I wonder how the huge overhang of dipped out, washed up and lusterless uncirculated coins

Bear

Is impacting the prices of many series of coins.
I do not believe that the mountains of BU
Classic Commems, is composed of more then 10%
of original quality specimens.The rest of that 80%
either sits in stock or is heavily discounted . Thus it
tends to depress the value of the higher quality
specimens. It is also my opinion, that the same applies
to circulated condition coins. Good honest wear, verses
dip, dip , redip and scrub a dub tub.

adamlaneus

Perhaps the price depression of heavily cleaned, dipped and crust free coins you speak of is already there and has already been priced in, as many coin markets suffer from the 80% white (or yellow) issue. To get a nice original coin, you tend to have to pay a premium. This is all about what the 'sheet' says for the price of a typical coin. If the typical coin is the cleaned one, then the prices you speak of are already 'depressed', no?

Let me also post a crusty old coin:

SeaEagleCoins

Bear...what is going on? You've been single spacing your lines alot lately...

Seriously, though... it is hard to guess how many coins have been ruined by overdipping... and with all the squeamishness displayed recently by the major TPG's towards toned coins lately... many more may get dipped just to get them into the coveted plastic shells...

And I have been witness to harm being done...many an unseasoned collector thinks that if they can pick and choose from many molested coins at a discount...then why can't they get the same discount on an original beauty?? and they get angry when you try to explain it to them...

I suppose that was the original premise of that CAC outfit...to ID the original stuff...that is what I was told before the "big" ( yet blundered) announcement...
doesn't seem to have worked out that way...does it?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Emphasis on originality is something that tends to be extremely exaggerated here on the forums. Many collectors don't care much about originality, and just go for what's eye appealing. Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on.

stman

<< <i>Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



Ummm, yeah, if you say so. Yeah, those worked on coins with color might take a good picture..... can't see the problems etc. Get that baby in person and many are a hairlined mottled mess. But taking a good picture is important!

Bear

Perhaps then, we collectors ,should start buying the
picture instead of buying the coin. Would be a lot
cheaper.

foodude

At last year's MidAmerica show in Chicago a collector stopped by with a beautiful, original gold piece and was worried that something was wrong with it. He said he had compared it to other one or two gold pieces on similar type on the floor, and his looked different.

I told him I didn't see anything wrong with his coin, and in fact thought it was very nice. I told him to go over to so and so's table (someone I knew generally only carried originaly, problem-free gold)and compare his coin to the gold in that ser of cases.

DieClash

Some specimens may benefit. I'd love to see the lustreless, washed-out overdipped examples. I'm sure they exist but I must admit I can't say I've seen photographic evidence on these boards. Probably because those that possess them are not likely to post the images. So I say, "show me"! Look I'm not proud of this key-date disaster, but the dipping improved it IMHO. So let this thread become a photographic educational learning example for the inquiring minds among us. It's one thing to state a theory. Its quite another to back it up with tell-tale images. So my challenge to the OPs original post and everyone that follows is to back it up with lots o'images! Post 'em if you've got 'em

Original:


Dipped:

Shortgapbob

<< <i>Emphasis on originality is something that tends to be extremely exaggerated here on the forums. Many collectors don't care much about originality, and just go for what's eye appealing. Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



I agree. I recently had a collector looking through some nice, original commems at a show and he passed because they were not blast white like he liked. I told them that the coins could be made blast white, but that I would not do that and ruin the originality of the pieces.

Bear

Go to any coin show and the dead white coins are
stacked like silver mountains. I only hope that silver
goes to 100 dollars an ounce, so many of these dead
coins can be melted into ingots.

DieClash

Bear, I don't doubt you. I'm only asking for empirical evidence of the like that I have already posted. Not everyone can go to shows to witness the "dead white coins..stacked like silver mountains".




<< <i>Go to any coin show and the dead white coins are
stacked like silver mountains. I only hope that silver
goes to 100 dollars an ounce, so many of these dead
coins can be melted into ingots. >>

Frankcoins

Lower grade mint state coins can be overdipped, cleaned and lackluster. They will always receive a lower market grade from the
services than strictly original pieces, but are still attractive pieces that command good prices. Many collectors prefer an admittedly
dipped coin over a toned coin that may hide problems more severe than dipping.

NHSBaseball

Okay, I'll take the challenge! Here's one of my absolute favorite coins that has not been dipped- however it did get 8 points knocked off its grade when I had it holdered! :

This one went from AU58 NGC to AU50 PCGS. I really believe that if I dipped the coin it would come back higher- there is a lot of luster under the toning that I can't capture in the pics- but I just REALLY LIKE the coin as is. Feel free to disagree!

pursuitofliberty

Bear,

Thoughtful post ... deserving of a dozen jelly donuts!

