and buys the #1 MS State Quarter set? Can you make this stuff up!! 😆.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Catbert said:
My take away from this old thread is that the dreams of high demand for moderns continue to be fantasy.
Indeed!
But it is obvious demand is still continuing to increase and that the supply is still sufficient to meet it. There are signs that this tiny supply might be becoming stressed. Try to find a 1982-P quarter that is well made from good dies on eBay at Greysheet prices. These coins in nice MS-64 are bringing $100 now days.
Many times as many '09-S VDB's or '16-D dimes trade on eBay than "common" coins like '83-D half dollars. This simply can't continue because the total supply of many moderns is too low.
I still have a complete and never opened odw (original dealer wrap) roll set of Wartime silver nickels that I purchased in 1983. What are the chances of finding FS nickels in these rolls?
Also still have multiple rolls of 1960’s 1970’s and 1980’s clad dimes and quarters I never studied in many years.
Oreville - depends on the dealer you bought them from. If it was one of these guys on the CU board that hates moderns, the rolls are likely filled with FS nickels! 😆
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It has been almost 16 years since I started this thread.
For me, the only thing I have done with clad coins is submit for grading some SMS clads; and submit for grading two 1969 P Quarters and a 1983 P quarter.
The SMS clads have graded ok (I received a few Cameo designations).
On the 1969 P and 1983 P quarters I received grades of MS66 on all of them.
@BobGreene said:
<< The primary question in my mind is where will the collectors brought in by the state quarters will go. Will the go sideways towards other moderns and clad coins or will they begin go move backwards towards silver washingtons...etc.
It was my thought years ago they would move back, not sideways so to speak. However, I am reevaluating that thought as time moves on. It is an empirical issue that will be tested in the coming years.
>
I doubt that we will ever see the return of the original Washington quarter reverse design. After the Territories program is over I'm sure that Congress will enact another program with rotating designs to commemorate something or other. The cat is out of the bag on that idea and won't be put back in for quite a long time.
Well try finding P mint Ikes in PCGS 66 plus and up. They are selling for serious money yes even the toned ones. Not sure what they were doing in 2008.
Stickered ones are selling for more than serious money
I went to a local show last weekend. One dealer had MS Clad Ikes from 1972-1978 with very attractive multi color toning for sale. They were in PCGS slabs and graded from MS64 to MS66. The dealer asking price for each coin ranged from about $1,100.00 to over $1,500.00.
They did look very eye appealing in the dealer's well illuminated display case. I expected asking prices above $500.00 but did not expect above $1,000.00 for the assigned grade range.
I kept it in my head and ticked everything off as it came to pass.
The last thing was mint set prices would spike higher and this happened a couple years back. I knew this would touch off a cascade of events resulting in sharply higher BU roll prices and eventually higher singles pricing and finally higher catalog prices.
Things have not been playing out as I predicted, at least not quite. For one it's all in very slow motion and two years in and only the retail BU roll market has caught fire.
@wondercoin said:
The next 16 years hopefully will be equally exciting!
Wondercoin
I'm certainly hoping for much more exciting for those of us in the trenches.
It's important for the health and integrity of these markets for the high end to be exciting but without a foundation I doubt they can remain strong indefinitely.
@SanctionII said:
I went to a local show last weekend. One dealer had MS Clad Ikes from 1972-1978 with very attractive multi color toning for sale. They were in PCGS slabs and graded from MS64 to MS66. The dealer asking price for each coin ranged from about $1,100.00 to over $1,500.00.
They did look very eye appealing in the dealer's well illuminated display case. I expected asking prices above $500.00 but did not expect above $1,000.00 for the assigned grade range.
@SanctionII said:
I went to a local show last weekend. One dealer had MS Clad Ikes from 1972-1978 with very attractive multi color toning for sale. They were in PCGS slabs and graded from MS64 to MS66. The dealer asking price for each coin ranged from about $1,100.00 to over $1,500.00.
They did look very eye appealing in the dealer's well illuminated display case. I expected asking prices above $500.00 but did not expect above $1,000.00 for the assigned grade range.
