Which is the better deal and why: 1999-S Delaware Silver 25c PCGS PR70 DCAM or 2007-D T. Jefferson $
IGWT
Posts: 4,975 ✭
I don't collect modern coins (aside from buying annual sets from the Mint), so I don't have a good understanding of how the market values certain coins. But I genuinely want to understand better, and I don't intend this thread to prompt unthoughtful criticisms. That said, part of my question comes from shock at some of the prices asked and paid for recent issues. When I see some of the prices, I feel the same as when I'm reintroduced to a child whom I haven't seen for two or three years . . . my memory is far removed from the present reality, and I'm astounded by how quickly things change.
So, do the prices for the following two coins really reflect their true value (is that tall kid with the deepening voice really little Bobby) and which would you rather have for the money?
1999-S Delaware 25c PCGS PR70 DCAM (silver) @ $10,500
OR
2007-D T. Jefferson $1 PCGS MS70 @ $12,000
So, do the prices for the following two coins really reflect their true value (is that tall kid with the deepening voice really little Bobby) and which would you rather have for the money?
1999-S Delaware 25c PCGS PR70 DCAM (silver) @ $10,500
OR
2007-D T. Jefferson $1 PCGS MS70 @ $12,000
0
Comments
If I were buying to hold, I would choose the Delaware state quarter. It is a beautiful design--IMO, the best of the state quarter series.
I still believe that because of the quantity of these coins made, there are others that can go 70. They haven't surfaced, because they're still in sets in people's collections and dealer's stock.
Is a 1962 PR70DCAM Washington really worth $4,500?
Is a 1995-P in MS68 really worth $4,500?
Is a 1961 in MS67 really worth $7,000?
Is a 1950-D/S in MS67 really worth $27,500?
Is a 1934-D in MS67 really worth $22,000?
Is a 1932-D in MS66 really worth $143,000?
The exact same answer exists for each of the above questions which is YES since it is obvious that someone paid those values.
Perhaps the first part of the question should be "Do you think these values will hold over time?" since that is what most folks are implying with these types of questions.
For me, I'd take the TJ since I do not collect TPG graded State Quarters and it is the only one where I could possibly appreciate it's value.
The name is LEE!
I wouldn't pay $143k for that!
19Lyds - You mention the 1961-P quarter at $7,000, but, don't forget that the 1961-D quarter just sold for around $19,000 at that last Bowers sale (and it sold for about $13,000 or so the time before that when it originally sold at auction as I recall)!!
Wondercoin.
<< <i>...since the State quarter series is more established than the Presidential dollar series. >>
I agree. The SQ series has a 1/3 of one generation track record, about 1/27th the track record of a flowing hair dollar.
Actually, I do agree with the overall point, too.
It's as easy for me to look up prices as for the next guy . . . and that's not the information that will help me to understand these coins. There might be differences among the coins that you listed that give some greater numismatic value than others regardless of the prices paid. I don't know, just like I don't know whether the SHQ or Pres $1 in the OP carries the greater value. I do know, however, that prices asked or paid don't always tell the whole story (in cases of both classic and modern coinage).
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>whats the pop on the delaware? >>
<< <i>I don't collect modern coins (aside from buying annual sets from the Mint), so I don't have a good understanding of how the market values certain coins. But I genuinely want to understand better, and I don't intend this thread to prompt unthoughtful criticisms. That said, part of my question comes from shock at some of the prices asked and paid for recent issues. When I see some of the prices, I feel the same as when I'm reintroduced to a child whom I haven't seen for two or three years . . . my memory is far removed from the present reality, and I'm astounded by how quickly things change.
So, do the prices for the following two coins really reflect their true value (is that tall kid with the deepening voice really little Bobby) and which would you rather have for the money?
1999-S Delaware 25c PCGS PR70 DCAM (silver) @ $10,500
If you buy proof, and mint sets, then the true value is equal to the cost of manufacturing these sets.
Any proof or mint set should grade above Gem brilliant, So if you buy a mint set for 30 bucks, you should expect the coins to grade between 65 to 70 for uncirculated sets, and 67 to 70 for proof sets.
