OUCH!!! A rude awakening to darkside resale value.

gecko109

What the hell went wrong with this auction? When I bought this coin at a recent show for $80, I was sure it was a steal. Looks like I have ALOT to learn about world coin values!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120261780374&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=002

Doogy

i'd say one of your biggest problems was exposure. If you're selling to a US audience you NEVER want to end a coin on a weeknight early in the week, like you did here. Most swear by the fact that your best returns are for auctions closing Sunday evening. I've witnessed it myself, with amazing results over other nights.

In fact, I love to buy from sellers that are ending on a weeknight, especially Monday - Wednesday as i can usually buy for far less than i was willing to pay. A lot of folks get busy with life and family, and forget or could care less about checking back with your auctions in time. The the Sunday thing is a tried and tested thing; if you don't believe me, ask the question on the US forum but be prepared to get an earful.

gecko109

Even so, regardless of ending time, shouldnt this coin sell for far above $20? I had 18 other coins end at the same time as this one and was VERY pleased with most of the hammer prices.

7Jaguars

OK, can you give us a linky to see what we are talking about? Gracias!

FilthyBroke

<< <i>OK, can you give us a linky to see what we are talking about? Gracias! >>



Link

Here, try this link.

gecko109

Thanks Filthy.

ajaan

Just bad luck I guess. That is, bad luck for you for getting such a low price, good luck for the winner who is a member here.

I have had nice Canadian coins sell on eBay for 20% Trends. Just never know.

theboz11

I would have liked to see better pictures, at least larger by 3x. I did not see it offered here in our little weekly BST. did I miss it? You may have had much better luck. I for one pick up cherry looking coins even if I don't collect the series. Just makes good sence with the tide flowing toward the darkside.

7Jaguars

Thanks filthy. I just can not help as I do not know the series. I would say with coins like these as has been suggested above is that they have to be sold to the right audience. I shudder to think how little some of my Brit coins might get on this side of the pond...

newbiecollector

I think you may be doing yourself a dis-service by only shipping to the USA.

There are a lot of darkside collectors NOT located in the USA

JoesMaName

I feel for you, that was a sweat coin...

Doogy

<< <i>I think you may be doing yourself a dis-service by only shipping to the USA.

There are a lot of darkside collectors NOT located in the USA >>



.....another very valid point that i'd forgotten. I'd say that 90% of the time on ebay, my darkside coins are sold to buyers in other places (mostly in Europe, Taiwan and Hong Kong). They pay very fast, and are happy to be buying our stuff and paying strong money, as the exchange rate is favorable to them. Limiting yourself to just US buyers will generally always bring you less money than you would have gotten; it may still be sold to a US buyer of course, but you're liable to get many more bids from others outside the US as they bid the auction up.

rwyarmch

"I had 18 other coins end at the same time..."

I'm curious if all your coins ended at precisely the same time and, if so, whether there is an EBay
reason why they were not staggered in some way. I ask because I often bid on a nice run of
coins which are scheduled to expire a minute or so apart. Since I only snipe, I sometimes bid on
all of them one after another. If they expire simultaneously, I invariably skip some (particularly if
the photos aren't that great) and focus on those where I can manage my snipe bids.

(Anal, yes, but I bet I'm not alone.)

USAROK

You need to put USPI, USA-Philippines or Philippines in your auction heading. If I was selling the coin my heading would have read: 1903 USA-Philippnes Half Centavo NGC MS64RD. I didn't see this auction because my searches look for the above listed keywords along with PCGS and NGC. I don't usually browse through eBay catagories which is the only way I would have found your auction.

Doogy

<< <i>You need to put USPI, USA-Philippines or Philippines in your auction heading. If I was selling the coin my heading would have read: 1903 USA-Philippnes Half Centavo NGC MS64RD. I didn't see this auction because my searches look for the above listed keywords along with PCGS and NGC. I don't usually browse through eBay catagories which is the only way I would have found your auction. >>



another great point.........one needs to at least point out the country of origin of the coin, if he expects to cater to a certain group of buyers.

gecko109

Thanks for all the great possible explainations guys. I appreciate it. All 19 coins did end at the same exact time. A stagger start would be better I suppose. I dont offer shipping outside the U.S. due to postal limitations on tracking and insurance to various countries. Someone got a great coin at a fraction of the real value with this coin however. Someone mentioned it was a person from these forums. If you come across this thread, please do chime in!