‘’It's important for the health and integrity of these markets for the high end to be exciting but without a foundation I doubt they can remain strong indefinitely.’’
CK- Foundation? Let’s talk about this!! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mr. Hansen recently bought his 1954-P cent in MS67RD for more than $31,000.00. It had previously sold back in 2006 at auction for about $20,000.00. I had identified the 1954-P cent in 67RD as a “sleeper” date in 67RD right here on the boards going back to around 2002. To this day, the “foundation” is about $1/coin in Uncirculated condition!! A roll of 50 just sold on eBay for under $50!!! This 1954 cent is only about a dozen years earlier than where the clad coinage begins.
Foundation/smoundation !!! 😝. No foundation needed for great clad coins in top grade to maintain and surpass current value levels IMHO.
I’m sure no one here disagrees. 🤣
Any responses that actually contain REAL facts like I just provided in a succinct paragraph? I can’t wait to analyze / respond coherently to them.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It will be interesting for the hobby, when those hobby participants born prior to 1965 (when silver still circulated) pass away. When they pass their mostly negative view of modern clad coinage will pass with them.
Comments
I'll keep lurking here and adding you folk's informative posts to my favorites. Thanks!
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
ation about the availability of the early gem quarters. There are a few noncomprehensive
sources for variety information but nothing for gems.
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter series to
co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge to do so.
I linked the first paragraph of this reply but failed to use the italic font to indicate this is not my original quote. Cladking used this quote and I copied it.
<< <i>There are no books or websites to my knowledge that can give you much reliable inform-
ation about the availability of the early gem quarters. There are a few noncomprehensive
sources for variety information but nothing for gems.
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter series to
co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge to do so. >>
That's a reference that is sorely needed, IMO, and will become more so in the years to come as more folks realize the potential of these coins.
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Wondercoin
<< <i>The primary question in my mind is where will the collectors brought in by the state quarters will go. Will the go sideways towards other moderns and clad coins or will they begin go move backwards towards silver washingtons...etc.
It was my thought years ago they would move back, not sideways so to speak. However, I am reevaluating that thought as time moves on. It is an empirical issue that will be tested in the coming years.
>>
I doubt that we will ever see the return of the original Washington quarter reverse design. After the Territories program is over I'm sure that Congress will enact another program with rotating designs to commemorate something or other. The cat is out of the bag on that idea and won't be put back in for quite a long time. I think the majority of the state quarter collectors will move forward to the next quarter fad, and will move neither back nor sideways as far as their "collecting" goes.
In looking at the clad quarters in my Dansco I have a few comments:
1. MS Clad quarters can develop gorgeous toning that really generates eye appeal. The toned MS |Clad quarters that I have range from a single color to rainbow colors and from rim toned to fully toned on one or both sides. The colors include golden, silver, light blue, darker blue, light green, darker green, orange, red and purple;
2. The planchets used to strike the coins range from flawed with lots of marks and dings that were not eliminated through striking to high quality (with no marks or dings going into the striking chamber, or with same going in but not coming out of the striking chamber);
3. The quality of the coins ranges from low end (with soft, mushy appearances due to severly worn out dies and/or inadequate striking pressure) to very high end (with very strong and sharp strikes, lettering, dates and devices fully struck up, minimal marks on the fields and devices and very nice luster);
4. For some reason (maybe people here can explain how it came to be) the Philly Mint coins for certain years (late 60's to 1977 and then again from 1980 to the late 80s [I did not inspect the 1990's quarters]) are of far inferior quality than the Denver Mint issues of the same years. The 1978 and 1978 Philly quarters I have are of high quality.
Everytime I look at these MS Clad quarters (and others I have been lucky to find and acquire), I like them more and more. I like them because of their beauty, I like them because I have an appreciation of just how hard it is to find examples of these coins that are attractive, I like them because I was able to acquire them for modest money and I like them because they have largely been ignored.
In the past I have been lucky enough to acquire these raw MS Clad quarters for modest money (at most a few dollars per coin, many times less than a dollar). My mind set on purchasing raw coins like these has begun to change though. I like them so much that if I find one I really like, I would be willing to pay much higher prices for same.
