"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing. Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and promotion."
!!! >>
Repeating the same wrong and inaccurate statements ad infinitum does not make them true.
To each his own. I have no problem with anyone purchasing any coin at any price; however the buyer should (in a perfect world) be educated on the subject matter and make an informed decision.
I would not buy a top pop 70 coin, simply because I would not want to pay a high price for such a coin when for less money I can buy one that looks just as nice.
As for a 1999 Delaware Silver PF70 DCAM quarter, I would not be impressed with that coin.
I would be more impressed with (and more likely to buy) such a quarter if it was PF70 CAM or better yet, PF70 (and brilliant). Given the production tecknology of today, proof coin that does receives only a CAM designation or that receives no CAM or DCAM designation is a much more "rare" coin.
Sort of the reverse of the situation present with 1950 proofs (CAM and DCAM coins are the exception and brilliant coins are the norm).
Don't tell anyone forum members I have a Silver Proof 71 quarter. I drank it reading the comments on here.
Kidding aside there should be no bashing of ones opinions that is why this hobby is so great. If we all knew the true factors on the Process of making coins, selling coins and grading coins, I bet you we wouldn't be on here ranting. Although some people are more edumacatd than others in this game. Come on stop putting others down. Just put me down like some of the Knucklebucks that don't like my posts. I'm me and you guys are you and that's the way I like it. Good Night and God Bless.
<< <i>To each his own. I have no problem with anyone purchasing any coin at any price; however the buyer should (in a perfect world) be educated on the subject matter and make an informed decision.
I would not buy a top pop 70 coin, simply because I would not want to pay a high price for such a coin when for less money I can buy one that looks just as nice.
As for a 1999 Delaware Silver PF70 DCAM quarter, I would not be impressed with that coin.
I would be more impressed with (and more likely to buy) such a quarter if it was PF70 CAM or better yet, PF70 (and brilliant). Given the production tecknology of today, proof coin that does receives only a CAM designation or that receives no CAM or DCAM designation is a much more "rare" coin.
Sort of the reverse of the situation present with 1950 proofs (CAM and DCAM coins are the exception and brilliant coins are the norm). >>
Most don't seem to realize that IKE dollars don't all come in DCAMs.
Yet, the 69 DCAM sets are for sale everywhere. I noticed lots of 50 sets for sale on Teletrade. Thats 550 coins in ONE lot !!! LOTS of submissions to get all of those sets and only a few 70's to show for the work.
There is a host of coins graded with out CAM or DCAM designations. The DCAM is the norm in the last 20+ years.
The Delaware Quarter is a conditional rarity in 70 grade, that most agree that it is not for them, for the one point and lots of cash.
There would be a few buyers ready If another one comes availiable.
It wasn't that long ago when Franklin halves were considered high mintage, low appeal, modern junk. At this point, we do have reasonable population statistics to judge the series and dates within. MS67FBL and 69PRDCAM are similar to something like the state quarter MS69 and PR70DCAM. A big difference is that the latter nearly universally went straight from Mint box receipts to PCGS. Both have premiums heavily guided by registry competition and aligned population promotion. Two other big differences, which are only my opinions, is that the state quarter prematurely topped out and the raw risk in paying a premium one grade lower is much less for the Frankie.
If people want to play that game, all the power to them. That's their sandbox, not mine. I'd caution that there is indeed much more risk in their valuations than many are willing to admit. I also think, even if it continues to grow despite risks, the headroom for appreciation potential is highly limited. Inflation adjusted, I wouldn't expect to see a state quarter go for six figures in my lifetime and I hope to live a lot longer. I do expect to see many pops rise and premiums collapse. My speculation, yours may vary.
"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing. Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and promotion."
!!! >>
Repeating the same wrong and inaccurate statements ad infinitum does not make them true. >>
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply...
is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people including the people who buy the darn things could probably not pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently.
i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it. i need a good chuckle lately.
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply... >>
The mint controls how many are made and collectors control how many are submitted.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i> is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people including the people who buy the darn things could probably not pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
No, it's not true. Any collector paying multiples for a coin he can't tell from the next grade down is taking on far more risk than is necessary in an extremely risky "investment".
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i> i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it. i need a good chuckle lately. >>
You'll never convince collectors that they shouldn't collect.
