Is 4SC running the value of modern PSA 10s into the ground?

jhpfunk

After selling off most of my pre-70's (PSA 8 and below) vintage, I've started to craft my strategy for my PSA 9s and 10s. I've been checking VCP and have been amazed by how many of the same PSA 10 cards 4 Sharp Corners puts up for auction in a row...and sometimes dropping auctions on top of each other. It seems like over the last year there have been even more than in years past. As you scan the VCP listings you can watch each card's value drop incrementally with every piggybacked sale. I know that there's a lot of talk about 4SC and how bad they are for this or that. I'm not looking to open up that can of worms. I have no beef with them as a buyer and continue to purchase cards from them on a reguilar basis (just for less $ these days). But how does a company like that not notice that they're killing off the value of their (and everyone else's) inventory by rapid fire sales of the identical graded card? A lot of the 70's/80s HOFer PSA 10s that I have are worth far less than when I bought them 2-3 years ago. It seems like if they spaced them out they could make so much more and not drill these cards values into the ground.

ndleo

4SC is probably more concerned about cash flow rather than maximizing profit per card. If they can slab a PSA 10 and sell it before they have to pay the cash out, they are basically making profit on someone elses cash.

gosteelers

jhpfunk,
Is that Kevin Saucier in your icon? I think he posts on these boards...

fandango

good post ....

4SC should be a bit smarter if they have 4 PSA 10's of the same card....why piggyback them, i hate when i see that...

they are selling constantly, so just hold off until a few weeks to sell the same PSA 10..HOW HARD IS THAT>?

maybe they dont care what is sells for, they make their money on shipping anyway....

jhpfunk

Why yes. That is the allmighty Saucier. No way he's on the board.

11235813

No.

It's the fact that modern cards were overproduced and are therefore are easy to find even in PSA 10 that is running their prices into the ground. Supply of modern PSA 10's is pretty much endless due to how much product was produced.

WinPitcher

Whatever they are doing they are doing it right..........right for them I guess.


Steve

jhpfunk

I certainly respect all of the opinions expressed. They must know what they're doing to some extent. But if they spaced the cards out by 4-8 weeks, it seems like they'd get and extra buck or too and not rapidly drive the value of these cards into the toilet. It's crazy to watch the values drop, auction after auction. I would also agree that a lot these cards were oveproduced and that will lead to more and more PSA 10s being graded (and demand lessened), but the clustering of their own auctions seems to be yet another strong catalyst in the cards' descent. I look at the auctions for 70's/80's Kellogg's HOFers, early 80's issues..staggering.

digicat

I don't think that 4sc pays attention to what they list. They just list it and see if it sales.

I've seen odd cases where they have two copies of a PSA 10 listed, one with a $6 bin (because no one bought it for the 4 previous listings), and another for $30 as the starting bid.

larryallen73

I think 4sc is in business to make money. It apparently works for them so I imagine they will continue doing what they are doing. If they were not doing it then somebody else would be.

I don't think they carefully track exactly what is for sale when. I think they list stuff on the Bay as fast as they can.

Though they might be able to make more money on an individual card sale by spacing it out I don't think they are ruining the value of cards. They are just one player in the industry. In total the percentage of cards sold I bet 4sc is not a huge percentage. I doubt they are 1% in fact. The thing that is ruining the value of modern PSA 10's is simply supply and demand. There is a LOT of supply and not a lot of demand.

Just this morning I was out running with my buddy. Have been good buddies since first grade (1975). We collected a ton of cards together as kids. He got out of the hobby and never got back into it BUT he still has his entire collection sitting in his attic. He has never looked for cards to grade (sets from '67 through early 80's) and said he found about 30 unopened boxes (mostly from the 80's) that he forgot he had.

I think there is more supply to come, from people like my friend, and I don't think demand is keeping up with the supply.

HighChopper

I've seen odd cases where they have two copies of a PSA 10 listed, one with a $6 bin (because no one bought it for the 4 previous listings), and another for $30 as the starting bid.

Good observation.

I did pick up a card for $4 from 4SC a few months back. Not more than a week later the same card, same grade was listed BIN for $30.

scooter729

<< <i>Why yes. That is the allmighty Saucier. No way he's on the board. >>



Same name, but different Saucier, I believe.

jhpfunk

I would agree that they are just listing and not checking. I do think that they are one of the major players in the graded modern card game and are directly affecting the values of certain cards.

NickM

4SC is running the price of modern PSA 10s into the ground, not their value. Beyond the first few collectors (usually player collectors), most of these cards have no significant value.

