On 6-1-2008 Wondercoin stated the "MS Clad era is about to explode on the scene". Wonderco
SanctionII
Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
............. would you be so kind as to tells us the details and reasons behind your statement.
BTW he posted his statement on 6-1-2008 on the Registry Forum in a thread about Kennedy halves. I just read his reply to that thread and it got me curious. Hopefully he will give some details and reasons.
BTW he posted his statement on 6-1-2008 on the Registry Forum in a thread about Kennedy halves. I just read his reply to that thread and it got me curious. Hopefully he will give some details and reasons.
0
Comments
If you look at some recent sales the dollar amounts to me are mind blowing. I can see why collectors would go this route.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
In his defence it's only been three days.
A. The difference between noise and music - "timing" of course. The 1965-1990's Mint State clad coins are now "ripe". Enough time has passed. Coins that have remained very low pop over the past 5-10 years (even 20+ years of PCGS grading) have "proven themselves" in many collectors' eyes .
B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days.
C. PCGS is as strict as they ever have been (IMHO) on the grades on these coins. Remember what happened to 1934-date Wheat cents in MS68RD or better date MS67RD when it was a known fact that PCGS was brutal on these coins? Let me refresh your memory in case you have forgotten - 1954-P MS67RD - about $20,000, misc. (common date) MS68RD coins $10,000 - $20,000, etc. IMHO, the same is starting to happen now with key date clad MS coins. It is just the beginning IMHO.
D. We still have a great % of contrarian collectors who hate post 1964 coinage. A 1969-P quarter in true MS67 - I know and Cladking knows and Russ knows and 50 other people know just how scarce and valuable that coin is. BUT, at the same time, 500 other classic collectors still have no idea (i.e. that the coin is probably a $5,000+ coin in true MS67 grade). As they begin to catch on, just watch what happens to prices!!
Is that enough for now to start the flaming?
Wondercoin
<< <i>
Is that enough for now to start the flaming?
Wondercoin >>
Let me help.
I made a list of ten or twelve things that would all have to occur before
moderns took off. This was back in 1978 and at that time it didn't seem
possible that it would take longer than 6 or 8 years. Really it seemed as
though if it hadn't happened before 1985 or so then it never would.
But I was wrong. The first thing on the list (attention of the numismatic
press) didn't even happen until 1986, and the last one (differentiation in
mint sets) didn't happen until just this past summer.
Close observers will see that there are increasing ads in the papers for
moderns and increasing numbers of companies beginning to serve these
markets.
As I've long said; there isn't even enough of a lot of this material to feed
the pipeline. We will see inventories of raw material continue to shrink
until there is nothing left for prices to rise.
As WonderCoin said, this isn't a few guys competing any longer but thou-
sands of collectors pursuing coins for collections. As the scale of the end-
eavor changes it has to be fundamentally alterred in order to be in line
with the available supply.
Whether we see this new order in the near future or next year or some
other time, there can't really be much doubt that it is coming.
Thanks
Rob
<< <i>SanctionII: Here is what I base my opinion on:
A. The difference between noise and music - "timing" of course. The 1965-1990's Mint State clad coins are now "ripe". Enough time has passed. Coins that have remained very low pop over the past 5-10 years (even 20+ years of PCGS grading) have "proven themselves" in many collectors' eyes .
B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days.
C. PCGS is as strict as they ever have been (IMHO) on the grades on these coins. Remember what happened to 1934-date Wheat cents in MS68RD or better date MS67RD when it was a known fact that PCGS was brutal on these coins? Let me refresh your memory in case you have forgotten - 1954-P MS67RD - about $20,000, misc. (common date) MS68RD coins $10,000 - $20,000, etc. IMHO, the same is starting to happen now with key date clad MS coins. It is just the beginning IMHO.
D. We still have a great % of contrarian collectors who hate post 1964 coinage. A 1969-P quarter in true MS67 - I know and Cladking knows and Russ knows and 50 other people know just how scarce and valuable that coin is. BUT, at the same time, 500 other classic collectors still have no idea (i.e. that the coin is probably a $5,000+ coin in true MS67 grade). As they begin to catch on, just watch what happens to prices!!
Is that enough for now to start the flaming?
Wondercoin >>
I certainly value you're opinion on Clad becoming hot, and am not discounting that.