You don't need a holder to tell you that modern coinage is rare in high grades, because they are manufactured that way for the collector.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>
If you buy proof, and mint sets, then the true value is equal to the cost of manufacturing these sets.
Any proof or mint set should grade above Gem brilliant, So if you buy a mint set for 30 bucks, you should expect the coins to grade between 65 to 70 for uncirculated sets, and 67 to 70 for proof sets.
You don't need a holder to tell you that modern coinage is rare in high grades, because they are manufactured that way for the collector. >>
This was not true at all for mint sets before 2005. It's not really true since then either.
Mint set coins have a good shot at being gem but there's usually at least one problem
and two or three isn't unusual.
Try finding a gem '76 type I Ike in a mint set. Heck, try finding a nice choice one!
<< <i>
This was not true at all for mint sets before 2005. It's not really true since then either.
Mint set coins have a good shot at being gem but there's usually at least one problem
and two or three isn't unusual.
Try finding a gem '76 type I Ike in a mint set. Heck, try finding a nice choice one! >>
What is the mintage for these coins?
The majority of graded coins, compared to the actual mintages has got to be less then 1% correct?
Mintages of 47,799,000 with how many graded?
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>
The majority of graded coins, compared to the actual mintages has got to be less then 1% correct?
Mintages of 47,799,000 with how many graded? >>
I'm not certain of your meaning here. This was the mintage of the '71 Ike. I'd
guess that about 30,000,000 survive and a couple million of these are unc. Most
of the unc examples are quite poor and might never be graded because there
might never be enough demand to warrant it. A few thousand of these are nice
and the bulk have been graded or would be if the price were a little higher. This
one doesn't appear in the mint sets though.
Typically mint set production is less than 1% of total production but more than half
of the gems come from mint sets. Gems account for as little as about .1% of mint
set coins for something like a '76 type I $1 to as much as 40% for an '88-D cent.
Generally if you figure 2% you won't miss by much.
Want To Buy:
Connecticut Nationals (Large and Small size)
Connecticut Obsoletes
But, what if you simply had purchased gold bullion with the $1,447,500 instead? 12 months ago $1,447,500 put in gold bullion instead of 1999 silver quarter sets = $2,049,804 for a profit of roughly $602,304 with NO WORK as of today!!
Thoughts?
Wondercoin
However, I would choose the Quarter all things being equal.
The TJ dollar is an ugly coin (IMO) and the chance of the population tripling is great.
The Delaware isn't a super attractive coin to me, but far nicer asthetically than the TJ, and the chance of the population doubling is less likely than the TJ going to 3 ... IMHO of course.
I also believe the Delaware has a much stronger collector base ... and will continue to have that advantage far into the future.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>22/4825 graded. $300/set cost roughly = $1,447,500 of product to produce (22) $10,500 coins - $231,000. Minus grading fees of about $48,250 = $182,750 net. Result - 12.62% return on funds if the remainder of the non-Delaware coins can be sold off at cost and the other 4,803 non-70 DEL can also be sold off at cost. A lot of work to make 12.62%?
But, what if you simply had purchased gold bullion with the $1,447,500 instead? 12 months ago $1,447,500 put in gold bullion instead of 1999 silver quarter sets = $2,049,804 for a profit of roughly $602,304 with NO WORK as of today!!
Thoughts?
Wondercoin >>
my thoughts are that this whole castle of modern 70s is built on
a foundation of sand.. sand being the shifting whims of the TPGs.
only a true believer would drink that kool-aid and say it was a great
buy.
<< <i>
my thoughts are that this whole castle of modern 70s is built on
a foundation of sand.. sand being the shifting whims of the TPGs.
only a true believer would drink that kool-aid and say it was a great
buy. >>
It's a damn shame there aren't any MS or PR-70's classics. It would sure make it a lot tougher to slam them.
While I'd never suggest someone buy a coin because it's a great value, these 70's certainly are high grade.
<< <i>
<< <i>
my thoughts are that this whole castle of modern 70s is built on
a foundation of sand.. sand being the shifting whims of the TPGs.
only a true believer would drink that kool-aid and say it was a great
buy. >>
It's a damn shame there aren't any MS or PR-70's classics. It would sure make it a lot tougher to slam them.