FilamCoins

Unlucky I would say. The 03 1/2c in 64 RD should sell for $40+, with the prices approximately doubling in 65 and 66. This is a pretty common coin in the series with lots being saved as a first year issue and the fact that the 1/2c's were unpopular and did not circulate much (they were in fact pulled after just two years of minting). Nevertheless, yours was a nice example and should have commanded more.

newsman

<< <i>You need to put USPI, USA-Philippines or Philippines in your auction heading. If I was selling the coin my heading would have read: 1903 USA-Philippnes Half Centavo NGC MS64RD. I didn't see this auction because my searches look for the above listed keywords along with PCGS and NGC. I don't usually browse through eBay catagories which is the only way I would have found your auction. >>



Good point. That explains why some of the usual suspects weren't bidding.

JoesMaName

<< <i>You need to put USPI, USA-Philippines or Philippines in your auction heading. If I was selling the coin my heading would have read: 1903 USA-Philippnes Half Centavo NGC MS64RD. I didn't see this auction because my searches look for the above listed keywords along with PCGS and NGC. I don't usually browse through eBay catagories which is the only way I would have found your auction. >>



I agree with USARock, the title was probably the bulk of the problem.

coachleonard

When you follow the oft-quoted philosophy of "Start the bidding low with no reserve and TRUST the auction process to bring out the coin's TRUE market value" then prepare to MANY times (not all the time) feel a lot like the city of Rome did the morning after the Vandals sacked it in 410 A.D. This is especially true when listing scarce but exotic and not widely-known darkside material on ebay. It's a catch-22 situation a lot of times-- your best bet to get competitive bidding going is to start the bidding low with no reserve. It's also the best way to get pillaged.

NonCents

Definately has to be your title. I have my searches set up to skip all the other junk out there. If you had Philippines in your title, then it would have popped up in my search.

Musky1011

Someone got a RIP

worldcoinguy

<< <i>Thanks for all the great possible explainations guys. I appreciate it. All 19 coins did end at the same exact time. A stagger start would be better I suppose. I dont offer shipping outside the U.S. due to postal limitations on tracking and insurance to various countries. Someone got a great coin at a fraction of the real value with this coin however. Someone mentioned it was a person from these forums. If you come across this thread, please do chime in! >>



Sorry to hear the frustration. I think there has been some good advise here. My only 2 cents to add would be to open it up to a worldwide audience. My last 2 auctions had bidderes from 12 different countries. Only 2 of which were in the US. The Russian buyers were bidding 300% more than the top US bidders. On my auctions, I make sure I describe my terms for shipping overseas in very clear terms. If the value is anything over $75 I only ship via USPS registered mail. I have actually has buyers use registered mail for $20 purchases (which surprisingly adds up to approx 60% of the final auction price).

SYRACUSIAN

Actually, of all the reasons mentioned so far, I think that not ending the auction on a Sunday night was a rather minor contributor in the disappointing result. In the German States NGC MS67 kreuzer auction for instance , the actual German state that issued the coin, Hesse Darmstadt ,was not in the title, neither in the description, so the bidders on that were probably the ones with MS67 or NGC as a key word in their search. Same with the Hamburg shilling auction, that initially gave me the impression that it was a British coin auction (shilling is a very popular British denomination). Most collectors specialize in these by states, such as Prussia, Bavaria, etc, not by grade, and these German States were only united in 1870 to form Germany.

Part of the fun of short term handling of Darkside coins, is to learn a bit about the issuing country or state and its history,so even if the resale value is less than what you paid, you have gained knowledge that is hard to quantify in dollars. Finally, the exclusion of non US bidders is IMHO hurting your non US coin sales, especially with the current usd/euro ratio that allows European bidders to place strong bids and repatriate their coins.


