<< <i>All the comments regarding the "stupidity" of spending $10,500 on a PR70 DCAM State Quarter simply amaze me!
Exactly what is so stupid about this? What?
It seems to me that all the "stupid" comments are being leveled by folks that have a minimal understanding about collector's and what they are all about!
As for choosing to spend your $10,500 on something else, great! Do it, but why criticize someone for paying good money for something "they" like simply because "you" wouldn't or because "you" do not understand?
All I can say is that the collector's of Modern Coinage are every bit as serious about what they collect as the classic guys and some of the classic guys need to take a couple of steps back and reflect on why they spend as much as they do on their collections. Not every coin is bought with the sole intent of turning a buck. Some are actually bought because folks want nothing but the best in their personal collections. >>
pfft. these same people would never consider buying the coin raw for the same price. plastic lovers. without the hand holding of a tpg these folks would never have bid coins like this up to these levels. let the word out on the bourse that slightly more liberal grading is back in vogue. resubmit time for all those 69s! >>
Careful now as it sounds like you are saying that the TPG's manipulate the coin market just to keep their stock up which is not only unethical from an SEC standpoint but could get some hands slapped. TPG's grade coins, buyer's dictate price. Buyer's are controlled by series popularity and right now modern high grade coins bring modern high prices.
As for the "buying it raw" statement, I can't begin to count or remember the number of times that newbie's are told to NEVER buy an 09SVDB or a 55/55 or some other coin raw. If anything at all the TPG's have added that level of protection for coin buyers and value. >>
tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation. sounds good huh? manipulate or whatever you want to call it is fine with me. i cannot explain the lack of consistency except to compete with another certain tpg, fresh blood in the grading room, or what not.
as for buying things raw.. well heck, people do buy classics raw when they feel up to it and pay good money for them. as for these modern coins in condition rarity, they offer next to nothing. 10 bucks. 20 bucks. 50 bucks. never 5000 bucks. it takes kool-aid for that to happen.
show me a raw modern that was considered high grade and a top notch price? cannot find one eh?
on the flip side, we can show many many classics being sold raw getting comparable money to their slabbed cousins. check out stacks coin auctions which have many raw coins for sale.
where is this modern coin auction website where i can see pee dollars raw selling for multi thousands of dollars? >>
"tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation"??
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
Not every coin that gets graded is graded by the same group of individual's which accounts for varying degree's of perceived "inconsistency". Grading is and always will be a matter of consensus as there are never any absolutes. This is the primary reason that we pay TPG's for their grading opinions which they back with their "grading guarantee". Your raw opinion will not guarantee me your coins grade. Buying a raw coin, sight unseen from Stacks or Heritage or any number of other auction houses carries the same exact risk. Their opinion vs your's with no accompanying guarantee's other than a return policy with a restocking fee.
"show me a raw modern that was considered high grade and a top notch price? cannot find one eh?"
We're not talking RAW coins here, we're talking graded coins. We're talking high grade, graded, modern coins which folks pay high premiums for. Not high grade raw coins, not high grade pocket change but high grade, professionally graded modern coins that come with professional grading guarantee's. Look at the 2003 Lincoln that graded MS70 and was purchased for $13,500. It developed a carbon spot yet PCGS backed their MS70 grade with CASH! The buyer, a forum member, reported that he was very pleased with the buy back.
Why do you continue to pull this "raw" card out and play it on the table since we are not talking "RAW" coins anyway?
<< <i>you mean what the plastic with the little label saying 70 is worth to them. the coin is rather meaningless, after all bust it out and sell it raw and they shy away. ooohh now it is not the same coin.. i am a pansy collector who requires that slip of paper to make my purchase "seem" legit. just look at that pop report! >>
No, I'm a smart collector that enjoys the comfort that the TPG's grading guarantee provides because it affords me at least some of my purchase price should asomething be wrong with the coin.
You're grasping at straws now friend. If you don't like plastic that's fine with me but please don't refer to me or other modern collector's as a pansy collectors!
I guess I just don't understand why some folks continue to diss what other people collect just for the sake of dissing!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation"??
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
man o man. there is a whole cottage industry based around cracking out older graded coins for upgrades. i cant understand how you would even argue that point. the trend is to inflate grades up and rank coins. simple as that.
-----
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value. crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69 perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that is folly.
a grade guarantee on a 70 huh? that is your reasoning... and if a silver round in 70 gets spot i am not quite sure you will be made whole at the prices that get tossed around for these priceless "rare" coins. take note that your one example was well publicized. what about the ASE collectors getting boned?
lets face it, the modern 70 collectors simply want to have the biggest johnson and a piece of paper says so!
i cannot argue this anymore in this thread. we are going in circles. the points i am making have been made so many times before i am just hoping newer folks see the light and do not waste money on these 70 coins. i hope they can find enjoyment on a poor poor 69.
Call me crazy, but I expect that in the next 12-24 months I will need many of the 1999 State quarters. I will be shopping and I expect that the "Key" and most expensive purchase will be that Delaware Silver. I will pick one up...Probably from one of the boys on the board.
If you collect a set, do you stop short and say thats good enough?
There are 22 guys/gals that wanted that coin. I might just be # 23 !!
<< <i>WOW !!! I better go & check my 99' silver sets to see if I may have some 70DCAMs... >>
Go check, mine wouldn't pass. They do turn in the holders as Datenype (Mark) has noted above.
If it were really that easy, the pop would be a lot higher and demand wouldn't be there.
Goodluck, I would be curious on the "Project Cost" as Mitch and Mark have pointed out. Even with regrades (crackouts)...It's about as easy as winning the lottery on a whim.
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value. crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69 perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that is folly.
>>
I don't understand why people fixate on this. Let's say you have a hundred MS-70's and break them all out without damaging them. Do you really think that fewer than 80 or 90% will come back in a lower grade? Doesn't this make them worth at least 80 or 90% of the MS-70 price even out of the plastic?
It's the same way with all coins; if you choose nice specimens you'll do better than if you pick run of the mill.
<< <i>...it has been shown that the depth of the market for these types of coins is greater than one would think. This is often the case in the nutty coin biz (ie. "supply begets demand"). My best guess is that the price of these would not be negatively affected by the appearance on the market of one or two more of these. >>
Maybe so...but this is not how I would spend my money.
I would be willing to bet some of the modern 70's have been to a body shop on the way to the TPG's.