While I'd never suggest someone buy a coin because it's a great value, these 70's certainly are high grade. >>
you know darn well that paying up for a point higher in a tpg slab
of a classic falls into the same boat and most of us have warned of
that also. especially when insiders know it was in a point lower slab
last year and the buyer did not.
same game. same foundation of sand.
same issue arises when 500 coins are graded right below it.
same issue arises when you crack it out and 95% of people agree
the grade is one point lower.
also note, it is a sign of desperation to bring up the same arguement
to defend 70 moderns.
the crux of the matter is that you crack out either coin and what do
you have? not much.
with a classic? quite a bit of the value is retained.
you cannot really argue that can you?
<< <i>
the crux of the matter is that you crack out either coin and what do
you have? not much.
with a classic? quite a bit of the value is retained.
you cannot really argue that can you? >>
There should be a tendency for any coin broken out of a slab and
resubmitted to come back in the same grade if it isn't damaged in
the process.
Otherwise there would be precious little point in slabbing them in
the first place; especially for 70's.
You mean like a coin I spoke with a classic coin dealer about this afternoon that he recently upgraded from a PCGS-MS65 to an NGC-MS66 and made $200,000 profit overnight on the sale.
Wondercoin
Collectors often show great confidence in the TPGs' accuracy and consistency by paying multiples for the next grade up. Yet, the risk of a bodybag or a lower grade on resubmittal keeps a high percentage of those collectors from liberating their coins after purchase. Why their confidence exists before a purchase, but not after, is a mystery to me. It's as though the market is built on a kind of cognitive dissonance. This situation can last only so long, because rational thinking -- the need for a consistent set of beliefs -- will take hold eventually.
<< <i> This situation can last only so long, because rational thinking -- the need for a consistent set of beliefs -- will take hold eventually. >>
I've been waiting 43 years.
<< <i>I had mentioned a number of times recently that the last sales price at a MAJOR auction for a 1999-S Delaware Silver quarter in PCGS-PR70DCAM was about $17,250, if I recall the FUN sale (1/08) at Heritage correctly. That price realized by IGWT was well more than $5,000 lower actually.
19Lyds - You mention the 1961-P quarter at $7,000, but, don't forget that the 1961-D quarter just sold for around $19,000 at that last Bowers sale (and it sold for about $13,000 or so the time before that when it originally sold at auction as I recall)!!
Wondercoin. >>
Thanks for the update Mitch!
Here's one that should get the classic guys yacking!
This totally blew me away since I thought for sure it would never sell at the asking price!
I guess I need to get my Weak Edge Monroe's in to the gradersand pronto!
The whole point is that if someone doesn't collect moderns then they will never appreciate or even begin to understand how difficult it is to obtain some of these high grades! They all simply assume that high grades are given out like candy at a birthday party by the TPG's when in actuality, nothing could be farther from the truth. Some of these coins are extrememly difficult to get in high grades! If you don't agree with this assessment, try submitting some and let us know what you get! Heck, you might even be able to make a few bucks in the process!
If the classic collector's do not understand how or why these coins bring this kind of money then there is nothing that can be said to ever change that! The bottom line is that there are just folks out there willing to pay and willing to pay well for what they like.
IMO, the Modern collectors represent a new breed of collector that, instead of sorting through roll after roll or bag after bag of XF or common BU coins looking for that MS66, needs to sort through set after set of MS67 or better coinage to obtain the MS69 or MS70 coinage. Its no different than it was 40 years ago except that the US Mint has stepped up the quality of the coins.
Coins are coins and people just collect them.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>....the TJ First Spouse coin......to date it is the only MS-70 in the Pres Dollars series....
If I were buying to hold, I would choose the Delaware state quarter. It is a beautiful design--IMO, the best of the state quarter series. >>
I too think this first SHQ is the most attractive of them all, although, I do like MT a lot as well.
Really, only one MS70 Jeff Lib? Wow. I must take a harder look at mine.....
<< <i>
Thanks for the update Mitch!