The winner of your Philippines auction has already posted in this thread. He specializes in such bargains.

gecko109

<< <i>Actually, of all the reasons mentioned so far, I think that not ending the auction on a Sunday night was a rather minor contributor in the disappointing result. In the German States NGC MS67 kreuzer auction for instance , the actual German state that issued the coin, Hesse Darmstadt ,was not in the title, neither in the description, so the bidders on that were probably the ones with MS67 or NGC as a key word in their search. Same with the Hamburg shilling auction, that initially gave me the impression that it was a British coin auction (shilling is a very popular British denomination). Most collectors specialize in these by states, such as Prussia, Bavaria, etc, not by grade, and these German States were only united in 1870 to form Germany.

Part of the fun of short term handling of Darkside coins, is to learn a bit about the issuing country or state and its history,so even if the resale value is less than what you paid, you have gained knowledge that is hard to quantify in dollars. Finally, the exclusion of non US bidders is IMHO hurting your non US coin sales, especially with the current usd/euro ratio that allows European bidders to place strong bids and repatriate their coins.


The winner of your Philippines auction has already posted in this thread. He specializes in such bargains. >>




Excellent point about at least trying to learn something about the darkside coins if holding short term. Unfortunately, all I really learned was that I paid about 50% too much when I bought those 4 foreign coins a few weeks ago. I bought them for all the WRONG reasons. I was very upset at the time with how high all the U.S. coins had gotten in prices, and I liked the idea of getting a small silver MS67 slabbed 18xx coin for about $100. The USPI coins that I bought (2 half centavos in 64RD, and 1 in 65RD) were bought for the right reasons though. However, I decided to sell one of the 64RD's as I was certain I would at least break even on the $80 investment. I couldnt have been more wrong! This was not the first time I have leapt into a venture without having the most basic knowlege, and it most likely wont be the last. But I have learned from this very small financial blunder a good lesson.

cladking

Wow!!!

This thread is a real wake up call for me as well. I still think of this coin
as a little $3 trinket that can be found anywhere. I'm just not used to a
world where people care about base metal coins. There was no demand
for a coin like this ten or fifteen years ago so they were available. Many of
these are poorly struck though nice ones can be found.

What's especially incredible is that Krause lists the BU at $20 and people
are surprised when it brings even more than this! I would tend to call the
coin only Unc (I'm a very tough grader) so the $20 price seems all the more
remarkable to me and the surprise much more so.

I don't really have a dog in this fight since I prefer large denomination, later
date, and copper nickel coins. Copper is a great coinage material but it was
often heavily saved and there's always a greater risk of it turning dark.

There are a large number of US and world moderns which simply won't be
available if the demand continues to develop.

percyb

<< <i>What the hell went wrong with this auction? When I bought this coin at a recent show for $80, I was sure it was a steal. Looks like I have ALOT to learn about world coin values!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120261780374&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=002 >>



Yikes. It's a steal now for whoever bot it, to be sure.

Doogy

<< <i>Wow!!!

This thread is a real wake up call for me as well. I still think of this coin
as a little $3 trinket that can be found anywhere. I'm just not used to a
world where people care about base metal coins. There was no demand
for a coin like this ten or fifteen years ago so they were available. Many of
these are poorly struck though nice ones can be found.

What's especially incredible is that Krause lists the BU at $20 and people
are surprised when it brings even more than this! I would tend to call the
coin only Unc (I'm a very tough grader) so the $20 price seems all the more
remarkable to me and the surprise much more so.

I don't really have a dog in this fight since I prefer large denomination, later
date, and copper nickel coins. Copper is a great coinage material but it was
often heavily saved and there's always a greater risk of it turning dark.

There are a large number of US and world moderns which simply won't be
available if the demand continues to develop. >>




Krause is a 'mile wide and an inch deep' with their pricing. If i'm buying a nice coin, I pretty much resign myself to knowing that i'll usually pay far above Krause for a nice example. In fact, i've bought and sold many coins for multiples of Krause, especially for the more popular world coin issues out there.