What drives me crazy though is when someone states that "PCGS is as strict as they ever have been", and they are "brutal" on certain coins.
What the collector and market deserves is CONSISTENCY across the years, not a see-saw business model of gradflation than strict grading, and then repeat after a few years.
How they can keep their credibility doing this is beyond me.
regrade during gradeflation, then
sell!
Camelot
<< <i>But when the grading is strict
regrade during gradeflation, then
sell! >>
good for people that keep up with the "game", but for the majority of collectors they get hosed buying overgraded and overpriced stuff. Again, how they keep their credibility when this happens so often is beyond me.
<< <i>SanctionII: Here is what I base my opinion on:
A. The difference between noise and music - "timing" of course. The 1965-1990's Mint State clad coins are now "ripe". Enough time has passed. Coins that have remained very low pop over the past 5-10 years (even 20+ years of PCGS grading) have "proven themselves" in many collectors' eyes . >>
So basically you are saying condition rarity has finally been narrowed
down based on labels in plastic? That is what I am thinking. You are
hoping that plastic mania sets in and people ignore coins right below
that as unworthy compared to them.
Also how many rolls are sitting unopened? How many coins are just
sitting around from multi million coin mintages? No one can really answer
that accurately but there must be quite a few because people on this
very forum ooccasionally make pop 1 coins over the last years.
I think the majority of the dates are common but when you add plastic and labels you can turn what is common in BU into a crazy
nut house where people seek out things one point higher! My god..
paying huge multiples for one grade higher is like a modern dealers
wet dream in my mind.
I wonder how many dealers will be educating their clients that hey..
this MS68 XXX has 500 coins right below it. You better be very sure
you know what you are getting in to..
I doubt very few.
<< <i>B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days. >>
I can agree with this. Coin collecting is fun. Collecting moderns is a great
hobby. I can see this driving up prices in a reasonable slow fashion
over time, but to expect an explosion is wishful thinking and a modern
dealer's wet dream. Keys will have a chance to explode but the rest
is just spending money based on the plastic label's grade.
<< <i>C. PCGS is as strict as they ever have been (IMHO) on the grades on these coins. Remember what happened to 1934-date Wheat cents in MS68RD or better date MS67RD when it was a known fact that PCGS was brutal on these coins? Let me refresh your memory in case you have forgotten - 1954-P MS67RD - about $20,000, misc. (common date) MS68RD coins $10,000 - $20,000, etc. IMHO, the same is starting to happen now with key date clad MS coins. It is just the beginning IMHO. >>
1954P, hmm let me think about that. I often recall seeing BU rolls
for sale at antique stores let alone at a coin show. 20,000 for a common
date wheat cent that you can probably buy raw in BU for oh, 5 bucks? Such folly. Training coin collectors to think there is such great
value in trying to own what is known as PCGS's finest graded...
yay, you have a 68 wheat penny. You are 60 years old and cannot
even see it properly since your eyes are so bad. fun!
<< <i>D. We still have a great % of contrarian collectors who hate post 1964 coinage. A 1969-P quarter in true MS67 - I know and Cladking knows and Russ knows and 50 other people know just how scarce and valuable that coin is. BUT, at the same time, 500 other classic collectors still have no idea (i.e. that the coin is probably a $5,000+ coin in true MS67 grade). As they begin to catch on, just watch what happens to prices!!
Is that enough for now to start the flaming?
Here we go again using condition rarity as a selling point. Do not
mind the fact there is 1000s and 1000s of these coins in lower grades... fixate on owning the "finest known". This is the best example
we know of. You have to spend big bucks to pony up to the table
to own this beauty. For 10 bucks you can get one that is darn nice
but ignore that... you need this one. See!
flaming has started.
lets face it. i find the whole condition rarity thing in moderns to be
marketing. 1869P quarters are not even worth sending in unless they
are GEM BU. sigh. have fun!
here is what wondercoin would probably sell to you during the explosion.
kennedy half. 67 label. prob a 64-65 now days.
There are thousands of collectors brought in by the state quarter program etc. They are just starting out and will collect what they are familar with. Most will get distracted by other things that come up in life and stop collecting. Some will become more serious and go after certain series by year. Some of these collectors will seek to obtain the finest coin they can for each year. They will learn about the grading services and go after high grade coins.