There is a upside to this modern crap. You can jump in roll your sleves up and maybe find one on your own. Then you can sell it for those crazy prices. I would be willing to bet Wondercoin and his son have found a few nice proofs/coins/errors from all the hours they have spent searching. I do it on a much smaller level but have a great time doing it. Everymonth when the wife and i get done with the circ. wheat bags, unc rolls of memorials, it is over to proof/mint sets and boexs of presidential dollars. The raw ones are out there for the finding. Of couse others perfer to write the big checks. I need to send in what i have put back and see if the God's at the TPG agree with me. My ebay title may not help the sale out come. "modern crap PCGS PF70 $10,500 "
I would be willing to place a wager on 10 pcgs pf 70's, crack em out and resubmitt only 4 come pack 70. No way the TPG would grade 10 70's in a row from the same person.
I thought it was a known fact on x percent can possibly make a 70 at PCGS anyway. I will take my 70's in a modern chinesse slab Shipping is a little high but the coin can even be real in this case. Hope they get the flag on the back right. Do not want the flag od zumbrea in place of south carolina.
How much do you stand to get back from PCGS on a 10k quarter when it tanks to a 69. The pcgs sheet price between the 2? I bet a sea of red forms right before the payoff.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Pennieannie - Interestingly, over the past roughly -9- years, I believe we have slabbed only -4- PCGS-PR70DC Silver Delawares (one of which in a joint venture) of the -22- total. It has been one of the most difficult moderns to slab considering how many thousands of sets I have submitted over the years. The only modern perhaps more difficult to slab generally speaking being the Proof Ike Dollars in 70 with the possible exception of 1978-S which is a little easier date. For example, I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins. My very nicest specimen out of all of these PR69DC coins is as perfect as perfect can be (just short of "PCGS perfect" I guess). The coin would sell for about $20,000 if it slabbed PR70DC. In PR69DC, the typical coin is a $25 coin. Unlike the classic market, the modern market has not "evolved" (notice the quotation marks) yet such that this PR69.99 coin I own might command $5,000 or even $10,000 in the current PR69DCAM holder and I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing?
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins.
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit!
<< <i>I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins.
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit! >>
Some folks' coins are not as ugly as their opinion of some folks. Trying to succeed is much more inspirational than succeeding in futility.
<< <i>I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins.
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit! >>
Some folks' coins are not as ugly as their opinion of some folks. Trying to succeed is much more inspirational than succeeding in futility. >>
nice inspirational post. it made me tear up. i notice though, that you did not dispute what i said. a lot of truth to it that modern makers do not care to discuss when they are biased by the fact they wish to make money playing the coin grading game.
many here know the score and simply do not state it as bluntly as i tend to do.
if the grade does not fit, resubmit is funny for a reason.
<< <i>Is this really any different than looking for an undergraded Buffalo nickel, Mercury Dime or Lincoln penny?
Then sending them in to see if the the TPG's agreed with you.
Isn't that something we all look for on the bourse floor or auction. This is cherry picking at it's best. >>
in my mind finding a merc dime graded 64 with a shot 65 is playing on the inconsistency of the tpgs. it is all a game of plastic. send it to ngc first for an easier upgrade then cross to pcgs. all a game. get that 65, send it back raw, and lo and behold, 64 again. then 64 again, and again, but several times down the road a 65. hmm. what is the true grade? you are splitting hairs and wanking on the naive buyers wish for a label stating a slightly higher grade.
a 69 to a 70 is wanting near perfect flawless to be called near perfect flawless but with a 70. once again just playing a game of plastic and hoping for the big score. crack out the 70 and more then likely it will 69 a few times and maybe back to 70 again. but of course no one cracks out 70s.. the amount of money they would lose is stupendous if it never gets back in the "right plastic holder".
grade inflation also makes people think cherry picking is somehow easier then it should be. if you had consistency in grading over the last two decades.. cherry picking an upgrade would be much tougher.
people believe that little label more then their own senses and abilities. brainwashed into thinking it is accurate when the reality is they bought a MS64 in a MS66 holder. They bought a near flawless 69 in a 70 holder.
it is all so humorous. i always wondered how dealers keep a straight face while dealing coins.
fc, if you spent as much time exposing the coin doctors that putty your beloved coins as you do knocking modern makers and collectors who are seeking and selling the cream of the crop, this place would be better off. I don't care if a guy has Nike on his hat or Jaguar on his hood. Who cares how many times he takes his jalopy to the shop or his shoes to the cobbler ? That's his business. Crashing parties is juvenile, at best. Do you picket the gas stations, too ?
I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins. My very nicest specimen out of all of these PR69DC coins is as perfect as perfect can be (just short of "PCGS perfect" I guess). The coin would sell for about $20,000 if it slabbed PR70DC. In PR69DC, the typical coin is a $25 coin. Unlike the classic market, the modern market has not "evolved" (notice the quotation marks) yet such that this PR69.99 coin I own might command $5,000 or even $10,000 in the current PR69DCAM holder and I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing?
1000-2000? What kind of number is this other than imprecise? And your PR69.99 designation is not precise, it's ridiculous. I think we can all accept that you can ask whatever ridiculous price you want for your "just short of PCGS perfect" Ike but why not just keep trying for the PR70DC designation?
One of these days the graders will conclude that they are truly tired of seeing this coin and give you what you want.After all,you paid for it somewhere between 1000 and 2000.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I would be willing to place a wager on 10 pcgs pf 70's, crack em out and resubmitt only 4 come pack 70. No way the TPG would grade 10 70's in a row from the same person.
Interesting remark.One of ICG's selling points,if you will,was that identity of the submitter was unknown to the graders.The theory was that favoring some submitters over others would not happen.
I just irony first thing in the morning with my coffee.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>"tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation"??
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
man o man. there is a whole cottage industry based around cracking out older graded coins for upgrades. i cant understand how you would even argue that point. the trend is to inflate grades up and rank coins. simple as that.
-----
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value. crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69 perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that is folly.
a grade guarantee on a 70 huh? that is your reasoning... and if a silver round in 70 gets spot i am not quite sure you will be made whole at the prices that get tossed around for these priceless "rare" coins. take note that your one example was well publicized. what about the ASE collectors getting boned?
lets face it, the modern 70 collectors simply want to have the biggest johnson and a piece of paper says so!
i cannot argue this anymore in this thread. we are going in circles. the points i am making have been made so many times before i am just hoping newer folks see the light and do not waste money on these 70 coins. i hope they can find enjoyment on a poor poor 69.
i have to admit though it was fun! >>
Matt you gotta quit editing your posts.................
I'm gonna take a snippet out of this last one and zoom in on it.