Doogy

there are quite a few big time ebay coin sellers on the US forum, and there have been numerous ebay 'how-to' threads. This one was put out by a big ebay coin seller awhile back as a reference to buying and selling:


Tip #1 It's is all about timing. The best deals are found at off hours. It is widely known that there are tons of coin bidders on a Sunday night but if an auction ends at 9 in the morning and you are there, you may win due to much less competition.

Tip #2 Bid in the last few minutes of the sale. This will help you win more auctions and for lower prices.

Tip #3 Read feedbacks. Sometimes a seller will get a bad feedback because the buyer is a jerk, even the best seller will get one here and there. If a seller has one or two but replies to them I would not be too worried about the seller.

Tip #4 Look to see what things have sold for before on EBay. Sometimes you can get a good feel for what to bid and try to judge current market prices.

Tip #5 Wait until just after Christmas and you will find a lot of people selling presents that are unwanted. Most people have spent a good deal of money so there are real bargains to be had.

Tip # 6 Keep a good search on coins for sale. Sometimes the exact same item may go off cheaper a week later, especially if they are not a unique item.

Tip # 7 If this is a scarce/rare coin or highly popular issue, than bid the most you will pay as close to the close of the sale you can.

Tip # 8 Never send a check or money order if you don't have to. Use Paypal or a credit card. This way if there is a problem you have some recourse against the seller.

Tip # 9 Beware of Spoofs. These are sites looking for information that are affiliated with eBay. If you are not sure do not give out ANY personal information of give out your password. EBay will never ask you for your password. They will already have it. Here is a list of some eBay spoof sites.

Tip #10 Check the price guides to see what they are worth before bidding and selling.

Tip # 11 Clear and high resolution pictures of coins are a must when buying or selling. Being able to discern details on the coins for sale is a huge thing for many collectors, and will certainly bring higher final prices to said auctions versus the same coin with lesser pictures.

Tip # 12 in many cases, limiting yourself to buyers from your country is shutting off a good many possible bidders from bidding up your auctions.

SYRACUSIAN

Doug,

you're absolutely right about timing, and I did not mean to undermine its importance. It just seemed to me that in this particular case other reasons might have contributed more to the low realized price.

Anyway, timing is very important, as is the seller's rep. And yet, ebay is so unpredictable, that even with all the above parameters covered (in Doug's post), luck will still be the most determining factor. I once wanted to bid on a couple of coins, and I did not know their market value. I therefore PMed JamminJ who at the time was a very active seller of such coins. All his auctions were ending on Sunday evenings, he religiously avoided holidays, superbowls and any other possible event that could affect his auctions, he had great photos and a solid reputation and following.Here are the results that he PMed me, which I believe speak for themselves:


1848 A France 1c 65BN $101.65
1848 A France 1C 65BN 1/15/2006 $29.00


1861 M Italy 1c 64RD $23.50
1861 M Italy 1c 67RB $175.00
1861 M Italy 1c 65RB 10/16/2005 $67.00
1861 M Italy 1C 63RB 05/22/05 $21.50
1861 M Italy 1c 66RB 11/20/2005 $62.00


Go figure...

IloiloKano

Oh. Oh! OH!!! Knotted gut feeling here.

I didn't see it while it was in progress! If I had, I can guarantee you it would not have gone for so little.

Doogy

Dimitri,

Thanks, I agree that with any auction you must have the right things in place AND a bit of luck on your side sometimes (and a few 'bidiots', willing to win your auctions at all costs help too!) The list I posted I simply cut and pasted as this topic is discussed on the US forum ad nauseum. They may not work for everyone all the time, but i've found there are more than enough good tidbits that should enable the "average" ebay coin seller to possibly help them a bit.

SYRACUSIAN

Doug,I agree. Luck is unpredictable, but there are several other important tips to follow.


Iloilokano didn't see the auction, because the coin did not appear in his default search. That's not luck, it's the title's fault.