They will hear from other collectors that "modern" coins are lurking out there in mint state by the truckful and shouldn't be bothered with. They will spend time, effort and money looking for certain years and not be able to find said truckful of MINT STATE coins that are HIGH GRADE.
Perversely, it will be when these clad collectors tell the "other collectors" that certain MS clad coins are rare in high grades and have a dedicated collector base with money to spend that we hear about crazy money someone spent on a ___. Without numerous roll collectors to provide fresh material and mint sets picked through, true gems will explode.
I agree with Wondercoin that the "other collectors" are catching on, maybe they read message boards?
This is my opinion, consider what you paid for it.
<< <i>
lets face it. i find the whole condition rarity thing in moderns to be
marketing. 1969P quarters are not even worth sending in unless they
are GEM BU. sigh. have fun!
>>
I'd challenge you to even come up with a nice choice MS-63 '69 quarter in a week. It needs
to be reasonably well struck and not heavily marked. No chicken scratching around the peri-
phery though.
You won't find one nor will you find a BU roll even if you had the contacts.
It wasn't too hard a few years ago because all you really need is access to ten or twelve mint
sets but finding this number of mint sets isn't so easy any longer.
<< <i>
<< <i>
lets face it. i find the whole condition rarity thing in moderns to be
marketing. 1969P quarters are not even worth sending in unless they
are GEM BU. sigh. have fun!
>>
I'd challenge you to even come up with a nice choice MS-63 '69 quarter in a week. It needs
to be reasonably well struck and not heavily marked. No chicken scratching around the peri-
phery though.
You won't find one nor will you find a BU roll even if you had the contacts.
It wasn't too hard a few years ago because all you really need is access to ten or twelve mint
sets but finding this number of mint sets isn't so easy any longer. >>
I mentioned wheat pennies from the 50s as being common in rolls.
not the 1869P quarters.
but just go look at the pops for these coins. a MS60 is worth what?
a few dollars? You can easily find one or two examples of a date/mint
that has a respectable chance of being extremely tough and it seems
the 69P is the one we discuss most often.
If they are so valuable and great why don't people bother submit them then? Why do i not see in NGC pops a ton of 58s and 60-61s
that people were hoping to get a 63?
because it is not worth the time. It has to be a TOP POP otherwise
it is common.
Sure i picking on the 69P is hardly the best example and i am bound
to lose on this particular date/mint. But lets face it, for most my comments
are spot on.
plus, you give me a weeks time? gee. wow. real tough... ;-)
i imagine in a few months I could have a few choices... wooooo
<< <i>and what might be items to search for before JQ public wakes up?
Thanks
Rob >>
If a mass market were to develop then you'd see all sorts of things
going crazy. It wouldn't just be the scarce coins like '82-P in MS-65
it would be just about anything in chU and better. No, a '70-P dime
won't go from 20c to $40 but you couldn't find a coin like this if there
were any real demand.
But it's not just going to be "plastic" that's exploding. The high grade
coins would do well all the way down to VF on a lot of moderns. Scar-
cities like the clad quarter reverse varieties and all the tougher dates
would have to ratchet higher.
Today, a lot of these coins are even hard to find all worn out in circu-
lation. What's going to happen to the prices of the uncs when there
are fewer than a hundred thousand in existence?
Regarding the "strictness" issue- please "don't shoot the messenger." Look, it is common knowledge that fresh (not picked through) "rattlers" can grade a point or even two points higher today in a variety of classic coin series - agreed? This is generally without dispute from those who have been on the slab scene since 1986. So, why is it at all disturbing that the very opposite might be possible in the case of MS moderns from the 1960's to 1990's graded over the past 3 years or so? Everyone accepts rattlers can be fertile ground for easy upgrades today. So, all I am pointing out is (IMHO) that MS modern holders from the past few years are comparable to the rattlers of yesteryear - just in a "flip flopped" manner. The coins are spectacular for the grade in a great many instances IMHO. You can decide if that is good or bad - I simply commented on my observation.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
I mentioned wheat pennies from the 50s as being common in rolls.
not the 1869P quarters.
but just go look at the pops for these coins. a MS60 is worth what?
a few dollars? You can easily find one or two examples of a date/mint
that has a respectable chance of being extremely tough and it seems
the 69P is the one we discuss most often.