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply... >>
The mint controls how many are made and collectors control how many are submitted.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i> is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people including the people who buy the darn things could probably not pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
No, it's not true. Any collector paying multiples for a coin he can't tell from the next grade down is taking on far more risk than is necessary in an extremely risky "investment".
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i> i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it. i need a good chuckle lately. >>
You'll never convince collectors that they shouldn't collect.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins. >>
so in other words none of the statements were false, inaccurate, or wrong. i rest my case ;-)
as for it being the same with classics i agree. we mentioned that earlier. yet crack a classic out and it holds its value better unlike most top pop moderns. so it is not quite the same is it?
<< <i>is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people including the people who buy the darn things could probably not pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
Change 69 to 68 and 70 to 69 and you have the exact same scenario!
Folks buy the plastic and that isn't going to change anytime soon simply because not everybody has the time nor the patience to get that detailed with their grading skills! If you think these people have an extra 10 or 20 grand laying around because daddy left it too them think again. Some of these buyers do have other professions which they are committed to and which take up their time.
No, 70's are not for everybody.
No, not everybody can tell a 70 from a 69 the same as not every body knows the difference between a 64 and a 65!
Yes, the TPG's have a tendency to grade 70's a bit tougher than 69's because they have a financially liable for the grade! That liability is more than likely tied to some type of insurance policy for which premiums get paid. The higher the buyback when something goes wrong, the higher the premium.
At what point did you think that PCGS and NGC weren't businesses with business obligations and business liabilities? I am not implying for a second that the TPG's control the release of 70's but what I am stating is that the 70's they do release, they are obligated to financially backup that grade. If you can;t tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with all your years of grading skills then all I can say is pay better attention.
If you don't appreciate MS70 moderns, why can't you just state that instead of getting all uppity over YOUR opinions? In case you haven''t been paying attention, the buyers of these ultra high grade moderns don't give a squat doodly about your opinion!
My view is that these buyers are trying to get a foothold on future collections. Diss then enough and there won't be any left to collect, then you'll have your rarities!
Too bad these folks weren't around in 82 and 83 to hoard away some nice OBW Rolls! The return on investment would by 400 to 500% easily! Unfortunately, in 82 and 83, even though all the signs were there, all the modern bashers and elitist collectors put the skids to that idea! "Why are you buying these? They made millions of them!" "God what an idiot you are for socking away bank rolls of 1982 and 1983 Quarters!"
Looky now, those coins don't exist because folks didn't pay attention! A halfway decent 1983P Quarter will set you back $20.00 easily.
Do I buy 70's? Nope, can't afford them but if I get some graded and folks want to pay 5 figure sums for them, I certainly ain't gonna say "Why would you wanna do that?" In 5 years they won't be worth anywhere near what you paid for them!"
People don't know how to grade. TPG's Do. People pay big bucks for low pop modern coins! Get used to it cause nothing you do or say will ever change that.
Now get out of bed YaHa, I wanna gripe at you!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"LOTS of submissions to get all of those sets and only a few 70's to show for the work."
Actually Jim - NO 70's whatsoever. I have slabbed closing in on nearly 5,000 PR69DCAM Ikes now without a single 70 since the end of the 2nd quarter of 2007. I have tied up well into six figures of money on the project since then and now have the privilege of selling roughly 5,000 coins at near break even. You see, no one ever discusses the losses and the pain of trying to produce top pop moderns - we only read about that sole MS70 Pres $1 or that nearly impossible to slab DEL 70. Anyone want to buy 500 freshly slabbed PCGS-PR69DCAM Ike 11-pc sets (5,500 coins)? I'm just a PM away to discuss it - you can even go on TV with them if that is in your plans!!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Actually Jim - NO 70's whatsoever. I have slabbed closing in on nearly 5,000 PR69DCAM Ikes now without a single 70 since the end of the 2nd quarter of 2007. I have tied up well into six figures of money on the project since then and now have the privilege of selling roughly 5,000 coins at near break even. You see, no one ever discusses the losses and the pain of trying to produce top pop moderns - we only read about that sole MS70 Pres $1 or that nearly impossible to slab DEL 70. Anyone want to buy 500 freshly slabbed PCGS-PR69DCAM Ike 11-pc sets (5,500 coins)? I'm just a PM away to discuss it - you can even go on TV with them if that is in your plans!!(
Did you submit only those that you thought had a shot at 70?