In the end, I pay whatever I feel for the coins I like, (read overpay) and no bidsheet or catalogue will convince me not to.

cladking

<< <i>


In the end, I pay whatever I feel for the coins I like, (read overpay) and no bidsheet or catalogue will convince me not to. >>




When you know the coins it simply doesn't matter what the price guides say.

Aethelred

Here are my two cents: I do not think the day or time the auction ends is a very big factor any more. I have some auctions ending tonight (Friday) by mistake, I intended to list them as 10 day auctions that would end on a Monday. However, they seem to be doing quite well.


I believe there are two factors that are hurting you much more:

1. Only offering this item to US buyers. I find that often as much as 50% of the Darkside material I sell now goes outside the US. You will get screwed now and then by less than honest buyers, but even those cases are rare and will be made up for by the extra profit made with the 99% of overseas buyers who are honest and just want nice coins.

2. Your auction title is another thing holding you back. I believe the most important thing you can do to ensure a good outcome on eBay is to write a good title. In my opinion that matters more than good photographs, easy terms or a detailed write-up. While all of those things do matter, without a good title most people will never see them. I would advise you to study completed auctions, look at the coins that bring the most and sudy those titles. Learn what works and do it.

Good luck!!!!

zeebob

gecko109, I totally feel for you bro! I'm not having much luck getting rich on Ebay, but I'm having a lot of fun. You've started a GREAT thread, I'm learning a lot lurking. But I have a couple of questions, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but my questions seem to fit in to the discussion, so I hope you don't mind me asking.

I gather from the above that a seller should:

1 - End on a Sunday
2 - If it's darkside, ship worldwide (or at least to the country of origin)
3 - Use relevant keywords in the description.

I have two questions...

1 - How does the length of an auction affect the end price? Do 10-day auctions, on average, bring higher prices? Ebay fees are higher for the extra 3-days.

2 - For lightside coins, does limiting shipping to the USA significantly (on average) impact final prices? This question is for type coins in the $1-$100 range.

tonyhar

Zeebob- There are a number of us who also collect lightside ( liteside! ) living outside the US. If you feel happy selling some items overseas then list all of them ( the more competition the better ).

A plea from across the pond. Will more of you consider Europe ( especially UK ) in your listings.

IloiloKano

<< <i>A plea from across the pond. Will more of you consider Europe ( especially UK ) in your listings. >>



Many of us already do. Personally, I am a buyer that sells in order to support his addiction, I mean collection, and I just sent a couple items to the UK. The buyer apparently was pleased, as he left me nice feedback, and he mentioned the US to UK transit.

I sell very few light side coins, since I collect US-PI almost entirely, which rightly should be light side, since it was US currency at the time, but that's another story for another day.

That's okay though. They don't want us, then we don't need 'em.

zeebob

I generally do ship worldwide. I run into several issues.

1 - I like to post a fixed dollar value for shipping (makes checkout for customers easier), but guessing at worldwide shipping is a little tricky depending on where the coin is shipped.

2 - Some countries, Canada, have screwy rules about shipping coins. I don't like to lie on customs forms.

3 - I basically "self insure" my items. If something doesn't arrive, I either refund the customer or ship an identical item (the customer's choice). But for more expensive coins, I insure them or send them registered. International shipping seems a little tricky. Right on the outside of the package the custom's form says "coins" and then the US Postal Service won't offer insurance for international shipping. "Self insuring" coupled with writing "coins" on the package makes me really nervous.

I would like to have all of my auctions (lightside or darkside) ship worldwide. I would be interested to hear other people's experience and ideas. Should I be using UPS or Fedex instead of USPS?

IloiloKano

With just a little stretch, a coin might be considered a medallion as well. I've received coins from the Philippines (notorious for it's dishonest Postal Workers) with a coin described as a medallion. It seems to work well for them.

Note that I try to be honest and truthful in accordance with my own personal beliefs and faith, so I am reluctant to propose the above as a solution. I don't like to lie either. However, using the description 'medallion' is in my mind a personal decision that one may make, and I will not find fault with those who choose to do so.