<< <i>you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that is folly. >>
The 1 point "folly" exists across all facets of coin collecting and is not limited to just the 69/70 line.
Washington 1968 MS67=$315 MS68=$9,000 Washington 1968-D MS67 $150 MS68=$8,000 Kennedy 1964-D MS67=$1400 MS68=$15,000 Lincoln 1930 MS67=$950 MS68=$13,750 Lincoln 1937 MS67=$165 MS68=$14,500 Morgan 1921-S MS65=$900 MS66=$10,000
Each and every 1 point grade difference is arguable by someone somewhere who either doesn't appreciate or understand the difference's.
It sound as if the real problem lies within the 69-70 border and not just a 1 point "folly".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I would be willing to place a wager on 10 pcgs pf 70's, crack em out and resubmitt only 4 come pack 70. No way the TPG would grade 10 70's in a row from the same person. >>
<< <i>fc, if you spent as much time exposing the coin doctors that putty your beloved coins as you do knocking modern makers and collectors who are seeking and selling the cream of the crop, this place would be better off. I don't care if a guy has Nike on his hat or Jaguar on his hood. Who cares how many times he takes his jalopy to the shop or his shoes to the cobbler ? That's his business. Crashing parties is juvenile, at best. Do you picket the gas stations, too ? >>
You can't sit at your computer have fun bashing coin doctors as nobody is going to defend them. It is only fun to pick a fight if there is someone to fight with. We are probably better off to just ignore his malicious posts like above. --jerry
"1000-2000? What kind of number is this other than imprecise?"
Mr1984- I believe you may have misread my entire comment (written to evoke conversation). First, as to the imprecise 1000-2000 PR69DCAM's - I just didn't want to state 2,000 and be exaggerating and since it was 12:30 a.m. I figured 1000-2000 was a safer number. But, for purposes of this discussion, let's call it 1,794 -OK?
Second, you comment about me offering a PR69.999 for big money -I was saying just the opposite. There is no "evolved" modern market (yet) to offer these particular PR69DC coins for much over $25 (and I never have nor would I), whether they are PR69.99 or PR69.01 quality. And, this may be a very good thing AS THE SKILLED COLECTOR CAN STILL GO OUT INTO THE MARKET PLACE AND BUY A SUPER CLOSE TO "FIVE FIGURE COIN" - PQ+++ COIN -FOR $25!!! Similar to the 1960's with Morgan Dollars!! You gotta love that from the collector standpoint?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
-- I don't understand why people fixate on this. Let's say you have a hundred MS-70's and break them all out without damaging them. Do you really think that fewer than 80 or 90% will come back in a lower grade? Doesn't this make them worth at least 80 or 90% of the MS-70 price even out of the plastic? --
I have no idea what percentage will come back in a lower grade, but I tend to doubt that there would be a buyer for the Delaware 25c at $8,400 to $9,450 if the coin were not slabbed.
fc: I have also been trying to make a PCGS-MS67RD 1909-svdb Lincoln cent for 20 years now - buying coins / submitting coins along the way to try to accomplish that feat one day!! Is there a difference between that and my quest for the 76 Ty2 Ike? What is it?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that others may make.
Mr1984- I believe you may have misread my entire comment (written to evoke conversation). First, as to the imprecise 1000-2000 PR69DCAM's - I just didn't want to state 2,000 and be exaggerating and since it was 12:30 a.m. I figured 1000-2000 was a safer number. But, for purposes of this discussion, let's call it 1,794 -OK?
Lets call it 1874,wonderfulofitcoin.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that others may make. >>
I don't make money off of these coins (at least not yet), and you're still wrong. Go back and read all these threads and try substituting Morgan everywhere you see modern.
There is simply no justification to believe it is foolhardy, pointless, counterproductive, pot- entially bankrupting, or wrong to collect any modern.
It's much easier to build an argument that the moderns are the better coins to collect for any reason than the classics but this hardly means there's anything wrong with classics. In the final analysis collectors are going to focus on what interests them the most and this is generally going to be old items and this is as it should be I suppose.
Even here though moderns are fast approaching a half century in age.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that others may make. >>
I don't think Jerry was referring to you but I could be wrong..................but here you go again on that 69-70 line!
Lets discuss the MS67-MS68 line for Lincolns or better yet, the MS68-MS69 line for that 1919 Lincoln! I'll bet that one goes right off the charts as far as price goes.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"It's much easier to build an argument that the moderns are the better coins to collect for any reason than the classics"
I believe I gave one example - highly motivated modern collectors can easily pursue the "one grade under" coins in superior quality and, quite possibly, be building something special for the years ahead.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that others may make. >>
Large ONE point price spreads exist in all coins, modern and classic.
If you don't want to pay the premiums or find the top pop coins. Collect undergrades. There is no disgrace in doing that. AND it is a lot cheaper.
That works for many people. You seem like a perfect example of that mind set. And when you want to sell your undergrade collection, the local B&M coin shop can handle the deal easily.
It seems absurd to me, but to each his own. A co-worker said he has dropped $10K into a 70's muscle car, "just as a hobby". All I could think was "imagine the coins (or coin ) you could buy with that, and actually come away with something of value". Why do people watching reality shows instead of reading a book? Because they choose to.
<< <i>It seems absurd to me, but to each his own. A co-worker said he has dropped $10K into a 70's muscle car, "just as a hobby"
<< <i>
I'm sorry, But I am a car guy too. 10K is nothing when it comes to restoration of a classic car.
Paint alone can cost more than that.
Coins are expensive at certain levels and so are cars. In fact, Believe it or not. Cars can be even more expensive than coins in many cases.
I always remember, the comment that my wife says about a new "acquisition"...
You paid how much for a Dollar coin? Or ..You paid how much for that penny? As if it makes it worse, since it is only a penny. The car guys would laugh back since they can go out on cruise in their "Investment", while yours hides out in "The shade" of a bank safe deposit box.
Who got the better deal? ...Does it really matter? To each, his own.....
<< <i>It seems absurd to me, but to each his own. A co-worker said he has dropped $10K into a 70's muscle car, "just as a hobby" >>
>>
I'm sorry, But I am a car guy too. 10K is nothing when it comes to restoration of a classic car.
Paint alone can cost more than that.
Coins are expensive at certain levels and so are cars. In fact, Believe it or not. Cars can be even more expensive than coins in many cases.
I always remember, the comment that my wife says about a new "acquisition"...
You paid how much for a Dollar coin? Or ..You paid how much for that penny? As if it makes it worse, since it is only a penny. The car guys would laugh back since they can go out on cruise in their "Investment", while yours hides out in "The shade" of a bank safe deposit box.