IGWT - According to all of these threads I have been reading, doesn't virtually every coin have a shot to go 70 as no one can truly tell them apart?
Submitting 5,000 coins thinking that they warrant a 70 and getting 5,000 69s in return means: (1) you can't distinguish them, (2) the grading companies can't distinguish them, or (3) they're indistinguishable. No?
IGWT - Obviously, I also have a "ton" of Proof Ikes in tubes that failed to achieve the 69DCAM grade. As Jim mentioned above, obtaining the DCAM portion of the grade is often quite challenging - many Proof Ikes are only CAM or worse. My pursuit of the 70 grade Ike only involved a fraction of 1% of the gross number of coins I purchased. The other 99%+ of the coins I fully expected a 69DC or worse grade on.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
IGWT - Obviously, I also have a "ton" of Proof Ikes in tubes that failed to achieve the 69DCAM grade. As Jim mentioned above, obtaining the DCAM portion of the grade is often quite challenging - many Proof Ikes are only CAM or worse. My pursuit of the 70 grade Ike only involved a fraction of 1% of the gross number of coins I purchased. The other 99%+ of the coins I fully expected a 69DC or worse grade on.
Why submit those 99%+ if you expect to do no better than break even? It seems like it would make more sense just to submit the 1% on which you expect to make money. I must be misunderstanding something in your explanation.
Wondercoin- I hope PCGS sends you a fruitbasket at christmas time. I would be pissed if they sent a turkey at Thanksgiving. That is some dedication. I might as well give up now on trying to get the 70. I have to much stress in my life now (16 year old son) to play the grading game. It is one thing to be a armchair grader and give out opinions, and quite another to open the checkbook and watch the dollars fly out.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
"I might as well give up now on trying to get the 70."
PA - It is, for all practical purposes, nearly next to impossible at this time IMHO. And, as Datentype mentioned, a truly deserving piece is nothing short of a masterpiece though. Obviously, not for everyone -just as a 41-S Walker for $90,000 is not for everyone or a $325,000 Buffalo nickel or even a $140,000 Washington quarter. The $20,000 PR70DCAM Clad Ike (pre-1977) would comfortably fit in with the other coins I mentioned. PCGS has graded -1- specimen in 22 years!!! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
does not the tpg control how many 70's are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply?
The same thing goes on here as what goes on in the diamond game.Liken how the market supply of MS70's is controlled to how the market supply of gem quality diamonds is controlled and the puzzle pieces will start to fall in place for coin folks.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i> does not the tpg control how many 70's are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply?
The same thing goes on here as what goes on in the diamond game.Liken how the market supply of MS70's is controlled to how the market supply of gem quality diamonds is controlled and the puzzle pieces will start to fall in place for coin folks. >>
It's just criminal the way they restrict the flow of MS-68 bust coinage. It's all just a racket. Look at the populations of MS-65 1933 Saints!!!
Why submit those 99%+ if you expect to do no better than break even?
I wish I could tell you that I was trying to get frequent flyer points, but PCGS does not take credit cards over $2,500/month I believe. LOL I did have a decent reason though IGWT. Will you be at Long Beach tomorrow? I would be happy to tell you there.
Alas, I'm sitting in an office at work (well, at least pretending to work) on the wrong coast. It would be reasonable to infer that submission of those 99%+ break-even coins reflects the extreme difficulty (some would say impossibility) in distinguishing between a 69 and a 70. It might not be right, but it would be reasonable. And the inference, wrong though it might be, jibes with the fact that the value of a TPG-graded 70 plummets to the value of a 69 the moment that it's removed from the holder.
Those are the perceptions that someone needs to correct if they're wrong. It's no answer to say that similar situations exist in segments of the market for older coins. They do; but, one wrong does not excuse another. And chasing one point seems to reach the apex of folly (or nadir, depending on one's viewpoint) in the 69/70 modern market.
...the value of a TPG-graded 70 plummets to the value of a 69 the moment that it's removed from the holder.
Goes to 68 or worse.The 70 and 69 grades only exist for coins or bullion pieces surrounded by TPG plastic.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>...the value of a TPG-graded 70 plummets to the value of a 69 the moment that it's removed from the holder. Goes to 68 or worse.The 70 and 69 grades only exist for coins or bullion pieces surrounded by TPG plastic. >>
When we sell a car, do we wash it ? Wax it ? Prepare it for presentation ? When we sell a house, do we clean it, paint it or prep it for presentation ?