Here's one that should get the classic guys yacking!
This totally blew me away since I thought for sure it would never sell at the asking price!
I guess I need to get my Weak Edge Monroe's in to the gradersand pronto!
The whole point is that if someone doesn't collect moderns then they will never appreciate or even begin to understand how difficult it is to obtain some of these high grades! They all simply assume that high grades are given out like candy at a birthday party by the TPG's when in actuality, nothing could be farther from the truth. Some of these coins are extrememly difficult to get in high grades! If you don't agree with this assessment, try submitting some and let us know what you get! Heck, you might even be able to make a few bucks in the process!
If the classic collector's do not understand how or why these coins bring this kind of money then there is nothing that can be said to ever change that! The bottom line is that there are just folks out there willing to pay and willing to pay well for what they like.
IMO, the Modern collectors represent a new breed of collector that, instead of sorting through roll after roll or bag after bag of XF or common BU coins looking for that MS66, needs to sort through set after set of MS67 or better coinage to obtain the MS69 or MS70 coinage. Its no different than it was 40 years ago except that the US Mint has stepped up the quality of the coins.
Coins are coins and people just collect them. >>
Ultimately there's little difference between searching sets for MS-69 or MS-70 coinage
today and searching pocket change for rarities 50 years ago.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Great take on the subject.
I was a tad surprised at the 7K price on a Monroe D Weak B Pos MS67 coin....
Note that is Isn't even a First Day Issue coin! Does that make the FDI version worth $ 20K + ?
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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Wondercoin
There are undoubtedly some astoundingly high prices paid throughout the market as a whole. (And you might even recall some collectors of older coinage questioning the judgment of folks who are willing to pay $90k for a half-dollar from the '40s or $325k for a nickel from the '20s.) Part of what pulls me up short with the ultra-grade modern coins is the rapidity with which they reached such high prices.
Of course, it is hard to say which was the "better deal" as the 07-D Jefferson MS70 no longer even exists. The coin was not a true 70 and PCGS stepped up to the plate recently and settled with its (new) owner to convert the coin into an MS69. Kudos to that true collector who could have cared less about the owning the pop 1 for the entire series (overgraded) coin that may have likely kept that collector #1 in the series for many years to come. He simply wanted "true" 70's for his wonderful extensive modern business strike collection and the 07-D Jefferson did not fit the bill.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Ask the exact same question over any other collectible Washington Quarter.
Is a 1962 PR70DCAM Washington really worth $4,500?
Is a 1995-P in MS68 really worth $4,500?
Is a 1961 in MS67 really worth $7,000?
Is a 1950-D/S in MS67 really worth $27,500?
Is a 1934-D in MS67 really worth $22,000?
Is a 1932-D in MS66 really worth $143,000?
The exact same answer exists for each of the above questions which is YES since it is obvious that someone paid those values.
Perhaps the first part of the question should be "Do you think these values will hold over time?" since that is what most folks are implying with these types of questions.
For me, I'd take the TJ since I do not collect TPG graded State Quarters and it is the only one where I could possibly appreciate it's value. >>
One has to wonder what the collector base is for each of the above coins. I realize it was posted over a year ago but someone has to ask. This would be my greatest fear buying into such high quality material. One must assume the collector base for the 1932-D is much higher than the two coins suggested by the OP.
And thank you Mitch for sharing the story on that picky collector. Time, trial and error has proven to many collectors, the highest quality in strike, grade/condition and luster (deep mirrors and frost etc) will always add up to a very satisfying eye appealing coin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I think the last sale on a DEL Silver actually just occured a week or two ago on ebay for around $6,500- $7,000 (I forget the exact amount). A few Teletrade sales for a bit less also do not show the 15% buyers fee when you do a search there. >>
One just sold on eBay yesterday for $3,800.
Yet, look at the NGC coins for an interesting comparison.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Just found the pop on Teletrade: 254. The've sold for $4,300 and $5,200 on Teletrade.
So in this case, NGC with a pop five times greater than PCGS is selling for more than PCGS. What are the odds?
I know why I'm awake... it's 2:00 pm here in Afghanistan. Why are you awake? :-)