If they are so valuable and great why don't people bother submit them
then? Why do i not see in NGC pops a ton of 58s and 60-61s that peo-
ple were hoping to get a 63?
because it is not worth the time. It has to be a TOP POP otherwise
it is common.
Sure i picking on the 69P is hardly the best example and i am bound
to lose on this particular date/mint. But lets face it, for most my comments
are spot on.
plus, you give me a weeks time? gee. wow. real tough... ;-)
i imagine in a few months I could have a few choices... wooooo >>
In a vacuum your comments are spot on. But coins don't exist in a vacuum, they exist on a continuum.
There are easy ones and hard ones. There common ones and rare ones. But there are also ones that
were made in huge quantity but simply don't survive. People quit saving and colllecting coins in 1964
so they are pretty much all gone except those saved inadvertantly like the mint sets. None of the coins
appearing in mint sets will be rare but many coins don't appear in the sets and, in many cases, almost
all mint set coins are junk.
To a collector of the moderns it doesn't matter if it looks to you that he is collecting plastic or is the ulti-
mate fool. He's simply seeking to complete a collection and when there are thousands of such collect-
ors seeking hundreds of coins you're going to see fireworks. It's really the same thing in a mass market
but on a lesser scale. Most of the clad exists in unc in lower quantities than the '50-D nickel. People
tend to mock this coin and say how it was once a $200 (in '08 dollars), but often neglect to see it's a $20
coin today.
CK - Did you ever publish that list?
Wondercoin
<< <i>I made a list of ten or twelve things that would all have to occur before moderns took off.
CK - Did you ever publish that list?
Wondercoin >>
No. Hell, I don't even remember them any longer.
<< <i>This is a great discussion, everyone. Except for nickels and Kennedys, I do not collect modern clad coins, but I think the potential for truly interesting collecting is terrific. I'd love to see thousands of collectors enter this market--and yes, drive up prices on the best coins. I think it would be great for collecting as a whole, because it would keep the average collector searching through pocket change. >>
Pocket change will be almost the sole source for many of the more interesting coins.
These coins are all worn now so a lot of these will be scarce in nice shape. Frankly,
I find it more exciting to think what effect all the looking will have on the pocket change
itself. Velocity will increase and the coins with the lowest turn over will be most affected.
Circulation is like a big coin grinder and millions of people looking for coins will just crank
it up to high speed.
I suspect that when the statehood quarters ends will trigger new interest in the clad quarters.
The clad dimes and halves will have to wait a bit longer since no major design change is involved.
collector base in the coming years.
Because these coins have very high original mintages and still exist in mint sets and original rolls (some in
bag quantities) to varying degrees, the grade/value issue is practically an "all or nothing" theme, i.e.
a certain coin may bring a surprisingly high price in the ultimate grade whereas in merely choice BU it isn't
even worth the TPG's grading fee. The pop reports will show increases in top grades when someone
finds the "right" roll and submits several superb examples while other issues' populations remain little
changed since few or none are found (and recognized by a knowing person.)
I continue to submit (no pun intended) that modern clad circ strike coinage are a part of numismatic history
of the U.S. and some collectors want to own the best available examples of their favored series. They
will compete for the tough top-grade issues and bid accordingly.
Considering the time/effort and money to find and encapsulate the right coins, it'll take a seemingly high
price to give a submitter incentive to sell such coins as well.
<< <i>B. The collector base is growing for these coins - we no longer have 3 or 4 guys collecting MS Kennedy half Dollars or post-1965 Jefferson nickels, etc., etc. We have many, many guys looking for these great, low pop, 1965-1990's coins, INCLUDING THE YEAR SET COLLECTORS - a key component to the strong demand these days. >>
Sorry, but Mitch is all wet behind the ears on this one! No one in their right mind collects Kennedy half dollars, they are "Ugly"
If you are thinking about collecting, go with the Early Commemoratives, Franklins or Walkers - don't waste your time or money chasing those stupid Kennedy coins.
In the meantime, here is a question for cladking.
1970 D halves were in the mint sets only. Many were cut up for the halves. Does that make the other denominations scarcer or more common? I would imagine quarters would be the most unpopular initially. I know some dealers seem to have considerable quantities of 1970 mint set quarters. By far most 1970 D mint set quarters were IIIm. It is possible to find others including doubled dies in mint sets. Do you think the otherwise ordinary 1970 D IIIb might be worth a premium someday?