Why are coins under such scrutiny by grade and value ?
I'm not trying to fan flames , but things are so simple to me that I cannot understand the vehemence that some people express in regards to this hobby, trade, industry or game of numismatics.
The truth comes across to some "vehemently," i suppose.
When we sell a car, do we wash it ? Wax it ? Prepare it for presentation ?
When we sell a house, do we clean it, paint it or prep it for presentation ?
Are you saying THE reason we put coins in TPG plastic is to sell them?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
"the value of a TPG-graded 70 plummets to the value of a 69 the moment that it's removed from the holder."
IGWT - No exactly. I mentioned that I would not offer any of my spectacular PR69DC coins for sale above the cost of a regular 69 graded coin at this time as, IMHO, the market has not "evolved" to that point. However, I, personally, would happily BUY these same coins for huge premiums if offered to me. Let's start with the 1973-S or 1974-S Clad Ike which is worth about $30 in PR69DCAM today. I am a buyer at 100x that sum - $3,000/coin today - SIGHT-SEEN for a spectacular example of each that appear flawless to me in their PCGS-PR69DC holders. Who has got one? Wondercoin
P.S. - If I do not buy your coin, I will show you why your coin is not flawless as well.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
1) I thought "vehemence" was a great term for what I'm reading here 2) Yes, we put coins in plastic to sell when we treat coins as "marketable" 3) No, we put coins in plastic to protect them in our collection if we treat coins as a "hobby" 4) Yes, we put coins in plastic and number them to play a "game" in a registry race. 4) No, we don't put coins in plastic to show the "industry" that it's a serious hobby, game and market.
Any more questions and you'll have to contact my attorney
<< <i>Teletrade auction 2533 lot 2397 Silver Delaware statehood quarter for $10,500. I think it's nice there are only 20 of these but there is a huge risk if more of these get grade a 70 grade from PCGS and with millions of sets out there for $10,000 I think GOlD would be a better investment.
I wonder if the person that bought this coin is George Wilson on the Show Denace the Menace?
This is a opinion, if you don't like go jump in a lake. >>
"Millions of sets"????
morris
"Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand." ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! ** Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY 28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST TEMECULA, CA 92590 (951) 757-0334
When I look closely at the silver proof Statehood Quarters, I find that I have trouble looking for imperfections that might disqualify a coin from a very high grade (i.e., a 70).
For $10,500 I could be persuaded to give it another shot.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
First thing I will say, is that I believe everyone should collect what THEY like. I have nothing against moderns, as I have a Registry collection of Proof Kennedy Halves (NGC). Thing is, I think everyone one here would have to agree with the following: 1) There are DEFINATELY 70's in 69 slabs! 2) There are DEFINATELY 69's in 70 slabs! 3) Nobody here could pick 3 70's out of a group of 10 coins, in which 3 were 70's, and 7 were 69's! This applies to either service. 4) Neither service could accomplish #3 above! (This one is my personal opinion...) 5) Aside from Registry points. MOST 69's are just as nice as MOST 70's
I believe, if it were done honestly, and with coins that were not familiar to the individual, nobody could accomplish #3.
If anyone wants to pay moon money for a PERCEIVED "Perfect" coin, it is certainly their business, but I wouldn't recommend it to a new collector....
seems the tpgs could solve the problem by simply having their registry set give the same amount of points for both 69s and 70s. As in this would solve the huge registry competition at those levels for most people. You would have many more tied finest sets... but that is no fun ;-) you need a clear winner to get the people into a coin frenzy.
but i suppose i am blaming too much on the registry set competitions? i am unclear how much frenzy was taking place with 70s before the registry set existed... or were there so few 70s it was not even a problem in the first place due to stricter grading standards. when a 68 meant something really special...
<< <i>When I look closely at the silver proof Statehood Quarters, I find that I have trouble looking for imperfections that might disqualify a coin from a very high grade (i.e., a 70).
For $10,500 I could be persuaded to give it another shot.
>>
A lot of people don't realize how narrow the quality range is on a lot of these coins. Obviously it's wider with some than others but with some most coins are clustered around PR-68 or 69. Telling these apart can take quite a bit of learning since it sure isn't like grading large cents. I have a little more confi- dence in the ability of graders to differentiate the proofs simply because there aren't so many confounding factors to rate.