And scooter is right - Kevin Saucier (onlychild) is not the former Tigers pitcher. He is a great guy though.

Nick

smtjoy

4SC is out to make money and really has little concern for what a card is valued after they sell it. To be honest all high grade pop reports are on the rise, even more so for the 1970-2000's sets so why wait to sell a card when another dealer might beat you to market and get the higher price, also the comment about cash flow is very true. I just feel the vast majority of graded cards from mass produced sets will go down in value over time so sell now for the highest price.

mexisar

<< <i>4SC is running the price of modern PSA 10s into the ground, not their value. Beyond the first few collectors (usually player collectors), most of these cards have no significant value.

And scooter is right - Kevin Saucier (onlychild) is not the former Tigers pitcher. He is a great guy though.

Nick >>


They also now offer second change offers to try to maximize the price, I always decline because I know the card will go back for auction and I will get it cheaper

saucywombat

Lets face it the prices paid for Gem Mint modern cards is way out of line with reality. Should a card that books raw for $3 (or .25 for that matter) really command $60, $30 or even $10 in Gem Mint shape? Paying those prices is only for an eccentric few. I think the amount of money to be made by finding the first few 10's of any given player and/or set will soon come to an end because of the increasing supply and limited demand - especially for commons who are only of interest to Registry Set builders.

Prices will continue to decrease - guaranteed.

clayshooter22

FWIW,

I used to buy modern bulk type for my Puckett set from them. It made sense to buy a $0.25 common at $10 in PSA 10, not because of the value but because its gonna cost me $6-7 to grade my common and I only get about 50% PSA 10 when I'm grading modern bulk. So, its simply cheaper to buy each at $6-10 than sub at $6 and get 50% results.

mikeschmidt

4SC is happy with their business model and they have continually (over the last 7-8 years) shown that they can do well with their business model. Although there are many that may critique or advise tweaks to their model....it works for them, independent of what it does for the market as a whole or specific collectors within that market.

Marc

ldferg

seems like every time i crack a box to submit a few for grading, 4sc does the same one...lol

bigreddog

The GEM MINT 10 is the most ridiculously overhyped, overpriced thing in the hobby. They are simply bought for silly premiums to help the egos of Registy people feel they have a better card than those with 9's. It always amazes me that so many people are suckered by the PSA 10 Scam.

Leiascards

Selling more than one item of the same at the same time does not always guarantee a lesser price, in fact many cases it is totally opposite. Last week I had 3 identical items ending Saturday night. The first sold for 28.75 the BIN on it and the others was 22.99 and they ended with no bids. I sent and SCO to the top 2 underbidders and one accepted, the other got relisted and is already over the BIN price.

4SC model though is based on pure volume, if they make 2.00 on a card they consider it a success.

fandango

<< <i>The GEM MINT 10 is the most ridiculously overhyped, overpriced thing in the hobby. They are simply bought for silly premiums to help the egos of Registy people feel they have a better card than those with 9's. It always amazes me that so many people are suckered by the PSA 10 Scam. >>



guess you dont have a very good grading eye bigred....

because when i look at 2 high end cards, you can see which one is a PSA 9 (one tiny minor flaw) and which is the PSA 10 (no flaws seen)

its not rocket science.....dont be a hater toward a perfect card please....they do exist and they get the PSA 10

maybe the reason 4SC gets so many tens is because they submitt the most cards, thus they will have more "perfect" cards than someone who only submits 25 cards....

JasP24

<< <i>The GEM MINT 10 is the most ridiculously overhyped, overpriced thing in the hobby. They are simply bought for silly premiums to help the egos of Registy people feel they have a better card than those with 9's. It always amazes me that so many people are suckered by the PSA 10 Scam. >>



So what you're saying is, collectors SHOULD instead buy into the PSA 9 scam? I mean what's the difference between a PSA 9 and a PSA 8? Or a PSA 8 and a PSA 7, etc, etc, etc. If you own the highest graded card you can afford, that means it is only to stroke the ego of the Registry people?

I'm a Registry guy now, but wasn't always. I was trying to collect the best examples of each card possible before the Registry was invented. It's all about what you want to collect. If you are happy with EX-MT cards from the 80's, then have at it. Personally, I want the best looking, highest grade examples I can afford. Does that mean all PSA 10's look better than all PSA 9's? Absolutely not. But you could say the same, one grade up or down, about any of the grades 1-10.