For those who collect MS Clad coinage, do you restrict yourselves to raw, or to slabbed or are you open to both. If open to both, how much more will you pay for a slabbed coin over the same coin raw?
Also, what are your short term and long term plans for your stash of MS Clads?
<< <i>
Maybe it's time for those of us with extensive experience with the 1965-98 clad quarter
series to co-author such a reference guide. We probably have the combined knowledge
to do so.
. >>
There's a thought. We have a lot of expertise on the subject.
There are even a few people with pretty good knowledge of the mint sets. Between
all of us we know these things coming and going. I'd be happy to write about the coins
in circulation and anything else you'd like.
Of course if we saw a good outline we might each be inclined to write it ourselves.
<< <i>Thanks for the insights, CK. As always, I learned a lot. I've been going through bank rolls of nickels fairly often and believe that the coin counting machines are just destroying huge quantities of these that might otherwise be collectable. It seems almost criminal the way they are chewed up. That's going to make even tougher to put together a nice set. >>
You do realize the main purpose of coins is to promote commerce not to make collectors happy! While I feel sad when I find a coin that has been destroyed, when it happens in a counting machine it's part of life!
<< <i>4. For some reason (maybe people here can explain how it came to be) the Philly Mint coins for certain years (late 60's to 1977 and then again from 1980 to the late 80s [I did not inspect the 1990's quarters]) are of far inferior quality than the Denver Mint issues of the same years. The 1978 and 1978 Philly quarters I have are of high quality. >>
Denver made most of their clad over the years in a fairly tight range around MS-62 or 63. Mint
set coins are in a tight range around MS-64. There is variation between dates and denominations,
though. Almost all their coins will fall between MS-60 and MS-66 by the time they leave the mint.
MS-67 and above as well as really ugly coins that shouldn't even be considered unc are outlyers.
Philly coins occupy a broader range at a lower leven and has a lot more variability over the years.
Their coins tend to be centered around MS-61 but commonly will be as high as MS-64 and would
be "MS-56" if we graded that way. Generally even nice MS-66's are outlyers for Philly. But at the
highest end of the range the Philly coins are pretty nice. Often they're actually easier to find than
Denver. Where the Philly coins tend to have lots of problems which vary a lot from one coin to the
next, the Denvers often has some minor problem that affects the entire production.
Denver runs in tighter operating parameters. When Philly finally makes one right, it's as nice as the
best of the Denvers.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Mitchell and cladking.
You guys rock.
Mitch Id really love to see your true thoughts on the Jefferson series, which is where my interest lies nowdays.
Clad, I cannot possibly thank you for all the information you have shared over the years, you are one in a zillion.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
You may want to get those toned beauties (from your album) slabbed by PCGS because of the color alone.
Attractively toned clad coins are much more difficult to find than their silver counterparts.
Thanks Bill.
Bill - Next year, when JHF sells his entire Jefferson nickel collection (1938-date) - IMHO price records will be shattered and the Jefferson nickel series will "be squarely on the map". Keep in mind that JHF has many coins that have NEVER been auctioned before- all sorts of MS68FS War Nickels, keys in unheard of grades (e.g. 54-S MS67, 55-P MS67, 55-D MS66, etc.) and 1965-date monster pieces as well. From my experience, it takes an auction such as what will occur with JHF's set to debut a series (a coming out party of sorts) and this auction (IMHO) will do exactly that. So, knowing how I feel about what will occur next year with JHF's set, my "true thoughts" are I am very excited about the Jefferson nickel series. I have a "top 20" set of MS Jeffersons myself (including some very neat pieces like the 50-D in MS67FS) and I wouldn't think of selling the coins until sometime after JHF's auction is history (well - I generally don't sell virtually any of my registry set coins anyway and I probably won't even sell after JHF's auction come to think of it).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the insights, CK. As always, I learned a lot. I've been going through bank rolls of nickels fairly often and believe that the <EM>coin counting machines are just destroying huge quantities of these that might otherwise be collectable<EM>. <STRONG>It seems almost criminal the way they are chewed up.</STRONG> That's going to make even tougher to put together a nice set. >>
You <STRONG>do</STRONG> realize the main purpose of coins is to promote commerce not to make collectors happy! While I feel sad when I find a coin that has been destroyed, when it happens in a counting machine it's part of life! >>
I just can't accept that! It's like watching the machines attack Earth on Battlestar Galactica! Oh the horror!
