Give me one good reason, just one!!!!
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I hear it over and over again, "This is just a hobby for me" while in the background I hear the gnashing of teeth because some entity supposedly diminishes the enjoyment causes financial loss. That's akin to blaming the company that makes Ping Golf clubs when I have a bad round or thinking that the guy cutting the greens somehow has it in for us this week!!!!
Stupid, stupid, stupid.....................I kind of think that many here aren't really engaged in enjoying a Hobby, they're engaged in enjoying a financial vehicle that doesn't always turn out the way they like. Back to the Golf analogy again, I don't ever recall hearing any of my buddies getting upset when the sell the set of 4-year old clubs at a huge loss to buy a new set that they feel will drastically improve their game. And then we have coin collectors!!!
Give me one good reason, just one, why so many are loathe to admit they are investing money in the hobby and it chaps their ass when they post a loss, cause I just don't get it.
Al H.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.....................I kind of think that many here aren't really engaged in enjoying a Hobby, they're engaged in enjoying a financial vehicle that doesn't always turn out the way they like. Back to the Golf analogy again, I don't ever recall hearing any of my buddies getting upset when the sell the set of 4-year old clubs at a huge loss to buy a new set that they feel will drastically improve their game. And then we have coin collectors!!!
Give me one good reason, just one, why so many are loathe to admit they are investing money in the hobby and it chaps their ass when they post a loss, cause I just don't get it.
Al H.
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Admit it , you feel much better now , Don't you................
Dan
And I am a big boy and can take my loss too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
FOUR !!!
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Well said!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
...now I would like to "run" with your golf analogy...
I would liken using the opinion of a TPG to hiring a caddy for a round of golf...
If the caddy is a good one and has experience with the course...then he/she will be able to tell me what club I might do best with...best place to hit the ball...point out the rolls in the green, etc...
I do not need a caddy to simply carry my clubs...nor can the caddy take the shot for me...and, heck...I don't want him/her to...
My clubs...my balls...my game... but sound advice from experience is a good thing...
BUT...if this caddy can do little more than shrug shoulders and mumble "I dunno" (aka Questionable Color/Toning)...
...or guides me to the left side of the fairway...when it would have been best to go to the right...
...or tells me the putt will break to the left ( when I think it'll break to the right) ... I listen and it goes to the right...
...and then when I complain...the caddy suggests that we go another round...and I should pay more money...and maybe he'll give me different advice on the next round...
...well...
...with a caddy like that... might as well carry my own clubs and decide on my own shots...
How many times do we see Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Freddie Couples, or any PRO not using a caddy.
If they're good enough for the pros
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Al, I used to play golf. In 1967 I had a hole-in-one at the Great Lakes course. That was the last time I played. How could I get any better??
Well, there was a guy a few weeks ago who got two holes-in-one in the same round. Here's the story The odds on that were stated at 67 million to one. Would need to play a lot more rounds to get that! From someone without a hole-in-one, except in miniature golf.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>SeaEagleCoins, that's an awesome analogy. On a side note, I have one question :
How many times do we see Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Freddie Couples, or any PRO not using a caddy.
If they're good enough for the pros
So true...but remember... a player/caddy relationship only works if it works... if the caddy's opinion/advice does not help or even hinders the pro's game... then onto another caddy...
...and also... the PGA rules "require" that the player use a caddy...NO CHOICE in the matter...
In other words...
...if you don't have a caddy to hold/carry your clubs ( or a proper holder for your coins)... then you can't play in the big leagues...
...no matter how good your game ( or nice your collection ) ... no PGA trophies (Registry sets or record sales on Heritage) for you...
How are you?
I am having a hard time trying to understand how you are having a hard time understanding this concept.
This is really a nice fun hobby for some of us.
That's it...pure and simple.
My wife collects statues. She has a huge collection of hand made statues from Hummel to Lladro, to old Yugoslavian glass pieces-Russian/Italian/German..., an eclectic mix of awesome stuff....really great stuff. And she never once..NOT EVEN ONE TIME..has gone online to check the current value of her pieces...SHE DOESN'T CARE if they have gone up down or sideways in their value. It is a hobby for her like coins are a hobby for me.
I complain more about dropping $100 at a restaurant for dinner and not getting a good cup of coffee to finish it off.
Nobody likes throwing money away, but hobby/fun money is not needed money...or shouldn't be at least.
<< <i>
<< <i>Al, I used to play golf. In 1967 I had a hole-in-one at the Great Lakes course. That was the last time I played. How could I get any better??
Well, there was a guy a few weeks ago who got two holes-in-one in the same round. Here's the story The odds on that were stated at 67 million to one. Would need to play a lot more rounds to get that! From someone without a hole-in-one, except in miniature golf.
I worked with a fellow that had holes in one on the same hole on back to back Saturdays. That's got to have pretty good odds also.
I'm also pretty sure there are many more who are content to play with "hand me down" clubs, too
The investment of time/money is measured so many different ways by so many different hackers.