They are only overpriced if you pay more than you are comfortable paying. Each of us can decide what a particular card is worth to us and bid or buy accordingly. If you are paying more because of rarity, you better be informed on that particular set. Sometimes rarity is only because a particular card hasn't been sent into PSA often, not that they are actually hard to find raw. There are examples of modern PSA 10's which are very tough to come by (1993-1997 SP FOIL football in PSA 10 as an example).

Jason

bman90278

<< <i> After selling off most of my pre-70's (PSA 8 and below) vintage, I've started to craft my strategy for my PSA 9s and 10s. I've been checking VCP and have been amazed by how many of the same PSA 10 cards 4 Sharp Corners puts up for auction in a row...and sometimes dropping auctions on top of each other. It seems like over the last year there have been even more than in years past. As you scan the VCP listings you can watch each card's value drop incrementally with every piggybacked sale. I know that there's a lot of talk about 4SC and how bad they are for this or that. I'm not looking to open up that can of worms. I have no beef with them as a buyer and continue to purchase cards from them on a reguilar basis (just for less $ these days). But how does a company like that not notice that they're killing off the value of their (and everyone else's) inventory by rapid fire sales of the identical graded card? A lot of the 70's/80s HOFer PSA 10s that I have are worth far less than when I bought them 2-3 years ago. It seems like if they spaced them out they could make so much more and not drill these cards values into the ground. >>



I'm sure they are not worried about the value of each card. I know as a former GM of a multi-million dollar company that steady cash flow and profit percentages based off the total volume is what they want. They don't look at the profit amount of each card.

Leiascards

Most people cannot tell the difference in a card graded an 8 and a card graded a 10. I have been playing the game for several years now and even I cannot see it sometimes.

Leiascards

I'm sure they are not worried about the value of each card. I know as a former GM of a multi-million dollar company that steady cash flow and profit percentages based off the total volume is what they want. They don't look at the profit amount of each card.

That is excatly their business plan, this is the reason why sellers on Ebay can afford to start graded cards at below the grading costs. You send in 100 cards at 6.00 each. Thats 600.00 you have another 400.00 in the product. 10 of those cards come back as low pop 10s and you sell them for total of 2000.00. At this point everything else is gravy after Ebay and Paypal fees you have already made close to 900.00 on this sub anything else is just added to that 900.00. This is actually a strategy I am trying to work myself to slowly.

hofautos

I took a sneak peek, It looks like a great deal of what he lists doesn't even sell, and it seems like most of what he is selling is commons...if he can sell them, good for him. I do agree it doesn't make much sense to list several of the same card, unless they are on consinement. If they don't sell, then he may make a low offer to the consignee and relist them later and realize more....just a guess.

hofautos

<< <i>Most people cannot tell the difference in a card graded an 8 and a card graded a 10. I have been playing the game for several years now and even I cannot see it sometimes. >>



Sometimes difficult between a 9 and a 10, but i don't think i would ever have any difficulty telling the difference between an 8 and a 10, unless the grader was having a bad day...

NCDOLFAN

<< <i>Most people cannot tell the difference in a card graded an 8 and a card graded a 10. I have been playing the game for several years now and even I cannot see it sometimes. >>

Nothing that a 10x loupe won't take care of.

larryallen73

It's all about what you want to collect.

Totally agree.

I personally don't want to spend money on PSA 10's and, in fact, I sell all PSA 10's I receive as I am happy with 8's and 9's. However, there are others who think the whole grading thing is a scam and I think they have a good point too. Collect what you like for whatever reasons you like.

hofautos

<< <i>It's all about what you want to collect.

Totally agree.

I personally don't want to spend money on PSA 10's and, in fact, I sell all PSA 10's I receive as I am happy with 8's and 9's. However, there are others who think the whole grading thing is a scam and I think they have a good point too. Collect what you like for whatever reasons you like. >>



With me, i would prefer the highest grade within my budget...they will be the one's that appreciate the most ...if a 10 is $20, and a 9 is $10, i would much prefer the 10....on the other hand if a 9 is $200 and a 10 is $2000, I will stick with the 9 (grin).