But really, I do accept this, but I can't help thinking the machines are really increasing the rate of attrition of circulating coins--and, of course, making it more difficult to build a set from circulation.
Another observation is that it seems as though more recent dates are more battered by the machines than older dates (as far as nickels). Anyone else notice this?
Edited to mention that these observations were made in both Maine and Canada. In the late 50's when the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US dollar, coins of both countries circulated quite freely on both sides of the border.
While the clad era has begun in terms of condition rarity, it still remains an open proposition as to how many collectors are going to buy into the condition rarity concept for these. Some will pay $$$ and others will not mainly because they will likely be satisfied with lower grade examples. That seems to be the real question.
Contributions to the hobby of coin collecting is a different subject and perhaps a difficult thing to measure.
I have made a point on this forum to suggest that originality is important and it will become increasingly important as the population of original coins dwindles to the point of near extinction. I think those that have expressed their thoughts, established a record that includes a solution to mitigate the problem of dipping and enhancing coins have made a contribution. Unfortunately, the contribution may not be appreciated today, but it will when future generations inherit the collectible coins left by the greed of this generation of collectors.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Interesting thread...
While the clad era has begun in terms of condition rarity, it still remains an open proposition as to how many collectors are going to buy into the condition rarity concept for these. Some will pay $$$ and others will not mainly because they will likely be satisfied with lower grade examples. That seems to be the real question.
Contributions to the hobby of coin collecting is a different subject and perhaps a difficult thing to measure.
I have made a point on this forum to suggest that originality is important and it will become increasingly important as the population of original coins dwindles to the point of near extinction. I think those that have expressed their thoughts, established a record that includes a solution to mitigate the problem of dipping and enhancing coins have made a contribution. Unfortunately, the contribution may not be appreciated today, but it will when future generations inherit the collectible coins left by the greed of this generation of collectors. >>
Ultimately, it's pretty tough to assign a value to how much anyone
contributes to the hobby and how much the hobby contributes to
the human race. Many people come to the hobby merely as an outlet,
obsession, or passtime anyway, and are hardly concerned with what
they are contributing. We each have our own reasons for even be-
ing in the hobby. If it's true that modern collecting will fall by the way-
side as so many believe then all this "work" will be for naught anyway.
As far as demand, we really have a reasonbale handle on it because
we know how many coins how much money will buy. But this same
process can shed some light on supply as well.
Using such inferences it's really pretty certain that most of the modern
clads are scarcer in unc than a '50-D nickel. These coins exist in a wide
range of quality with most usually being very poor.
Indeed there are fewer of many of the moderns in unc than there are
1931-S cents in unc. A lot of people will immediately want to point out
that the '31-S cent is scarcer in the lower grades as well and that the
typical clad has hundreds of millions in circulation. Consider though,
that the '31-S's all tend to be in nice condition because they were pull-
ed out of circulation quickly and the clads can all be beaten up and worn
out. Still you have the fact that while one '31-S cent usually looks a lot
like any '31-S cent, this is hardly true for the clad; only a small percentage
even looks nice.
It is demand that makes a typical "commom" '31-S cent worth over $100
and a scarce truly choice '83-P quarter only $25. The cent is "just a cent"
and fifty times more common but there are a lot more people who want
one.
The clad coin is in circulation. Not only is it hiding scarce coins with its
numbers but it acts as a calling card to collectors. Tens of millions of
states quarter collectors search through these calling cards every day.
If even a few start collecting the older coins then there will be a very
great change in the pricing of these coins.
<< <i>SanctionII: Here is what I base my opinion on:
A. The difference between noise and music - "timing" of course. The 1965-1990's Mint State clad coins are now "ripe". Enough time has passed. Coins that have remained very low pop over the past 5-10 years (even 20+ years of PCGS grading) have "proven themselves" in many collectors' eyes .