Who got the better deal? ...Does it really matter? To each, his own..... >>
My point exactly with my post. Everybody has their own specific taste's in what they want to do so why put them down? If you don't understand it then just deal with it!
Edited to add: The Modern Coin Collector's certainly do not need to be "Saved" from their errant way's as they are fully aware of what they like and what they want to collect.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that others may make. >>
Large ONE point price spreads exist in all coins, modern and classic.
If you don't want to pay the premiums or find the top pop coins. Collect undergrades. There is no disgrace in doing that. AND it is a lot cheaper.
That works for many people. You seem like a perfect example of that mind set. And when you want to sell your undergrade collection, the local B&M coin shop can handle the deal easily. >>
heh. and when these 70s drop like a rock in the near future when the hobby goes through the phases it always does, the B&M will handle those just fine also. The whole 70 slabbed coins rely on the bigger fool theory to work out and so far people have been lucky that there is still more in line. Lets see how it shakes out over time, meaning years, not months.
cladking, for some reason you think i defend classics when in reality i have made no such attempt. we see the same exact problems in the classic arena too. Paying good money for morgans labeled 66 when most know they are 64. no different. Too much money not enough grading skills and logic.
The one major difference is that you crack out a classic coin and it holds its value significantly more then these top pop moderns. That cannot be argued. It is a fact. This easily means that all the value of a top pop modern is based on plastic and the greater fool theory taking place.
Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says 70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing.
"If you don't want to pay the premiums or find the top pop coins. Collect undergrades. There is no disgrace in doing that. AND it is a lot cheaper."
BINGO!! And, think of the enjoyment you can have locating a near perfect Delaware Silver PR69DCAM coin for less than $100!! To this day, my teenage daughter (who collects a MS set of state quarters from change) pursues superb quality Delaware Silvers!! For years, every time I get a batch of PR69DCAM coins back from PCGS she asks to "cherry-pick" my Delaware coins and essentially work off her hand-picked coins with chores. Of course, she only wants to pay $10 grading fee plus the cost of the raw Delaware as the cost of the "cherry-picked" coins - and why should she offer a penny more!! Good for her!!
I am curious why these COLLECTORS negatively commenting on collecting 70's are not highly advocating buildng high quality sets of 69 graded coins where one can pay $100 for a coin that jumps to $10,000 one point higher? Makes sense - no?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says 70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing. >>
fc, Modern collectors usually have roots in classic coins and understand both. Your statement here shows that you've kept your roots in classic, haven't bothered to learn moderns, and clearly don't understand them. You jump on the modern bashing bancwagon and wave every flag someone hands you. Even if you do believe your comments, what good do you achive by making them?
You make lots of negative comments here that cause some people to say that your heart is in a cold dark place or something like that. Yesterday, you somewhat apologized blaming it on wine and pain. For that I am sorry and wish you well. But I think you should try to focus on the positives you can get from the hobby instead of the negatives you can hurl at others.
heh. and when these 70s drop like a rock in the near future when the hobby goes through the phases it always does, the B&M will handle those just fine also. The whole 70 slabbed coins rely on the bigger fool theory to work out and so far people have been lucky that there is still more in line. Lets see how it shakes out over time, meaning years, not months.
cladking, for some reason you think i defend classics when in reality i have made no such attempt. we see the same exact problems in the classic arena too. Paying good money for morgans labeled 66 when most know they are 64. no different. Too much money not enough grading skills and logic.
The one major difference is that you crack out a classic coin and it holds its value significantly more then these top pop moderns. That cannot be argued. It is a fact. This easily means that all the value of a top pop modern is based on plastic and the greater fool theory taking place.
Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says 70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing. >>
I'm not sure why you're so confident that these are a bubble. I've seen lots of bubbles and every time it's been most of the hobby jumping on whatever just happens to get hot.
Very few collectors are jumping on these coins and most are actually warning that they are a bubble waiting to pop.
If this is a bubble it will prove to be unique.
In the meantime ALL collectors are best advised to collect what they like and not to invest in coins. It is always the "investment" that leads to bubbles and usually leads to losses for the individual as well.
Danm!!!!!!!! I didn't think this would be a Uncle Abert story.
Did any of you guys ever think if Y/N's and modern collectors chase and collect all of this new 70 grade coins that they will eventually collect Classic coins?
I really think they will, so paying $10.5k for a Case quarter that has what 1/4oz of silver that''s the buyers problem. To each it's own. Show me the money!!
Oh BTW spending $10k on classic cars that's a whole different box of wax. Classic cars are much easier to sell and are few in perfect shape. JMO/
Nothing wrong with collecting moderns for liking the coin. But this MS70 plastic thing is stupid.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
<< <i>Nothing wrong with collecting moderns for liking the coin. But this MS70 plastic thing is stupid. >>
Respectfully, I'll say that anyone who has a problem with MS70 doesn't understand that it is a grade just like AU58. Those who say it can't exist because there is no such thing as perfect are misinformed about the definition or have been reading too much Aristotle.
Perhaps you think people pay too much for it. Perhaps you have a point. It is human nature to "take all the best and leave the rest".
But it is no different that those paying top dollar for MS67 classics when 65s are available at 1/5 the price.
<< <i>Nothing wrong with collecting moderns for liking the coin. But this MS70 plastic thing is stupid. >>
Evidently it's only stupid if it is not a part of your specific submission! Not necessarily meaning you but folks do pull MS70's and PF70's off of their Silver, Gold or Platinum Eagle Submissions. Same is true for the Buffalo's and First Spouse coins along with the varieous Silver Commemoritives!
The MS70 blue's then usually turn into the MS70 "Hot Dam Thank You Man's" followed with a vigorous eBay Session and the clinking of coins as the cash rolls in!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
They are only stupid in my opinion if they are not really "perfect" upon examining them and PCGS is real tight on this - most of these coins are a real bargain for the prices they sell for currently. Yes you heard it here first BARGAIN!Text
Some of you would never really know until you had looked at 3,000 very modern proof sets and made only 10 or less in 70.
Holy Crap.....!!!!!...I didn't know a 69 coin was an " Undergrade ".....well excuse me ..!!! all you registry folks....I'm just a regular collector who thinks that a 69 coin is ...well ... is as good as it gets.And if you folks wanna fork over five figures for that extra one point on the label ..well..go right ahead....