Leiascards

<< <i>

<< <i>Most people cannot tell the difference in a card graded an 8 and a card graded a 10. I have been playing the game for several years now and even I cannot see it sometimes. >>

Nothing that a 10x loupe won't take care of. >>



Even with a 10X loupe the differences are usually very subtle. I use both a 10 and 12X and sometimes you have to dig and dig for the flaw that bumped it down.

yankeeno7

Anything only carries the value of what it can sell for. Running values into the ground? I dont think so. It's the market, good or bad. Sports cards don't always go by basic economics. The difference in selling prices can make someone scratch their head. If you ask me, most times its luck if you sell high.

fandango

<< <i>Most people cannot tell the difference in a card graded an 8 and a card graded a 10. I have been playing the game for several years now and even I cannot see it sometimes. >>




THATS TOO BAD...maybe you need glasses......i feel the exact opposite

a psa 8 will have white on a corner or 2, a psa 10 will have no white and be near perfect...

show me a psa 10 with white showing on the front...i have not seen one...

again, its not rocket science.....

seriously you may need glasses if you cant see the difference between a 8 and 10....especially when you hold the card in your hand...

looking at a scan on ebay may be hard to tell, but when you have it in front of you.....

NCDOLFAN

<< <i>The GEM MINT 10 is the most ridiculously overhyped, overpriced thing in the hobby. They are simply bought for silly premiums to help the egos of Registy people feel they have a better card than those with 9's. It always amazes me that so many people are suckered by the PSA 10 Scam. >>

OK so wait a minute... You obviously are a set owner and assumably on the registry. If you purchased raw cards or packs let's say and you submitted the cards you liked for grading and one card came back PSA 10, WOULD YOU CRY SCAM and return the card to be down graded to a 9, or would you be proud of that card and happy to display it ? Cards are collected and graded for one reason or another and they mean different things to different people but on a financial level they are a commodity and grade and scarcity controls price. Same with coins. Ask a coin person if they could afford it, if they would rather have a ms-62 or a ms-65 grade on a specific coin. Just like a PSA 9 to a PSA 10 there is a significant price difference that relates to condition.

11235813

I think that part of the issue, which nobody has really dicussed, is the price spreads between grades. Should a PSA 10 sell for more than a PSA 9? Yes. Should a PSA 9 sell for more than a PSA 8? Yes. But should a PSA 10 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 9? Questionable. And should a PSA 9 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 8? Also questionable.

I don't think anybody would be that perturbed if modern PSA 10's were selling for only 2x PSA 9's and modern PSA 9's were selling for only 2x PSA 8's, but the spread is usually much greater than that.....

fattymacs

Cards viewed for pleasure are done so at 18" or further, not really any difference between an 8 and 10. Cards viewed for investment are done so from very close distance w/ a loupe, the differences are many. My eyesight is 20-15.

Leiascards

Trust me I guarantee my eyesight is better than yours ever has been or ever will be. Its obvious yours is pretty bad since you CANNOT READ!!

I said MOST people cannot tell the difference. Then I said there are times that I cannot tell the difference SOMETIMES with my trained eyes. Sorry I thought most of the people here understood the English language.

Since you said you have NEVER seen a 10 with white I will try to show you one the best I can. It is a 2007 Chrome Xfractor Chien-Ming Wang.

You really cannot see it in the corner, but the lower right edge is chipped.

hofautos

<< <i>I think that part of the issue, which nobody has really dicussed, is the price spreads between grades. Should a PSA 10 sell for more than a PSA 9? Yes. Should a PSA 9 sell for more than a PSA 8? Yes. But should a PSA 10 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 9? Questionable. And should a PSA 9 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 8? Also questionable.

I don't think anybody would be that perturbed if modern PSA 10's were selling for only 2x PSA 9's and modern PSA 9's were selling for only 2x PSA 8's, but the spread is usually much greater than that..... >>



I dont understand why this debate keeps coming up...it's really very logical...
Like everything in life, cards will sell based on supply vs demand.
If there are 10,000 8s and 5 10's, and the people with deep pockets want the best possible grade, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about how they spend their money.

The more KEY the card is, and the more rare the card is in higher grades will determine how much more a higher grade will realize.

SUPPLY VS DEMAND (and since the rich get richer....your best bet is to buy the highest grade within your budget)

bobbybakeriv

<< <i>

<< <i>I think that part of the issue, which nobody has really dicussed, is the price spreads between grades. Should a PSA 10 sell for more than a PSA 9? Yes. Should a PSA 9 sell for more than a PSA 8? Yes. But should a PSA 10 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 9? Questionable. And should a PSA 9 sell for 3x-5x a PSA 8? Also questionable.

I don't think anybody would be that perturbed if modern PSA 10's were selling for only 2x PSA 9's and modern PSA 9's were selling for only 2x PSA 8's, but the spread is usually much greater than that..... >>



I dont understand why this debate keeps coming up...it's really very logical...
Like everything in life, cards will sell based on supply vs demand.
If there are 10,000 8s and 5 10's, and the people with deep pockets want the best possible grade, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about how they spend their money.