B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days.
C. PCGS is as strict as they ever have been (IMHO) on the grades on these coins. Remember what happened to 1934-date Wheat cents in MS68RD or better date MS67RD when it was a known fact that PCGS was brutal on these coins? Let me refresh your memory in case you have forgotten - 1954-P MS67RD - about $20,000, misc. (common date) MS68RD coins $10,000 - $20,000, etc. IMHO, the same is starting to happen now with key date clad MS coins. It is just the beginning IMHO.
D. We still have a great % of contrarian collectors who hate post 1964 coinage. A 1969-P quarter in true MS67 - I know and Cladking knows and Russ knows and 50 other people know just how scarce and valuable that coin is. BUT, at the same time, 500 other classic collectors still have no idea (i.e. that the coin is probably a $5,000+ coin in true MS67 grade). As they begin to catch on, just watch what happens to prices!!
Is that enough for now to start the flaming?
Wondercoin >>
well written, very informative
Keep going folks, I really appreciate the information and opinons being presented here.
<< <i>
<< <i>
lets face it. i find the whole condition rarity thing in moderns to be
marketing. 1969P quarters are not even worth sending in unless they
are GEM BU. sigh. have fun!
>>
I'd challenge you to even come up with a nice choice MS-63 '69 quarter in a week. It needs
to be reasonably well struck and not heavily marked. No chicken scratching around the peri-
phery though.
You won't find one nor will you find a BU roll even if you had the contacts.
It wasn't too hard a few years ago because all you really need is access to ten or twelve mint
sets but finding this number of mint sets isn't so easy any longer. >>
I fond this is this what we need to look for.1969-D Quarter Roll's
Hoard the keys.
CladKing has commented before about how unlikely it would be to find an original roll of MS 1969 P or D quarters and that even if you got lucky and found one, the quality of the coins would be low end, with the best coin in the roll maybe grading out at 63.
Does anyone here have any original rolls of early Clad quarters? If so post a picture so we can see what the look like.
<< <i> I fond this is this what we need to look for.1969-D Quarter Roll's >>
There are a few original rolls of '69-D quarters around. These came fairly
nice so a few thousand rolls were saved.
This roll is very unlikely to be an original roll. I can't tell with certainty from
just seeing the writing on the cap and part of the top coin but the odds say
it's almost certainly a mint set roll. This is because the top coin appears to
be nearly fully struck. While the coins came nice in rolls, fewer than about 1%
were so well struck. This would mean chance or intention caused it to be here.
Since the chance is remote then it would seem to follow that either it was cher-
ried out of a bag or was found in a mint set.
People were simply not cherrying bags of quarters in 1969. The notion was
simply absurd in those days. But there are many thousands, even tens of
thousands of mint set rolls. The writing seems to reinforce the idea that this
is one of them.
‘’Bill - Next year, when JHF sells his entire Jefferson nickel collection (1938-date) - IMHO price records will be shattered and the Jefferson nickel series will "be squarely on the map". Keep in mind that JHF has many coins that have NEVER been auctioned before- all sorts of MS68FS War Nickels, keys in unheard of grades (e.g. 54-S MS67, 55-P MS67, 55-D MS66, etc.) and 1965-date monster pieces as well.’’
WARNING - OLD THREAD! 18 year update …
We never got to see those shattered price records on Jeffersons auctioned directly by JHF, because one of the “legends” in Classic US coin collecting put a deal together with me to buy virtually every Jefferson nickel JHF owned, lock, stock and barrel (not too long after the time of this thread). Obviously, today great Jeffs (especially the “modern” ones) are in huge demand and continue to shatter price records.
Wondercoin
P.S. CladKing - where is your list!
I made a list of ten or twelve things that would all have to occur before
moderns took off.
P.S.S. #1 St. Gaudens collector branches out this year into State quarters and buys the #1 MS State Quarter set? Can you make this stuff up!! 😆.
My take away from this old thread is that the dreams of high demand for moderns continue to be fantasy.
True... and condition rarity is still a hit and run proposition.