If you can't tell these apart it's probably because you don't have the experience and it's probably unwise to pay the premium for the higher grade.
I don't know how much activity there was in looking for the finest proofs before the registries since I paid little attention to proofs but can tell you this; proof rolls and singles were quite common and were invariably picked over. Some- body was sure looking for the varieties and gems.
"If you can't tell these apart it's probably because you don't have the experience and it's probably unwise to pay the premium for the higher grade."
cladking, I think, in a nutshell, that is basically what fc was saying. Since most people (and possibly most graders) cannot really tell 69's and 70's apart, the huge money is being paid for someone's opinion (read that as "best guess"). So, unless you are that person that can truly distinguish the "70", you shouldn't buy it. It then follows that, unless you can find that "special" buyer, who can also distinguish that it is a "true" 70, you can't sell it for big bucks. I think the real question is: Does a real difference exist between 69's and 70's? From what I've seen, the difference is in the graders opinion, not in the coin.
Comments
<< <i>I feel a poof in my gut
Do you meam popp in your gut?
<< <i>frankcoins said in a different thread:
"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing.
Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have
such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins
graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation
of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very
common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand
and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and
promotion."
!!! >>
Repeating the same wrong and inaccurate statements ad infinitum does not make them true.
<< <i>I want a 2007-D SF Lincoln cent in ms70 !!
How much you paying for one of these? It would be in the slab of course. >>
It would depend on the POP of the coin at the time.
If you get one, then let me know.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
I would not buy a top pop 70 coin, simply because I would not want to pay a high price for such a coin when for less money I can buy one that looks just as nice.
As for a 1999 Delaware Silver PF70 DCAM quarter, I would not be impressed with that coin.
I would be more impressed with (and more likely to buy) such a quarter if it was PF70 CAM or better yet, PF70 (and brilliant). Given the production tecknology of today, proof coin that does receives only a CAM designation or that receives no CAM or DCAM designation is a much more "rare" coin.
Sort of the reverse of the situation present with 1950 proofs (CAM and DCAM coins are the exception and brilliant coins are the norm).
Kidding aside there should be no bashing of ones opinions that is why this hobby is so great. If we all knew the true factors on the Process of making coins, selling coins and grading coins, I bet you we wouldn't be on here ranting. Although some people are more edumacatd than others in this game. Come on stop putting others down. Just put me down like some of the Knucklebucks that don't like my posts. I'm me and you guys are you and that's the way I like it. Good Night and God Bless.
<< <i>To each his own. I have no problem with anyone purchasing any coin at any price; however the buyer should (in a perfect world) be educated on the subject matter and make an informed decision.
I would not buy a top pop 70 coin, simply because I would not want to pay a high price for such a coin when for less money I can buy one that looks just as nice.
As for a 1999 Delaware Silver PF70 DCAM quarter, I would not be impressed with that coin.
I would be more impressed with (and more likely to buy) such a quarter if it was PF70 CAM or better yet, PF70 (and brilliant). Given the production tecknology of today, proof coin that does receives only a CAM designation or that receives no CAM or DCAM designation is a much more "rare" coin.
Sort of the reverse of the situation present with 1950 proofs (CAM and DCAM coins are the exception and brilliant coins are the norm). >>
Most don't seem to realize that IKE dollars don't all come in DCAMs.
Yet, the 69 DCAM sets are for sale everywhere.
I noticed lots of 50 sets for sale on Teletrade. Thats 550 coins in ONE lot !!!
LOTS of submissions to get all of those sets and only a few 70's to show for the work.
There is a host of coins graded with out CAM or DCAM designations.
The DCAM is the norm in the last 20+ years.
The Delaware Quarter is a conditional rarity in 70 grade, that most agree that it is not for them, for the one point and lots of cash.
There would be a few buyers ready If another one comes availiable.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
If people want to play that game, all the power to them. That's their sandbox, not mine. I'd caution that there is indeed much more risk in their valuations than many are willing to admit. I also think, even if it continues to grow despite risks, the headroom for appreciation potential is highly limited. Inflation adjusted, I wouldn't expect to see a state quarter go for six figures in my lifetime and I hope to live a lot longer. I do expect to see many pops rise and premiums collapse. My speculation, yours may vary.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i>frankcoins said in a different thread:
"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing.
Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have
such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins
graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation
of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very
common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand
and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and
promotion."
!!! >>
Repeating the same wrong and inaccurate statements ad infinitum does not make them true. >>
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg
control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an
artificially restricted supply...
is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people
including the people who buy the darn things could probably not
pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently.
i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum
from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it.
i need a good chuckle lately.
<< <i>
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg
control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an
artificially restricted supply... >>
The mint controls how many are made and collectors control how many are submitted.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i>
is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people
including the people who buy the darn things could probably not
pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
No, it's not true. Any collector paying multiples for a coin he can't tell from the next grade down is taking on far more risk than is necessary in an extremely risky "investment".
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i>
i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum
from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it.
i need a good chuckle lately. >>
You'll never convince collectors that they shouldn't collect.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
oh come on now. which are wrong and inaccurate? does not the tpg
control how many 70s are produced or not? that is what i call an
artificially restricted supply... >>
The mint controls how many are made and collectors control how many are submitted.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i>
is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people
including the people who buy the darn things could probably not
pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
No, it's not true. Any collector paying multiples for a coin he can't tell from the next grade down is taking on far more risk than is necessary in an extremely risky "investment".
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins.
<< <i>
i know i am not going to convince the hardcore believers on this forum
from changing their minds but i like reading them trying to defend it.
i need a good chuckle lately. >>
You'll never convince collectors that they shouldn't collect.
It's EXACTLY the same with classic coins. >>
so in other words none of the statements were false, inaccurate, or
wrong. i rest my case ;-)
as for it being the same with classics i agree. we mentioned that
earlier. yet crack a classic out and it holds its value better unlike
most top pop moderns. so it is not quite the same is it?
sigh ;-)
<< <i>is not is true that you crack out 9 69s and 1 70 that most people
including the people who buy the darn things could probably not
pick out the 70? i think so even if they say differently. >>
Change 69 to 68 and 70 to 69 and you have the exact same scenario!
Folks buy the plastic and that isn't going to change anytime soon simply because not everybody has the time nor the patience to get that detailed with their grading skills! If you think these people have an extra 10 or 20 grand laying around because daddy left it too them think again. Some of these buyers do have other professions which they are committed to and which take up their time.
No, 70's are not for everybody.
No, not everybody can tell a 70 from a 69 the same as not every body knows the difference between a 64 and a 65!
Yes, the TPG's have a tendency to grade 70's a bit tougher than 69's because they have a financially liable for the grade! That liability is more than likely tied to some type of insurance policy for which premiums get paid. The higher the buyback when something goes wrong, the higher the premium.
At what point did you think that PCGS and NGC weren't businesses with business obligations and business liabilities? I am not implying for a second that the TPG's control the release of 70's but what I am stating is that the 70's they do release, they are obligated to financially backup that grade. If you can;t tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with all your years of grading skills then all I can say is pay better attention.
If you don't appreciate MS70 moderns, why can't you just state that instead of getting all uppity over YOUR opinions? In case you haven''t been paying attention, the buyers of these ultra high grade moderns don't give a squat doodly about your opinion!
My view is that these buyers are trying to get a foothold on future collections. Diss then enough and there won't be any left to collect, then you'll have your rarities!
Too bad these folks weren't around in 82 and 83 to hoard away some nice OBW Rolls! The return on investment would by 400 to 500% easily! Unfortunately, in 82 and 83, even though all the signs were there, all the modern bashers and elitist collectors put the skids to that idea! "Why are you buying these? They made millions of them!" "God what an idiot you are for socking away bank rolls of 1982 and 1983 Quarters!"
Looky now, those coins don't exist because folks didn't pay attention! A halfway decent 1983P Quarter will set you back $20.00 easily.
Do I buy 70's? Nope, can't afford them but if I get some graded and folks want to pay 5 figure sums for them, I certainly ain't gonna say "Why would you wanna do that?" In 5 years they won't be worth anywhere near what you paid for them!"
People don't know how to grade. TPG's Do. People pay big bucks for low pop modern coins! Get used to it cause nothing you do or say will ever change that.
Now get out of bed YaHa, I wanna gripe at you!
The name is LEE!