My 1970 D circulation census was:
IIIb 84.3%
IIIm (M) 11.2 %
IIIb/m 4.4% !
IIb (B) 0.1%
In case anybody else is wondering what the heck I am talking about, perhaps cladking can throw in a real live link to my 1970 D thread..
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=627990&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1970 d cut and paste version
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907&highlight_key=y simplified pick up points
It was my thought years ago they would move back, not sideways so to speak. However, I am reevaluating that thought as time moves on. It is an empirical issue that will be tested in the coming years.
I have no vested interest in either outcome, just interest. High grade moderns (high being MS67 in some cases for clad coins) are a very specialized collecting area, but certainly dont deserve the bashing they take from some folks who are narrow minded.
<< <i>This has been a very interesting discussion. I predict clad coins will take off. I base this on the fact I collect them. Every other series I have ever collected have taken off to the point I can no longer affford them.
In the meantime, here is a question for cladking.
1970 D halves were in the mint sets only. Many were cut up for the halves. Does that make the other denominations scarcer or more common? I would imagine quarters would be the most unpopular initially. I know some dealers seem to have considerable quantities of 1970 mint set quarters. By far most 1970 D mint set quarters were IIIm. It is possible to find others including doubled dies in mint sets. Do you think the otherwise ordinary 1970 D IIIb might be worth a premium someday?
My 1970 D circulation census was:
IIIb 84.3%
IIIm (M) 11.2 %
IIIb/m 4.4% !
IIb (B) 0.1%
In case anybody else is wondering what the heck I am talking about, perhaps cladking can throw in a real live link to my 1970 D thread.. >>
link 1
link 2 with simplified pickup points
What is really interesting is that, thus far, the replies have been thoughtful, informational and intellectual without any flames.
Where is the fun, excitement and agitiation that goes along with the flames
Maybe the flames will show up later today.
How about fans of moderns changing the presentation of the never ending debate on the forums from "classics v. moderns" to "moderns v. classics"
It's difficult to be certain what will result from all the cutting of the '70 mint set. Very
large numbers of these were destroyed early on and a few of the coins survive. This
survival will work strongly against the sharply reduced populations. So many may have
survived because of two factors; most of the coins in this set are nice quality and the
sets were destroyed in such large batches that saving the coins seemed a natural.
The regular '70-D quarter roll is one of the more common of the early clad quarters.
Probably nearly 100,000 coins were saved in rolls. This is much easier to understand
since there was a massive quality improvement in 1970. You couldn't tell on a lot of
the Philly issues but almost all the Denvers were better.
Circulation Philly issues aren't so commonly seen any longer but the Denvers are easily
located. They are invarible heavily worn with the finest likely seen as F and the finest
in collections in VF.
The demand for varieties is likely largely the result of high mintages since collectors al-
ways desire both quality and rarity and regular issue coins since 1934 tend to be com-
mon. Initially only the scarcest varieties will have a lot of price pressure because the
number of collectors is still small and the mintages were huge. But as time goes on more
collectors will mean more demand. Those with their varieties from pocket change will
want to try to upgrade and these will all come under more stress. Even "common" mint
set varieties will remain available since the sets are not going to all disappear for dec-
ades. It might seem like they disappeared when demand exceeds supply but they'll
still be available for a price.
Wondercoin
When coins are almost 50 years old, they are
no longer modern Cr*p. At this rate, pretty
soon, Wondercoin may well be considered a
Classical Coin Dealer.
Camelot
I can't get over how some would spend the finest example of a coin, it is short sighted. I do understand how some can't grasp the money spent on these but you only need to start searching to find out what it really takes. How much is your time worth?
<< <i>Not only will it happen, it is already happening. >>
I agree with this, although I think "modern crap" will stick.
<< <i>The 1969-P, 1971-P and 1973-P are spectacularly difficult quarters to locate in true MS67 grade (and probably in that order). Add to that the 1983-P to name just -4- "killer" clad quarters that should shatter price records when and if MS67 coin(s) are ever offered for public sale. The quarters should do very well along with the MS kennedys and nickels I previously mentioned.
Wondercoin >>
The '71 is relatively easy inm high grade compared to these others but
the '71 in high grade is usually more like MS-66. The '73 is the only one
of these "easy" in gem.