<< <i>Holy Crap.....!!!!!...I didn't know a 69 coin was an " Undergrade ".....well excuse me ..!!! all you registry folks....I'm just a regular collector who thinks that a 69 coin is ...well ... is as good as it gets.And if you folks wanna fork over five figures for that extra one point on the label ..well..go right ahead.... >>
Correction. In many coins, the 69 is the highest grade and no 70's exist.
I want a 2007-D SF Lincoln cent in ms70 !!
Mitch or Mark can make one anytime, Right??
Oh, and the 69 goes for $ 450.00.
If there is one that ever makes it....That will be one expensive point.
How much you paying for one of these? It would be in the slab of course.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing. Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and promotion."
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All the comments regarding the "stupidity" of spending $10,500 on a PR70 DCAM State Quarter simply amaze me!
Exactly what is so stupid about this? What?
It seems to me that all the "stupid" comments are being leveled by folks that have a minimal understanding about collector's and what they are all about!
As for choosing to spend your $10,500 on something else, great! Do it, but why criticize someone for paying good money for something "they" like simply because "you" wouldn't or because "you" do not understand?
All I can say is that the collector's of Modern Coinage are every bit as serious about what they collect as the classic guys and some of the classic guys need to take a couple of steps back and reflect on why they spend as much as they do on their collections. Not every coin is bought with the sole intent of turning a buck. Some are actually bought because folks want nothing but the best in their personal collections. >>
pfft. these same people would never consider buying the coin
raw for the same price. plastic lovers. without the hand holding
of a tpg these folks would never have bid coins like this up to
these levels. let the word out on the bourse that slightly
more liberal grading is back in vogue. resubmit time for all those
69s! >>
Careful now as it sounds like you are saying that the TPG's manipulate the coin market just to keep their stock up which is not only unethical from an SEC standpoint but could get some hands slapped. TPG's grade coins, buyer's dictate price. Buyer's are controlled by series popularity and right now modern high grade coins bring modern high prices.
As for the "buying it raw" statement, I can't begin to count or remember the number of times that newbie's are told to NEVER buy an 09SVDB or a 55/55 or some other coin raw. If anything at all the TPG's have added that level of protection for coin buyers and value. >>
tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal
with a constant theme of grade inflation. sounds good huh? manipulate or whatever you want to call it is fine with me. i cannot
explain the lack of consistency except to compete with another
certain tpg, fresh blood in the grading room, or what not.
as for buying things raw.. well heck, people do buy classics raw
when they feel up to it and pay good money for them. as for these
modern coins in condition rarity, they offer next to nothing. 10 bucks.
20 bucks. 50 bucks. never 5000 bucks. it takes kool-aid for that to
happen.
show me a raw modern that was considered high grade and a top
notch price? cannot find one eh?
on the flip side, we can show many many classics being sold raw
getting comparable money to their slabbed cousins. check out stacks
coin auctions which have many raw coins for sale.
where is this modern coin auction website where i can see pee dollars
raw selling for multi thousands of dollars? >>
"tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation"??
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
Not every coin that gets graded is graded by the same group of individual's which accounts for varying degree's of perceived "inconsistency". Grading is and always will be a matter of consensus as there are never any absolutes. This is the primary reason that we pay TPG's for their grading opinions which they back with their "grading guarantee". Your raw opinion will not guarantee me your coins grade. Buying a raw coin, sight unseen from Stacks or Heritage or any number of other auction houses carries the same exact risk. Their opinion vs your's with no accompanying guarantee's other than a return policy with a restocking fee.
"show me a raw modern that was considered high grade and a top notch price? cannot find one eh?"
We're not talking RAW coins here, we're talking graded coins. We're talking high grade, graded, modern coins which folks pay high premiums for. Not high grade raw coins, not high grade pocket change but high grade, professionally graded modern coins that come with professional grading guarantee's. Look at the 2003 Lincoln that graded MS70 and was purchased for $13,500. It developed a carbon spot yet PCGS backed their MS70 grade with CASH! The buyer, a forum member, reported that he was very pleased with the buy back.
Why do you continue to pull this "raw" card out and play it on the table since we are not talking "RAW" coins anyway?
<< <i>you mean what the plastic with the little label saying 70 is worth to them. the coin is rather meaningless, after all bust it out and sell it raw and they shy away. ooohh now it is not the same coin..
i am a pansy collector who requires that slip of paper to make my purchase "seem" legit. just look at that pop report! >>
No, I'm a smart collector that enjoys the comfort that the TPG's grading guarantee provides because it affords me at least some of my purchase price should asomething be wrong with the coin.
You're grasping at straws now friend. If you don't like plastic that's fine with me but please don't refer to me or other modern collector's as a pansy collectors!
I guess I just don't understand why some folks continue to diss what other people collect just for the sake of dissing!
The name is LEE!
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
man o man. there is a whole cottage industry based around cracking
out older graded coins for upgrades. i cant understand how you would
even argue that point. the trend is to inflate grades up and rank coins. simple as that.
-----
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value.
crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69
perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot
see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that
minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that
is folly.
a grade guarantee on a 70 huh? that is your reasoning... and if a silver
round in 70 gets spot i am not quite sure you will be made whole
at the prices that get tossed around for these priceless "rare" coins.
take note that your one example was well publicized. what about the
ASE collectors getting boned?
lets face it, the modern 70 collectors simply want to have the biggest
johnson and a piece of paper says so!
i cannot argue this anymore in this thread. we are going in circles.
the points i am making have been made so many times before i am just
hoping newer folks see the light and do not waste money on these
70 coins. i hope they can find enjoyment on a poor poor 69.
i have to admit though it was fun!
If you collect a set, do you stop short and say thats good enough?
There are 22 guys/gals that wanted that coin. I might just be # 23 !!
Oh, and I still need a nice '09 S VDB rd as well.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>WOW !!! I better go & check my 99' silver sets to see if I may have some 70DCAMs... >>
Go check, mine wouldn't pass. They do turn in the holders as Datenype (Mark) has noted above.
If it were really that easy, the pop would be a lot higher and demand wouldn't be there.
Goodluck, I would be curious on the "Project Cost" as Mitch and Mark have pointed out.
Even with regrades (crackouts)...It's about as easy as winning the lottery on a whim.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value.
crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69
perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot
see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that
minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that
is folly.
>>
I don't understand why people fixate on this. Let's say you have
a hundred MS-70's and break them all out without damaging them.
Do you really think that fewer than 80 or 90% will come back in a
lower grade? Doesn't this make them worth at least 80 or 90% of
the MS-70 price even out of the plastic?
It's the same way with all coins; if you choose nice specimens you'll
do better than if you pick run of the mill.