I see enough mint rolls of modern quarters at shows to think a set would be fun to build.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Indeed!
But it is obvious demand is still continuing to increase and that the supply is still sufficient to meet it. There are signs that this tiny supply might be becoming stressed. Try to find a 1982-P quarter that is well made from good dies on eBay at Greysheet prices. These coins in nice MS-64 are bringing $100 now days.
Many times as many '09-S VDB's or '16-D dimes trade on eBay than "common" coins like '83-D half dollars. This simply can't continue because the total supply of many moderns is too low.
@Wondercoin:
I still have a complete and never opened odw (original dealer wrap) roll set of Wartime silver nickels that I purchased in 1983. What are the chances of finding FS nickels in these rolls?
Also still have multiple rolls of 1960’s 1970’s and 1980’s clad dimes and quarters I never studied in many years.
Oreville - depends on the dealer you bought them from. If it was one of these guys on the CU board that hates moderns, the rolls are likely filled with FS nickels! 😆
Wondercoin.
It has been almost 16 years since I started this thread.
For me, the only thing I have done with clad coins is submit for grading some SMS clads; and submit for grading two 1969 P Quarters and a 1983 P quarter.
The SMS clads have graded ok (I received a few Cameo designations).
On the 1969 P and 1983 P quarters I received grades of MS66 on all of them.
The next 16 years hopefully will be equally exciting!
Wondercoin
In the rarified atmosphere in which you play I doubt it could be any more exciting.
Down here in the trenches it's been interesting more than exciting.
I just hope I'm here to see the next 16 years which should be a blast.
Winner winner!
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I could do without those obnoxious blurry images on the first page, way too hard on the eyes.
Well try finding P mint Ikes in PCGS 66 plus and up. They are selling for serious money yes even the toned ones. Not sure what they were doing in 2008.
Stickered ones are selling for more than serious money
Always a few outliers...
I went to a local show last weekend. One dealer had MS Clad Ikes from 1972-1978 with very attractive multi color toning for sale. They were in PCGS slabs and graded from MS64 to MS66. The dealer asking price for each coin ranged from about $1,100.00 to over $1,500.00.
They did look very eye appealing in the dealer's well illuminated display case. I expected asking prices above $500.00 but did not expect above $1,000.00 for the assigned grade range.
I kept it in my head and ticked everything off as it came to pass.
The last thing was mint set prices would spike higher and this happened a couple years back. I knew this would touch off a cascade of events resulting in sharply higher BU roll prices and eventually higher singles pricing and finally higher catalog prices.
Things have not been playing out as I predicted, at least not quite. For one it's all in very slow motion and two years in and only the retail BU roll market has caught fire.
I'm certainly hoping for much more exciting for those of us in the trenches.
It's important for the health and integrity of these markets for the high end to be exciting but without a foundation I doubt they can remain strong indefinitely.
Those are remarkable prices for these grades.
It's for the color, not so much for the grade.
‘’It's important for the health and integrity of these markets for the high end to be exciting but without a foundation I doubt they can remain strong indefinitely.’’
CK- Foundation? Let’s talk about this!! Wondercoin
‘’Foundation talk’’
Mr. Hansen recently bought his 1954-P cent in MS67RD for more than $31,000.00. It had previously sold back in 2006 at auction for about $20,000.00. I had identified the 1954-P cent in 67RD as a “sleeper” date in 67RD right here on the boards going back to around 2002. To this day, the “foundation” is about $1/coin in Uncirculated condition!! A roll of 50 just sold on eBay for under $50!!! This 1954 cent is only about a dozen years earlier than where the clad coinage begins.
Foundation/smoundation !!! 😝. No foundation needed for great clad coins in top grade to maintain and surpass current value levels IMHO.
I’m sure no one here disagrees. 🤣
Any responses that actually contain REAL facts like I just provided in a succinct paragraph? I can’t wait to analyze / respond coherently to them.
Wondercoin
It will be interesting for the hobby, when those hobby participants born prior to 1965 (when silver still circulated) pass away. When they pass their mostly negative view of modern clad coinage will pass with them.
I wonder how clad coinage will be viewed then.