<< <i>The 1969-P, 1971-P and 1973-P are spectacularly difficult quarters to locate in true MS67 grade (and probably in that order). Add to that the 1983-P to name just -4- "killer" clad quarters that should shatter price records when and if MS67 coin(s) are ever offered for public sale. The quarters should do very well along with the MS kennedys and nickels I previously mentioned.
Wondercoin >>
I still believe the '82-P in true gem with a solid strike from new dies will prove the most difficult of all the non-variety clads.
<< <i>The 1969-P, 1971-P and 1973-P are spectacularly difficult quarters to locate in true MS67 grade (and probably in that order). Add to that the 1983-P to name just -4- "killer" clad quarters that should shatter price records when and if MS67 coin(s) are ever offered for public sale. The quarters should do very well along with the MS kennedys and nickels I previously mentioned.
Wondercoin >>
So I should send in my 1983-P QTR in MS67 to PCGS and watch the money roll in?
P.S. I am serious......at least I think I still have it...fingers crossed
Wondercoin
For that matter, are post-64 nickels as tough as dimes and quarters in higher grades?
<< <i>Hey, where do you guys weigh-in on the whole Full Steps discussion. With the elitist buying trends toward top-pop and all that, is it worth it to collect high-grade nickels that are not FS? Or are all the non-FS nickels going to be left in the dust? >>
It depends a lot on the date for these. FS and full strike sometmes have a negative correlation
and some dates come all banged up. There will be spillover demand into non-FS nickels across
the board but some are fairly common in nice condition.
<< <i>
For that matter, are post-64 nickels as tough as dimes and quarters in higher grades? >>
The supply of post-'64 nickels is very very spotty. Many of the date/ mm's are very common but
others are nearly as scarce as the clads. Nickels may be even tougher than Ikes in the very high-
est grades. It seems there's always something wrong with each specimen. Ikes usually each
have multiple little problems even when they're nice, the nickels seem to usually have a major
flaw. Recent dates can be found nice but some earlier dates since '64 may not even exist in tru-
ly superb condition.
<< <i>I challenge to the FC's of the world to name something THEY have contributed to the hobby that will endure for 200 years? Nothing? For me saving the finest of the day, our modern, is something that 100 years from now will mean something, when coinage was a thing of the past and everything was melted down due to inflation of all metals. Personally I have made many top pops in a variety of series, some of top POPs were only made by me. I take pride in that and I did do something that will impact the hobby for 100+ years. What have you done?
I can't get over how some would spend the finest example of a coin, it is short sighted. I do understand how some can't grasp the money spent on these but you only need to start searching to find out what it really takes. How much is your time worth? >>
these top pops you made. are they like the kennedy 67 we saw a few
days ago graded during pcgs very liberal time frame?
the more i learn about this hobby and plastic/labels is that most of
what i see is not what it seems to be. especially moderns.
fbl anyone? full steps? top pops that were graded during a liberal time
frame if cracked out today and regraded would take multi point drops?
who is fooling who?
on the other hand i applaud you for trying to locate the best you
possibly can for storage and future collectors to enjoy!
I've been going through bank rolls of nickels fairly often and believe that the coin counting machines are just destroying huge quantities of these that might otherwise be collectable. It seems almost criminal the way they are chewed up. That's going to make even tougher to put together a nice set.
that I receive since they currently do not bring commensurate prices for the time and money involved in
getting PCGS to cooperate. I actually like these coins along with any truly MS-66/+ clad Ike Dollar.
<< <i>
these top pops you made. are they like the kennedy 67 we saw a few
days ago graded during pcgs very liberal time frame?
>>
Coins aren't really graded, they are priced.
That Kennedy has some pretty remarkabkle attributes that many collectors
value very highly still.
Since moderns tend to have a lot fewer of the confounding grading charact-
eristics than the older coins, this is a very weak argument against them. In-
deed, if you're worried about changing grading standards you should flee
classics completely.
But as no one tires of pointing out collectors should buy the coin rather than
the plastic anyway.
Checked this thread again and found more civil, erudite, discussion of the topic. Way Cool. No flaming yet. This thread gets better and better.