<< <i>...it has been shown that the depth of the market for these types of coins is greater than one would think. This is often the case in the nutty coin biz (ie. "supply begets demand"). My best guess is that the price of these would not be negatively affected by the appearance on the market of one or two more of these. >>
Maybe so...but this is not how I would spend my money.
Still, to each his own.
There is a upside to this modern crap. You can jump in roll your sleves up and maybe find one on your own. Then you can sell it for those crazy prices. I would be willing to bet Wondercoin and his son have found a few nice proofs/coins/errors from all the hours they have spent searching. I do it on a much smaller level but have a great time doing it. Everymonth when the wife and i get done with the circ. wheat bags, unc rolls of memorials, it is over to proof/mint sets and boexs of presidential dollars. The raw ones are out there for the finding. Of couse others perfer to write the big checks. I need to send in what i have put back and see if the God's at the TPG agree with me. My ebay title may not help the sale out come. "modern crap PCGS PF70 $10,500 "
I would be willing to place a wager on 10 pcgs pf 70's, crack em out and resubmitt only 4 come pack 70. No way the TPG would grade 10 70's in a row from the same person.
I thought it was a known fact on x percent can possibly make a 70 at PCGS anyway. I will take my 70's in a modern chinesse slab
How much do you stand to get back from PCGS on a 10k quarter when it tanks to a 69. The pcgs sheet price between the 2? I bet a sea of red forms right before the payoff.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these
days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not
make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them
but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit!
<< <i>I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins.
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these
days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not
make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them
but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit! >>
Some folks' coins are not as ugly as their opinion of some folks.
Trying to succeed is much more inspirational than succeeding in futility.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>I have been trying to slab a 1976 Ty 2 clad PR70DC Ike for about 10 years now with nothing to show for the effort other than 1,000 -2,000 PR69DC coins.
i read this as: i have been trying to play the plastic lotto for 10 years and one of these
days i will win and find a patsy to pass it off on. in the meantime these silly 69s do not
make me much and it is disappointing. i keep cracking them out and resubmitting them
but my luck has been in the gutter on them. one of these 69s will 70 some day and profit! >>
Some folks' coins are not as ugly as their opinion of some folks.
Trying to succeed is much more inspirational than succeeding in futility. >>
nice inspirational post. it made me tear up.
i notice though, that you did not dispute what i said. a lot of truth to it that
modern makers do not care to discuss when they are biased by the fact they
wish to make money playing the coin grading game.
many here know the score and simply do not state it as bluntly as i tend to do.
if the grade does not fit, resubmit is funny for a reason.
Then sending them in to see if the the TPG's agreed with you.
Isn't that something we all look for on the bourse floor or auction. This is cherry picking at it's best.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>Is this really any different than looking for an undergraded Buffalo nickel, Mercury Dime or Lincoln penny?
Then sending them in to see if the the TPG's agreed with you.
Isn't that something we all look for on the bourse floor or auction. This is cherry picking at it's best. >>
in my mind finding a merc dime graded 64 with a shot 65 is playing on the inconsistency
of the tpgs. it is all a game of plastic. send it to ngc first for an easier upgrade then cross
to pcgs. all a game. get that 65, send it back raw, and lo and behold, 64 again. then 64
again, and again, but several times down the road a 65. hmm. what is the true grade?
you are splitting hairs and wanking on the naive buyers wish for a label stating a slightly
higher grade.
a 69 to a 70 is wanting near perfect flawless to be called near perfect flawless but with a 70.
once again just playing a game of plastic and hoping for the big score. crack out the 70 and
more then likely it will 69 a few times and maybe back to 70 again. but of course no one
cracks out 70s.. the amount of money they would lose is stupendous if it never gets back
in the "right plastic holder".
grade inflation also makes people think cherry picking is somehow easier then it should be.
if you had consistency in grading over the last two decades.. cherry picking an upgrade
would be much tougher.
people believe that little label more then their own senses and abilities. brainwashed into
thinking it is accurate when the reality is they bought a MS64 in a MS66 holder. They bought
a near flawless 69 in a 70 holder.
it is all so humorous. i always wondered how dealers keep a straight face while dealing coins.
I don't care if a guy has Nike on his hat or Jaguar on his hood. Who cares how many times he takes his jalopy to the shop or his shoes to the cobbler ? That's his business.
Crashing parties is juvenile, at best. Do you picket the gas stations, too ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
1000-2000? What kind of number is this other than imprecise? And your PR69.99 designation is not precise, it's ridiculous. I think we can all accept that you can ask whatever ridiculous price you want for your "just short of PCGS perfect" Ike but why not just keep trying for the PR70DC designation?
One of these days the graders will conclude that they are truly tired of seeing this coin and give you what you want.After all,you paid for it somewhere between 1000 and 2000.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Interesting remark.One of ICG's selling points,if you will,was that identity of the submitter was unknown to the graders.The theory was that favoring some submitters over others would not happen.
I just
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>"tis a known fact tpg grading cycles through times of strict and liberal with a constant theme of grade inflation"??
Can you back your "known fact" with figures or are you simply qualifying your "fact" with your perception? Or worse yet, the combined perception of others?
man o man. there is a whole cottage industry based around cracking
out older graded coins for upgrades. i cant understand how you would
even argue that point. the trend is to inflate grades up and rank coins. simple as that.
-----
the fact of the matter is raw tells a lot about a coins true value.
crack out these modern 70s and what do you have? a lock 69
perhaps upon resubmission. i do not understand how you cannot
see this point. you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that
minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that
is folly.
a grade guarantee on a 70 huh? that is your reasoning... and if a silver
round in 70 gets spot i am not quite sure you will be made whole
at the prices that get tossed around for these priceless "rare" coins.
take note that your one example was well publicized. what about the
ASE collectors getting boned?
lets face it, the modern 70 collectors simply want to have the biggest
johnson and a piece of paper says so!
i cannot argue this anymore in this thread. we are going in circles.
the points i am making have been made so many times before i am just
hoping newer folks see the light and do not waste money on these
70 coins. i hope they can find enjoyment on a poor poor 69.
i have to admit though it was fun! >>
Matt you gotta quit editing your posts.................
I'm gonna take a snippet out of this last one and zoom in on it.
<< <i>you want a bit of plastic and paper to tell you that minute differences in a 69/70 is worth many multiples and i say that is folly. >>
The 1 point "folly" exists across all facets of coin collecting and is not limited to just the 69/70 line.