The pros and the cons of the game are beyond comprehension, really.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Is it possible that some have just as much fun playing in tennis shoes and jeans on a public course, without a caddy, as some do on a private course with one ?
I'm also pretty sure there are many more who are content to play with "hand me down" clubs, too
The investment of time/money is measured so many different ways by so many different hackers.
The pros and the cons of the game are beyond comprehension, really. >>
I think you just hit keet's nail right on the head...
It is a pure hobby to others who don't care about coins as an investment, but realize that prudent purchases can enable more success when trading up to better coins, or trading into another series. They do not want to liquidate their entire collection for financial gain, but they will try to maximize the amount when selling for the purposes of improving their collection.
For most, it is a combination hobby/investment, kinda like old cars. A friend at work who has a 9 car garage told me he can have his money in banks or stocks, but it is much more interesting and fun to have old cars. Coins are much more enjoyable than looking at bank statements, rather than pure investments coins can be a fun place to park money as a form of savings.
Then there are the pure investors who are always nervous about timing the market top, and will sell when they think it is time, with no remorse at losing their coins.
Then there is a vanishing breed, the true numismatist...
<< <i>It is a pure hobby to a very small percentage, those who use only true discretionary income, seldom or never sell, and really don't know or care what their coins are worth.
It is a pure hobby to others who don't care about coins as an investment, but realize that prudent purchases can enable more success when trading up to better coins, or trading into another series. They do not want to liquidate their entire collection for financial gain, but they will try to maximize the amount when selling for the purposes of improving their collection.
For most, it is a combination hobby/investment, kinda like old cars. A friend at work who has a 9 car garage told me he can have his money in banks or stocks, but it is much more interesting and fun to have old cars. Coins are much more enjoyable than looking at bank statements, rather than pure investments coins can be a fun place to park money as a form of savings.
Then there are the pure investors who are always nervous about timing the market top, and will sell when they think it is time, with no remorse at losing their coins.
Then there is a vanishing breed, the true numismatist... >>
This says it all in a nutshell.
I have sold ONE coin in over 40 years of collecting. And that was a modern coin that didn't fit into my collection, but was worth a good sum of money (and I PM'd keets and asked for his opinion about the sale).
Guess I know what camp I fall into
<< <i>Then there is a vanishing breed, the true numismatist... >>
And what is that? And how does it differ from all but the pure investor in your post?
- their place in history, and to do my part in preserving a small piece of it.
- the fascination of the many different die marriages for each year, and how they evolved and were refined from year to year.
- inspecting the various CBHs available, and determining which Overton variety a coin is. R3 or better? Cool!
Should they go up in value, great. Should they stay the same for the next 30 years, or even dip, okay. No matter, because I don't plan on selling a single one of them. My family can deal with that once I'm gone. So no worries on posting a loss or boasting about a gain from this corner.
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
I do not collect to lose money. I have a pretty large amount of money tied up in my collection (in my little world) and do not see a bright side to losing 25k or more. Like everything you need to evaluate what you want to do, how to get there, stay there and plans to... I have cut my collection in 1/2 over the last 6 months. The profit was nice.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>And what is that? And how does it differ from all but the pure investor in your post? >>
My opinion of a numismatist, for what its worth, is RWB, First Mint, Condor101, Pistareen, Eureka, MrHalfdime, Denga, Rittenhouse, and others. They may or may not make their living from coins, or for that matter may not even own coins.
Golf is a poor comparison to coins, as for most golf does not involve a collectible, as skiing or other activity based hobby. Most collectibles can be compared to coins, as old cars, art, etc are all hobby/investment pastimes. Try to find an old car nut who is not concerned with the sale price of the of their cars.
He collects what he likes, and maybe someday when he's gone they will be worth more than he paid, but even if it don't work out like that, he was able to enjoy them and it was worth whatever he put into them at the time, for his personal enjoyment.
<< <i>Good point but the guys at the pro shop selling clubs usually aren't class A jerks. >>
No...but I have run into a few that might be Class B jerks...
...and to reply to Nysoto...perhaps golf is not the best analogy to relate directly to coin collecting...
...but I do think the golfer/caddy analogy can be applied to the "game" of coins...and to the ever-growing dependancy, that many have developed, upon the opinions/advice of others...
...and then there is the "blame game"...when the outside opinion becomes more important than the game itself...and when "winning" becomes more important than the simple pleasure of just playing...
...which, I believe was the 'point' of the OP...
Is it a hobby/game or is or a business?
For some, it is both...
I think keets was expressing a bewilderment ... with some folks inability or unwillingness to honestly answer that question...and then live with that answer...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Give me one good reason, just one, why so many are loathe to admit they are investing money in the hobby and it chaps their ass when they post a loss, cause I just don't get it. >>
Again, I use the analogy of some other purchases such as buying a car, or expensive clothes. Virtually no one thinks "investment" when buying a car. Virtually everyone gets upset if they find out they paid $50,000 for a car that could have been gotten for $30,000. Virtually everyone cares about the resale value of the expensive car. Split the hairs where you will, but the word "investment" is a poor one to describe the car purchase situation. The difference may be that occasionally the coin buyer can sell for a profit, whereas this rarely happens with the car buyer. Do you think of yourself as a "car investor?" If yes, then many more will admit that level of "investment" interest in their coins, even if they believe it is a poor description.