I have no clue when, if ever, modern clad coinage will come of age as collectible coins. However, I still really like the idea of collectors devoting time and effort to locate, acquire and preserve high quality examples of these coins for themselves and ergo future generations of collectors. Though minted in huge numbers the reality is that which CladKing tells us regularly. Specifically these coins were not saved in any significant amount and many of these coins were of low quality when made. Put these two factors together and you have a situation where high quality specimens of these coins are few and far between. Collectors who by luck and/or hard work have acquired some of these high quality coins [raw or slabbed] are very fortunate to have them. They may reap financial reward on these coins in the future and even if they do not so reap, they will be thanked for their forsight and efforts by generations of future collectors.
Further, there a facet of collecting high quality coins from circulation for face value (or buying the same coins in the market place for little over face value) that is great fun, in many ways more fun than other aspect of the hobby.
Keep up the discussion folks.
Is there a better chance of finding early gems in rolls/bags rather than in the crappy MSs that were being offered then?
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Is there a better chance of finding early gems in rolls/bags rather than in the crappy MSs that were being offered then?
Regards, John"
John: Superb gem (MS67) quality specimens are difficult to locate - in fact, the 1965 quarter is surprisingly difficult. MS65 / MS66 are much easier to locate in rolls. Very few sealed bags exist (of any dated clad quarters throughout the entire series perhaps other than 1976 and 1998 and one or two other dates). The coins simply do not exist in fresh BU bag quantity I believe - only Mint Set coins basically.
Wondercoin
Thanks for the info. I have a few OBW (I believe) rolls of the early dated quarters that I haven't opened. I'm always on the lookout for them at shows, B&Ms & on ebay. The quarter's strike quality in Mint Sets, from my limited experience, seemed to make a step improvement around 1978 or so. Is this the case, or is it my imagination?
One more question (or maybe two). Have all Mint Sets in dealer stock & at shows already been searched & re-searched, or can one still cherrypick a gem (MS-65+)? Would NGC pops give one an idea of whats scarce? Are there any books or websites on the early clads?
Attending a small show this weekend and was wondering if it is even worth the time to search the 1968-78 sets. What about 1980 & later MSs?
I think that I could really get into collecting/saving these if there are still quantities of MS-65+ nickels, dimes, & quarters out there to be found in MSs or rolls as my coin buying funds have been very limited lately.
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>
Thanks for the info. I have a few OBW (I believe) rolls of the early dated quarters that I haven't opened. I'm always on the lookout for them at shows, B&Ms & on ebay. The quarter's strike quality in Mint Sets, from my limited experience, seemed to make a step improvement around 1978 or so. Is this the case, or is it my imagination?
One more question (or maybe two). Have all Mint Sets in dealer stock & at shows already been searched & re-searched, or can one still cherrypick a gem (MS-65+)? Would NGC pops give one an idea of whats scarce? Are there any books or websites on the early clads?
Attending a small show this weekend and was wondering if it is even worth the time to search the 1968-78 sets. What about 1980 & later MSs?
I think that I could really get into collecting/saving these if there are still quantities of MS-65+ nickels, dimes, & quarters out there to be found in MSs or rolls as my coin buying funds have been very limited lately.
There have been a lot of changes in the design of the clad quarter and the overall
quality over the years. The most dramatic was 1970 probably but there was a small
one in '78. The '77 had a little flatter relief on the obverse and few were fully struck.
It's still a wonder how few of the mint sets are picked over. Generally the bad qual-
ity is related to the fact that this is the way they were made. This is probably caused
by a tendency for the sets to be simply cut up rather than searched. Mint sets at coin
shows are much more likely to be picked over though. There are a lot of collectors who
need some coins and might check a dealer's stock for nice ones. If a dealer sells most
of his sets at retail then they will get picked over in time. Even here though, most buy-
ers are looking for specific coins and won't disturb other varieties and gems.
The NGC pops do seem to have a pretty good correlation with the availability of the coins.
I suspect the later dates might be a little underrepresented because they haven't had a
chance to be located yet but these really are tough. Later dates are very proof like but
they tend to have a lot of trouble with marking. Some dates are overrepresented. The
1976 issues really are easier than most but these are heavily submitted because of the
large number of raw coins and the activity of type collectors.
There are no books or websites to my knowledge that can give you much reliable inform-
ation about the availability of the early gem quarters. There are a few noncomprehensive
sources for variety information but nothing for gems.