Washington 1968 MS67=$315 MS68=$9,000
Washington 1968-D MS67 $150 MS68=$8,000
Kennedy 1964-D MS67=$1400 MS68=$15,000
Lincoln 1930 MS67=$950 MS68=$13,750
Lincoln 1937 MS67=$165 MS68=$14,500
Morgan 1921-S MS65=$900 MS66=$10,000
Each and every 1 point grade difference is arguable by someone somewhere who either doesn't appreciate or understand the difference's.
It sound as if the real problem lies within the 69-70 border and not just a 1 point "folly".
The name is LEE!
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>I would be willing to place a wager on 10 pcgs pf 70's, crack em out and resubmitt only 4 come pack 70. No way the TPG would grade 10 70's in a row from the same person. >>
Linky 1
Whoops! That was only 7 out of 8 for 70's!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>fc, if you spent as much time exposing the coin doctors that putty your beloved coins as you do knocking modern makers and collectors who are seeking and selling the cream of the crop, this place would be better off. I don't care if a guy has Nike on his hat or Jaguar on his hood. Who cares how many times he takes his jalopy to the shop or his shoes to the cobbler ? That's his business. Crashing parties is juvenile, at best. Do you picket the gas stations, too ? >>
You can't sit at your computer have fun bashing coin doctors as nobody is going to defend them. It is only fun to pick a fight if there is someone to fight with. We are probably better off to just ignore his malicious posts like above. --jerry
Mr1984- I believe you may have misread my entire comment (written to evoke conversation). First, as to the imprecise 1000-2000 PR69DCAM's - I just didn't want to state 2,000 and be exaggerating and since it was 12:30 a.m. I figured 1000-2000 was a safer number. But, for purposes of this discussion, let's call it 1,794 -OK?
Second, you comment about me offering a PR69.999 for big money -I was saying just the opposite. There is no "evolved" modern market (yet) to offer these particular PR69DC coins for much over $25 (and I never have nor would I), whether they are PR69.99 or PR69.01 quality. And, this may be a very good thing AS THE SKILLED COLECTOR CAN STILL GO OUT INTO THE MARKET PLACE AND BUY A SUPER CLOSE TO "FIVE FIGURE COIN" - PQ+++ COIN -FOR $25!!! Similar to the 1960's with Morgan Dollars!! You gotta love that from the collector standpoint?
Wondercoin
I have no idea what percentage will come back in a lower grade, but I tend to doubt that there would be a buyer for the Delaware 25c at $8,400 to $9,450 if the coin were not slabbed.
Wondercoin
blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors
who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK
to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that
others may make.
Lets call it 1874,wonderfulofitcoin.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing
blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors
who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK
to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that
others may make. >>
I don't make money off of these coins (at least not yet), and you're still wrong. Go back
and read all these threads and try substituting Morgan everywhere you see modern.
There is simply no justification to believe it is foolhardy, pointless, counterproductive, pot-
entially bankrupting, or wrong to collect any modern.
It's much easier to build an argument that the moderns are the better coins to collect for
any reason than the classics but this hardly means there's anything wrong with classics.
In the final analysis collectors are going to focus on what interests them the most and
this is generally going to be old items and this is as it should be I suppose.
Even here though moderns are fast approaching a half century in age.
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind .... >>
Your post had malicious intent. It is very possible to politely disagree. --Jerry
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing
blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors
who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK
to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that
others may make. >>
I don't think Jerry was referring to you but I could be wrong..................but here you go again on that 69-70 line!
Lets discuss the MS67-MS68 line for Lincolns or better yet, the MS68-MS69 line for that 1919 Lincoln! I'll bet that one goes right off the charts as far as price goes.
The name is LEE!
I believe I gave one example - highly motivated modern collectors can easily pursue the "one grade under" coins in superior quality and, quite possibly, be building something special for the years ahead.
Wondercoin
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing
blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors
who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK
to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that
others may make. >>
Large ONE point price spreads exist in all coins, modern and classic.
If you don't want to pay the premiums or find the top pop coins.
Collect undergrades.
There is no disgrace in doing that.
AND it is a lot cheaper.
That works for many people. You seem like a perfect example of that mind set.
And when you want to sell your undergrade collection, the local B&M coin shop can handle the deal easily.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>It seems absurd to me, but to each his own. A co-worker said he has dropped $10K into a 70's muscle car, "just as a hobby"
<< <i>
I'm sorry, But I am a car guy too.
10K is nothing when it comes to restoration of a classic car.
Paint alone can cost more than that.
Coins are expensive at certain levels and so are cars.
In fact, Believe it or not.
Cars can be even more expensive than coins in many cases.
I always remember, the comment that my wife says about a new "acquisition"...
You paid how much for a Dollar coin? Or ..You paid how much for that penny?
As if it makes it worse, since it is only a penny.
The car guys would laugh back since they can go out on cruise in their "Investment", while yours hides out in "The shade" of a bank safe deposit box.
Who got the better deal?
...Does it really matter?
To each, his own.....
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems absurd to me, but to each his own. A co-worker said he has dropped $10K into a 70's muscle car, "just as a hobby" >>
I'm sorry, But I am a car guy too.
10K is nothing when it comes to restoration of a classic car.
Paint alone can cost more than that.
Coins are expensive at certain levels and so are cars.
In fact, Believe it or not.
Cars can be even more expensive than coins in many cases.
I always remember, the comment that my wife says about a new "acquisition"...
You paid how much for a Dollar coin? Or ..You paid how much for that penny?
As if it makes it worse, since it is only a penny.
The car guys would laugh back since they can go out on cruise in their "Investment", while yours hides out in "The shade" of a bank safe deposit box.
Who got the better deal?
...Does it really matter?
To each, his own..... >>
My point exactly with my post. Everybody has their own specific taste's in what they want to do so why put them down? If you don't understand it then just deal with it!
Edited to add: The Modern Coin Collector's certainly do not need to be "Saved" from their errant way's as they are fully aware of what they like and what they want to collect.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>woo! now i am considered malicious for speaking my mind and not agreeing
blissfully with people who make money off this boondoggle or the collectors
who have dove into the kool-aid head first.
oh yeah! that little label saying the coin is 70 versus a 69 makes every A-OK
to spend huge multiples for them and washes away any logical concern that
others may make. >>
Large ONE point price spreads exist in all coins, modern and classic.
If you don't want to pay the premiums or find the top pop coins.
Collect undergrades.
There is no disgrace in doing that.
AND it is a lot cheaper.
That works for many people. You seem like a perfect example of that mind set.