Again, I think it is semantics, and a lot of energy on a word, but a lot of folks are being honest in describing their adventures in numismatics as a hobby, not as an investment.
Again, this is not to say, the coin hobbyist enjoys a trip to the cleaners, the example of paying $50,000 for $30,000 in current market value. No one enjoys that, not the investor, not the hobbyist. It still doesn't mean that both have the same interest, the same objectives, or same goals. For the investor the goal is to maximize gains, and hobby issues are secondary to non-existent. For the hobbyist, the intangibles of enjoying the hobby are primary, while return on money is secondary, and often only a minor consideration.
/edit typos
You know I'm a layman and I know from our personal chats that you are not
However, I always admire the way you are able to think "outside" of the box.
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But I would definitely consider cladking a numismatist also and he is someone who has probably forgotten more about clad coinage than I or most here have ever known.
I think most people like to believe there hobbyist first and foremost and actually believe it to an extent, that is until the market starts to correct, they they run for the doors scared to death.
The financial markets are the same. Everyone loves to say they're long term investors, at least until the markets correct nastily to the downside and then they want out.
Usually these situations arise when people are putting money into investments they know nothing/little about and get spooked at normal market behavior that needs to occur periodically to correct for overvaluations. The smart money is sitting on the sidelines waiting for the market to over correct on the downside, then the bulls will return and sanity returns for a while.
That's pretty much the way I see it.
I am not sure I agree with what you are saying... I say that in part because many collectors, myself included, collect many types of coins in various grades with different objectives. For example, I have been working on a set of British pennies from 1860 to 1967. I am seeking nice high end circulated examples. I am not in this series as an investment... merely fun and I will likely buy afew mistakes along the way and loose $$ and buy others that will likely make up for any mistakes. My point is... I don't care about the financial aspect of that series.
Lets use a different example... and lets use a different series such as Jefferson Nickels. A fairly attractive set uncirculated can be assembled for a small amount if that is the direction a collector chooses. In the alternative, a collector could literally spend $50,000 to $75,000 (and even more) for Full Step examples. At some point, coins become an investment and collectors want to feel as if they have bought the right coins as well as have some sense of security about the value of the 1953-s MS65 Full Step that they just paid a tidy sum to obtain. Collectors want a level playing field as they undertake such an endeavor.
Unfortunately, there are no guarantees in terms of value or even grading due to its subjective component. Collectors, at some level, will likely second guess TPG and that does not always make them whiners but perhaps it will make them more aware of what knowledge is really required to be a real collector.
edited for spelling... pennies and collectors
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The next big numismatic bear that hits will cull the true collectors from the panic stricken investors.
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>Al, I used to play golf. In 1967 I had a hole-in-one at the Great Lakes course. That was the last time I played. How could I get any better??
Knock a small plane out of the air with a shanked pop up.
Reason: This phrase in the question "investing money in the hobby"
If they are really investing money then it is not a hobby as strictly defined An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
But if you call it a hobby you can sell it to the wife or to yourself when it does not work out. ( you begin to trick your mind here)
When it does work out and you make money, you do mentally transistion to an "investor" and think it is a hobby because you want to be right and good and want to tell your "fish story" to gain respect for yourself, from your wife and freinds. This does give one pleasure so it could be a hobby you think.
Thus, when you lose money it does not look good to you and real or imagined, you think everyone else knows...because you have won or made money in the past as an investor the only way to express this new defeat it is to pawn the loss of mentally as just a hobby going back to the true defination like running home to mama. But you soon realized you have tricked yourself and that losing money is not fun so it really is not hobby, you are just a loser. Hence the gnashing of teeth.
The other part of my collection--the one I actually enjoy more--is just what I collect from coin rolls. To me, that is pure collecting. Just pursuing it for the pure joy of finding things, independent of value.
So, it ain't black and white. Am I greed-free? No. Am I obsessed by monetary value? No. But I have elements of both. Gee, does that make me human???
I'm not very good at "collecting coins for money", so I limit my collecting to coins that I think are cool.
I buy precious metals for investment and speculation, and somewhere in the mix, I started collecting various aspects of these coins as well.
I liked David Hall's reference to that original roll of BU Barber Dimes that someone had in the '70s at a coin show. Can you imagine how much flak the guy who saved them might have encountered at the time when he put them away?
Maybe it was just a hobby for him. Or maybe he did it as an investment. Either way, who can deny that they would like to find such a roll of dimes somewhere like that? Maybe it's not for anyone else to judge what someone else collects or why they collect it.
I knew it would happen.