Actually Jim - NO 70's whatsoever. I have slabbed closing in on nearly 5,000 PR69DCAM Ikes now without a single 70 since the end of the 2nd quarter of 2007. I have tied up well into six figures of money on the project since then and now have the privilege of selling roughly 5,000 coins at near break even. You see, no one ever discusses the losses and the pain of trying to produce top pop moderns - we only read about that sole MS70 Pres $1 or that nearly impossible to slab DEL 70. Anyone want to buy 500 freshly slabbed PCGS-PR69DCAM Ike 11-pc sets (5,500 coins)? I'm just a PM away to discuss it - you can even go on TV with them if that is in your plans!!
Wondercoin
Did you submit only those that you thought had a shot at 70?
Wondercoin
Submitting 5,000 coins thinking that they warrant a 70 and getting 5,000 69s in return means: (1) you can't distinguish them, (2) the grading companies can't distinguish them, or (3) they're indistinguishable. No?
Wondercoin
Why submit those 99%+ if you expect to do no better than break even? It seems like it would make more sense just to submit the 1% on which you expect to make money. I must be misunderstanding something in your explanation.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I wish I could tell you that I was trying to get frequent flyer points, but PCGS does not take credit cards over $2,500/month I believe. LOL
I did have a decent reason though IGWT. Will you be at Long Beach tomorrow? I would be happy to tell you there.
Wondercoin
PA - It is, for all practical purposes, nearly next to impossible at this time IMHO. And, as Datentype mentioned, a truly deserving piece is nothing short of a masterpiece though. Obviously, not for everyone -just as a 41-S Walker for $90,000 is not for everyone or a $325,000 Buffalo nickel or even a $140,000 Washington quarter. The $20,000 PR70DCAM Clad Ike (pre-1977) would comfortably fit in with the other coins I mentioned. PCGS has graded -1- specimen in 22 years!!! Wondercoin
The same thing goes on here as what goes on in the diamond game.Liken how the market supply of MS70's is controlled to how the market supply of gem quality diamonds is controlled and the puzzle pieces will start to fall in place for coin folks.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i> does not the tpg control how many 70's are produced or not? that is what i call an artificially restricted supply?
The same thing goes on here as what goes on in the diamond game.Liken how the market supply of MS70's is controlled to how the market supply of gem quality diamonds is controlled and the puzzle pieces will start to fall in place for coin folks. >>
It's just criminal the way they restrict the flow of MS-68 bust coinage. It's all
just a racket. Look at the populations of MS-65 1933 Saints!!!
Camelot
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I wish I could tell you that I was trying to get frequent flyer points, but PCGS does not take credit cards over $2,500/month I believe. LOL I did have a decent reason though IGWT. Will you be at Long Beach tomorrow? I would be happy to tell you there.
Alas, I'm sitting in an office at work (well, at least pretending to work) on the wrong coast.
Those are the perceptions that someone needs to correct if they're wrong. It's no answer to say that similar situations exist in segments of the market for older coins. They do; but, one wrong does not excuse another. And chasing one point seems to reach the apex of folly (or nadir, depending on one's viewpoint) in the 69/70 modern market.
Goes to 68 or worse.The 70 and 69 grades only exist for coins or bullion pieces surrounded by TPG plastic.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>...the value of a TPG-graded 70 plummets to the value of a 69 the moment that it's removed from the holder.
Goes to 68 or worse.The 70 and 69 grades only exist for coins or bullion pieces surrounded by TPG plastic. >>
When we sell a car, do we wash it ? Wax it ? Prepare it for presentation ?
When we sell a house, do we clean it, paint it or prep it for presentation ?
Why are coins under such scrutiny by grade and value ?
I'm not trying to fan flames , but things are so simple to me that I cannot understand the vehemence that some people express in regards to this hobby, trade, industry or game of numismatics.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
When we sell a car, do we wash it ? Wax it ? Prepare it for presentation ?
When we sell a house, do we clean it, paint it or prep it for presentation ?