And when you want to sell your undergrade collection, the local B&M coin shop can handle the deal easily. >>
heh. and when these 70s drop like a rock in the near future when
the hobby goes through the phases it always does, the B&M will
handle those just fine also. The whole 70 slabbed coins rely on
the bigger fool theory to work out and so far people have been
lucky that there is still more in line. Lets see how it shakes out
over time, meaning years, not months.
cladking, for some reason you think i defend classics when in reality
i have made no such attempt. we see the same exact problems
in the classic arena too. Paying good money for morgans labeled
66 when most know they are 64. no different. Too much money
not enough grading skills and logic.
The one major difference is that you crack out a classic coin and it
holds its value significantly more then these top pop moderns. That
cannot be argued. It is a fact. This easily means that all the value
of a top pop modern is based on plastic and the greater fool theory
taking place.
Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such
thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster
in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says
70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing.
Collect undergrades.
There is no disgrace in doing that.
AND it is a lot cheaper."
BINGO!! And, think of the enjoyment you can have locating a near perfect Delaware Silver PR69DCAM coin for less than $100!! To this day, my teenage daughter (who collects a MS set of state quarters from change) pursues superb quality Delaware Silvers!! For years, every time I get a batch of PR69DCAM coins back from PCGS she asks to "cherry-pick" my Delaware coins and essentially work off her hand-picked coins with chores. Of course, she only wants to pay $10 grading fee plus the cost of the raw Delaware as the cost of the "cherry-picked" coins - and why should she offer a penny more!! Good for her!!
I am curious why these COLLECTORS negatively commenting on collecting 70's are not highly advocating buildng high quality sets of 69 graded coins where one can pay $100 for a coin that jumps to $10,000 one point higher? Makes sense - no?
Wondercoin
<< <i> Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says 70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing. >>
fc,
Modern collectors usually have roots in classic coins and understand both. Your statement here shows that you've kept your roots in classic, haven't bothered to learn moderns, and clearly don't understand them. You jump on the modern bashing bancwagon and wave every flag someone hands you. Even if you do believe your comments, what good do you achive by making them?
You make lots of negative comments here that cause some people to say that your heart is in a cold dark place or something like that. Yesterday, you somewhat apologized blaming it on wine and pain. For that I am sorry and wish you well. But I think you should try to focus on the positives you can get from the hobby instead of the negatives you can hurl at others.
--Jerry
<< <i>
heh. and when these 70s drop like a rock in the near future when
the hobby goes through the phases it always does, the B&M will
handle those just fine also. The whole 70 slabbed coins rely on
the bigger fool theory to work out and so far people have been
lucky that there is still more in line. Lets see how it shakes out
over time, meaning years, not months.
cladking, for some reason you think i defend classics when in reality
i have made no such attempt. we see the same exact problems
in the classic arena too. Paying good money for morgans labeled
66 when most know they are 64. no different. Too much money
not enough grading skills and logic.
The one major difference is that you crack out a classic coin and it
holds its value significantly more then these top pop moderns. That
cannot be argued. It is a fact. This easily means that all the value
of a top pop modern is based on plastic and the greater fool theory
taking place.
Such folly for a collector to desire "perfection" when there is no such
thing. Take that pres dollar that you can see issues with the luster
in some areas. Sure as struck, but hardly perfect. Yet the label says
70 and people suck it right up. Great marketing. >>
I'm not sure why you're so confident that these are a bubble. I've seen lots of
bubbles and every time it's been most of the hobby jumping on whatever just
happens to get hot.
Very few collectors are jumping on these coins and most are actually warning
that they are a bubble waiting to pop.
If this is a bubble it will prove to be unique.
In the meantime ALL collectors are best advised to collect what they like and not
to invest in coins. It is always the "investment" that leads to bubbles and usually
leads to losses for the individual as well.
Did any of you guys ever think if Y/N's and modern collectors chase and collect all of this new 70 grade coins that they will eventually collect Classic coins?
I really think they will, so paying $10.5k for a Case quarter that has what 1/4oz of silver that''s the buyers problem. To each it's own. Show me the money!!
Oh BTW spending $10k on classic cars that's a whole different box of wax. Classic cars are much easier to sell and are few in perfect shape. JMO/
<< <i>Nothing wrong with collecting moderns for liking the coin. But this MS70 plastic thing is stupid. >>
Respectfully, I'll say that anyone who has a problem with MS70 doesn't understand that it is a grade just like AU58. Those who say it can't exist because there is no such thing as perfect are misinformed about the definition or have been reading too much Aristotle.
Perhaps you think people pay too much for it. Perhaps you have a point. It is human nature to "take all the best and leave the rest".
But it is no different that those paying top dollar for MS67 classics when 65s are available at 1/5 the price.
--Jerry
<< <i>Nothing wrong with collecting moderns for liking the coin. But this MS70 plastic thing is stupid. >>
Evidently it's only stupid if it is not a part of your specific submission! Not necessarily meaning you but folks do pull MS70's and PF70's off of their Silver, Gold or Platinum Eagle Submissions. Same is true for the Buffalo's and First Spouse coins along with the varieous Silver Commemoritives!
The MS70 blue's then usually turn into the MS70 "Hot Dam Thank You Man's" followed with a vigorous eBay Session and the clinking of coins as the cash rolls in!
The name is LEE!
Some of you would never really know until you had looked at 3,000 very modern proof sets and made only 10 or less in 70.
<< <i>Holy Crap.....!!!!!...I didn't know a 69 coin was an " Undergrade ".....well excuse me ..!!! all you registry folks....I'm just a regular collector who thinks that a 69 coin is ...well ... is as good as it gets.And if you folks wanna fork over five figures for that extra one point on the label ..well..go right ahead....
Correction. In many coins, the 69 is the highest grade and no 70's exist.
I want a 2007-D SF Lincoln cent in ms70 !!
Mitch or Mark can make one anytime, Right??
Oh, and the 69 goes for $ 450.00.
If there is one that ever makes it....That will be one expensive point.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
How much you paying for one of these? It would be in the slab of course.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
"Actually, Cameron, the grading of moderns is the subject MOST about promotion and marketing.
Probably 99% of moderns are "as struck" or perfect under 5x (actual definitions of MS70) or have
such MINUTE flaws that it shouldn't matter. But when the grading services create a demand for coins
graded 70 that few can discern from 69s, then ration the grades by setting their own interpretation
of 70 so strict as to create an artificially small supply supporting unconscionable high prices for very
common modern trinkets -- and such artificially restricted supply and high priices FUELS the demand
and SUPPORTS the high prices -- THAT is ALL pure marketing and
promotion."
!!!