I agree with the premise that these dipped, worked and otherwised impaired coins
hold down the PUBLISHED prices for that issue

These PUBLISHED prices then cause real world pricing to be difficult at best
except for the specialist who really knows the issue

But, even if the specialist prices it correctly, they need a buyer who agrees
and the buyer often reverts to the PUBLISHED pricing models

I can list more than a few coins that if original and attractive could not be had
at least not for anywhere near PUBLISHED prices

As an example, I read a post earlier about how far the graysheet was off ...
The issue in question was a 1909-O Barber Quarter that is garnering some heavy interest on the 'bay
Now this is a rare issue no matter ... but an unmolested EF coin for this issue is almost never available
A cleaned lifeless piece might only warrant a greysheet ask (or maybe 30% + due to rarity and bull tendencies)???
But an unmolested piece ... it will go for multiples, and if the buyer understands what they are getting
they will probably be very, very happy

The funny thing is (not really funny, but you understand I hope, and I'm sure I'm telling YOU nothing new) ...
is that once these coins sell (these great, original examples), often times the garbage comes out
and someone (usually someone not quite fully informed) pays up for the cra* because they're
looking at the AUCTION REALIZED prices, and thinking that the issue has advanced a lot
and the PUBLISHED prices are not keeping up

But no specialist wants to raise his buy prices, because they know the cra* is out there
and they aren't going to offer more than the LOWWEST piece of shi* that they know of in that grade is worth

... and so the PUBLISHED prices don't change

Coxe

<< <i>Emphasis on originality is something that tends to be extremely exaggerated here on the forums. Many collectors don't care much about originality, and just go for what's eye appealing. Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



Wish it wasn't the case, but clearly is. It is tough on the really respectful collectors on modest budgets. A huge fraction of those unoriginal coins were produced by big dealers who marketed to the blast white demand. Some remarkable toners were lost in those endeavors, particularly from the Continental Bank hoard silver dollars. So many original surface 19th century (and beyond) coins were irreversably wrecked by detached greed because they were temporarily deemed unsaleable or at least not for maximal profits.

edited to add>> The reason I mentioned "modest budgets" was because a huge part of the dipping involved coins that would be best placed in such collections, not all widgets but the more approachable dates and grades. That isn't to say that true rarities weren't also victims. I groan when I see those occasionally in lot viewings too. Greedy dealers (and collectors too) are not always the best custodians of out numismatic legacies despite their stated knowledge.

Steve27

The only factor holding back classic commemoratives is lack of demand.

LeeG

As long as prices on Classic Commem's stay suppressed, I'm a buyer!

291fifth

<< <i>Emphasis on originality is something that tends to be extremely exaggerated here on the forums. Many collectors don't care much about originality, and just go for what's eye appealing. Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



Absolutely correct!

The "market" wants "white." In addition, the great majority of collectors can't grade or detect originality.

The participants in this forum, especially those who have been around for some time, are not representative of the coin market in general.

UtahCoin

Steve27

That Bay Bridge would never make it into a 67 holder today.

Jcarney

<< <i>Go to any coin show and the dead white coins are
stacked like silver mountains. I only hope that silver
goes to 100 dollars an ounce, so many of these dead
coins can be melted into ingots. >>



I sure wish the word white would not be made synonymous with dead and washed out. There are plenty of lustrous original white coins out there.

TwoSides2aCoin

Not to worry. Our future coins will be rusty.

291fifth

<< <i>That Bay Bridge would never make it into a 67 holder today. >>



I agree. The toning is unattractive. It will stay in that "rattler" forever.

PerryHall

Two points:
1. Many so called original coins are just plain ugly with splotchy or dark toning. Dealers have a very hard time selling these coins without first dipping them.
2. The grading services frequently reward dipped coins with higher grades since dipping frequently exposes flashy luster hiding under dirty, dingey, toned surfaces.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



Ummm, yeah, if you say so. Yeah, those worked on coins with color might take a good picture..... can't see the problems etc. Get that baby in person and many are a hairlined mottled mess. But taking a good picture is important! >>



I'm not talking about the coins at are artifically toned in order to hide problems. I'm talking about quality pieces which have been enhanced, dipped, etc.

rooksmith

Are all "blast white" coins dipped? What is the natural color of "coin silver" in an uncirulated state under ideal condidtions (low humidity etc.)


I've seen some GSA Carson City coins that looked white. These assuredly were not dipped.


I wonder how many coins are mis-classified as cleaned or dipped, when in actuality they are just untarnished.

Steve27

" Are all "blast white" coins dipped?"

You answered your own question, GSA Morgans:

veryfine

<< <i>Two points:
1. Many so called original coins are just plain ugly with splotchy or dark toning. Dealers have a very hard time selling these coins without first dipping them.
2. The grading services frequently reward dipped coins with higher grades since dipping frequently exposes flashy luster hiding under dirty, dingey, toned surfaces. >>


You took the words right out of my mouth.
Both points are valid and often overlooked by toning enthusiasts in here.

richardshipp

I agree with Lee

veryfine

<< <i>

<< <i>Often times, the more appealing coin is the one that's been worked on. >>



Ummm, yeah, if you say so. Yeah, those worked on coins with color might take a good picture..... can't see the problems etc. Get that baby in person and many are a hairlined mottled mess. But taking a good picture is important! >>


Yeah, we know so.
"OFTEN" in this context is the important word here. Of course, "taking a good picture" can also make an original, ugly, darkly toned coin look spectacular. "Can't see the problems etc."