Are you saying THE reason we put coins in TPG plastic is to sell them?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
IGWT - No exactly. I mentioned that I would not offer any of my spectacular PR69DC coins for sale above the cost of a regular 69 graded coin at this time as, IMHO, the market has not "evolved" to that point. However, I, personally, would happily BUY these same coins for huge premiums if offered to me. Let's start with the 1973-S or 1974-S Clad Ike which is worth about $30 in PR69DCAM today. I am a buyer at 100x that sum - $3,000/coin today - SIGHT-SEEN for a spectacular example of each that appear flawless to me in their PCGS-PR69DC holders. Who has got one? Wondercoin
P.S. - If I do not buy your coin, I will show you why your coin is not flawless as well.
<< <i>The truth comes across to some "vehemently," i suppose.
When we sell a car, do we wash it ? Wax it ? Prepare it for presentation ?
When we sell a house, do we clean it, paint it or prep it for presentation ?
Are you saying THE reason we put coins in TPG plastic is to sell them? >>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) I thought "vehemence" was a great term for what I'm reading here
2) Yes, we put coins in plastic to sell when we treat coins as "marketable"
3) No, we put coins in plastic to protect them in our collection if we treat coins as a "hobby"
4) Yes, we put coins in plastic and number them to play a "game" in a registry race.
4) No, we don't put coins in plastic to show the "industry" that it's a serious hobby, game and market.
Any more questions and you'll have to contact my attorney
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Bid is now @ $ 9400 with 4 1/2 hours to go.
Delaware Qtr - silver - PR70DCAM on Teletrade 6/16/08
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>Teletrade auction 2533 lot 2397 Silver Delaware statehood quarter for $10,500. I think it's nice there are only 20 of these but there is a huge risk if more of these get grade a 70 grade from PCGS and with millions of sets out there for $10,000 I think GOlD would be a better investment.
I wonder if the person that bought this coin is George Wilson on the Show Denace the Menace?
This is a opinion, if you don't like go jump in a lake.
"Millions of sets"????
morris
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
For $10,500 I could be persuaded to give it another shot.
I knew it would happen.
1) There are DEFINATELY 70's in 69 slabs!
2) There are DEFINATELY 69's in 70 slabs!
3) Nobody here could pick 3 70's out of a group of 10 coins, in which 3 were 70's, and 7 were 69's! This applies to either service.
4) Neither service could accomplish #3 above! (This one is my personal opinion...)
5) Aside from Registry points. MOST 69's are just as nice as MOST 70's
I believe, if it were done honestly, and with coins that were not familiar to the individual, nobody could accomplish #3.
If anyone wants to pay moon money for a PERCEIVED "Perfect" coin, it is certainly their business, but I wouldn't recommend it to a new collector....
the same amount of points for both 69s and 70s. As in this would solve the huge
registry competition at those levels for most people. You would have many more
tied finest sets... but that is no fun ;-) you need a clear winner to get the people
into a coin frenzy.
but i suppose i am blaming too much on the registry set competitions? i am unclear
how much frenzy was taking place with 70s before the registry set existed... or were
there so few 70s it was not even a problem in the first place due to stricter grading
standards. when a 68 meant something really special...
<< <i>When I look closely at the silver proof Statehood Quarters, I find that I have trouble looking for imperfections that might disqualify a coin from a very high grade (i.e., a 70).
For $10,500 I could be persuaded to give it another shot.
A lot of people don't realize how narrow the quality range is on a lot of these
coins. Obviously it's wider with some than others but with some most coins
are clustered around PR-68 or 69. Telling these apart can take quite a bit of
learning since it sure isn't like grading large cents. I have a little more confi-
dence in the ability of graders to differentiate the proofs simply because there
aren't so many confounding factors to rate.
If you can't tell these apart it's probably because you don't have the experience
and it's probably unwise to pay the premium for the higher grade.
I don't know how much activity there was in looking for the finest proofs before
the registries since I paid little attention to proofs but can tell you this; proof
rolls and singles were quite common and were invariably picked over. Some-
body was sure looking for the varieties and gems.
and it's probably unwise to pay the premium for the higher grade."
cladking,
I think, in a nutshell, that is basically what fc was saying. Since most people (and possibly most graders) cannot really tell 69's and 70's apart, the huge money is being paid for someone's opinion (read that as "best guess"). So, unless you are that person that can truly distinguish the "70", you shouldn't buy it. It then follows that, unless you can find that "special" buyer, who can also distinguish that it is a "true" 70, you can't sell it for big bucks. I think the real question is:
Does a real difference exist between 69's and 70's? From what I've seen, the difference is in the graders opinion, not in the coin.