The more KEY the card is, and the more rare the card is in higher grades will determine how much more a higher grade will realize.

SUPPLY VS DEMAND (and since the rich get richer....your best bet is to buy the highest grade within your budget) >>



There you have it. I agree.

Also, it is really up to each buyer to decide what they want. Who cares if someone prefers 8s over 10s? Who cares if I try to get 10s? I am 100% collector and I have "bought in" to the PSA 10 game (when I can afford to). If others don't want to "play", more power to 'em. I don't let what others choose to do with their money bother me.

Leiascards

Personally I prefer vintage cards in the 4-7 range to me they just look better in general, more character. I do buy higher grade raw with the intent to flip, but for my personal collection I will take a 7 over a 10 anyday. Just my preference.

11235813

The thing is, the population of modern PSA 10's will do nothing but grow, which in theory will erode prices over time as supply and demand balance out. The only constraint on the supply of modern PSA 10's is how many people bother to submit modern cards in the hopes of getting lucky. There are probably millions of PSA 10 quality modern cards out there, most of which will never get submitted for grading.

JasP24

<< <i>The thing is, the population of modern PSA 10's will do nothing but grow, which in theory will erode prices over time as supply and demand balance out. The only constraint on the supply of modern PSA 10's is how many people bother to submit modern cards in the hopes of getting lucky. There are probably millions of PSA 10 quality modern cards out there, most of which will never get submitted for grading. >>



And in most cases, those PSA 10's are not selling for very high prices...How many non individually numbered/autod/game used type cards in PSA 10 are selling for astronomical prices on ebay? The only ones I know of are KNOWN condition sensitive/scare in the grade.

So what eroding prices are we talking about? Cards "eroding" from $50 to $15? Maybe it's worth it to the guy paying $50 to be one of the first to own the card in that grade? It's $35 not $3500 we are talking about here..An eroding price to me is something selling for $1,000 that eventually sells for $100. The small dollar cards are of little consequence to most collectors. They buy them because they like the card or need it for a set, none of the base issue modern cards are worthy of being called an investment.

Jason

Morgoth

Leiascards with the amount of altering of prewar you might be better off with 4-7's as those cards might be untouched so to speak where the 8's and 9's might have had some touch ups. Not saying noone every alters low grade cards but I am pretty suspicous of high grade T and E cards.

CDsNuts

Morgoth, you can say the same thing about 70s-90s PSA 10s.

hofautos

<< <i>.... none of the base issue modern cards are worthy of being called an investment.

Jason >>



For the most part, i agree, because there are few modern "base" cards that have a high demand, but who said anything about "base"...
i would opt for the most rare rookies of the best players in the highest grade possible for potential growth, but again, i suggest CD's, RE, or other avenues for investment, not baseball cards. That is not to say not to have fun collecting while doing your research in which cards are least likely to depreciate.

And as far as modern base, I think any of these are worth owning in a 10...

1980 rickey henderson
1982 ripken
1983 gwynn
1987 donruss maddux

but i personally would broaden to more than just base, to include tiffanys or any other more rare cards of the greats (e.g. 1989 bowman tiffany griffey)

hofautos

<< <i>Personally I prefer vintage cards in the 4-7 range to me they just look better in general, more character. I do buy higher grade raw with the intent to flip, but for my personal collection I will take a 7 over a 10 anyday. Just my preference. >>



Yea, if I had my choice, i would rather have a PSA 3 than a PSA 9 ...the 3 has more character...comeon...are you sure the price doesn't have something to do with your decision???

MeteoriteGuy

<< <i>Yea, if I had my choice, i would rather have a PSA 3 than a PSA 9 ...the 3 has more character...

>>




No question there......that PSA 3 is also about half the size.

hofautos

LOL!



<< <i>

<< <i>Yea, if I had my choice, i would rather have a PSA 3 than a PSA 9 ...the 3 has more character...
No question there......that PSA 3 is also about half the size. >>



>>

JasP24

<< <i>

And as far as modern base, I think any of these are worth owning in a 10...

1980 rickey henderson
1982 ripken
1983 gwynn
1987 donruss maddux

>>



All fairly inexpensive. POPs are already high on each of these as well, so IMO these will hold their value long term as the demand isn't due to scarcity, but rather popularity of the players. i don;t think these fall into the category of cards dropping in value due the mass grading by 4SC.

Jason