Cheerios Non-Pattern Sacajawea Dollar
19Lyds
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You fine folks remember the Cheerios Dollar recently graded by NGC that came from the Cheerios Packaging and was NOT one of the pattern coins?
Well, it's up on eBay!
Looks like being a non-Pattern has its own special status too!
Well, it's up on eBay!
Looks like being a non-Pattern has its own special status too!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
0
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The name is LEE!
We all (well me for sure) simply assumed that the 5,500 supplied to General Mills were of the Pattern Variety!
NOT!
Maybe this expalins why none have been pulled from circulation?
The name is LEE!
To me it's just a regular sac with no evidence that's is a Cheerio's dollar except the notation on the holder.
<< <i>Kinda make wonder though doesn't it? If there's one non-pattern, surely there must be others but, exactly how many others?
We all (well me for sure) simply assumed that the 5,500 supplied to General Mills were of the Pattern Variety!
NOT!
Maybe this expalins why none have been pulled from circulation? >>
If there were supposedely 5,500 pattern Sacs supplied for Cheerios boxes in packages and somehow there are non pattern Sacs in packages appearing in packages is there more to the story here....????.....
Is there a break-in at the Cheerios factory.....????
This is a huge questions to consider, and then other questions/discussion.
1) Who packaged the original coins? The U.S. Mint, General Mills, or a private contractor for General Mills?
2) Can the coin be documented to 1999? The seller claims to have one from a box of Cheerios and one from a flee market.
3) When "buyers" purchase materials for production they always order too much to ensure production does not run short. Trust me it would be very costly to order the exact quantity you need for production and have a small percentage ruined during production on these types of special runs, and then have to order a very tiny amount of material just to finish.
4) How did NGC ensure the packaging wasn't counterfeit? There are NGC, PCGS and other counterfeit coin holders which take injection molds to be made. Paper and plastic are easy to counterfeit, especially because it may not even be taken into consideration.
Edited to correct spelling error.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>All you need is smoeone working on the side with left over materials to package these with coins from normal release. Although it is possible the coin is legit, I feel it is possible that someone could package these after the fact and therefore could be suspicious. From reading Numismatic News over all the years in the question and answer section they have mentioned numerous time not to buy mint packaging errors because smoeone could package them. The same thing "could" have happened here. And because it "could" happen doesn't mean it did, but it is very possible.
>>
They've said this and it's likely fairly true but there aren't any counterfeit plastic holders out there.
This doesn't mean that everything in any government plastic is OK since it is possible to do things
like putting Philly PL coins in the place of No-S proofs. If the holder breaks then they can just try
another until they get one that opens cleanly. Some sets have huge premiums and still there aren't
counterfeits. The '95 mint set has only about $3 worth of coins but sells for $15.
The difficulty in obtaining quantities of the coins needed to fake mint sets will tend to limit this prac-
tice even if it ever does get underway. Most modern sets are worth more as singles then sets so you
would lose money putting them together. The resultant product would immediately be recognized as
fake by most collectors.
While it may not be wise to put much money into packaging errors or government plastic there is still
no problem at the current time.
<< <i>
<< <i>All you need is smoeone working on the side with left over materials to package these with coins from normal release. Although it is possible the coin is legit, I feel it is possible that someone could package these after the fact and therefore could be suspicious. From reading Numismatic News over all the years in the question and answer section they have mentioned numerous time not to buy mint packaging errors because smoeone could package them. The same thing "could" have happened here. And because it "could" happen doesn't mean it did, but it is very possible.
>>
They've said this and it's likely fairly true but there aren't any counterfeit plastic holders out there.
This doesn't mean that everything in any government plastic is OK since it is possible to do things
like putting Philly PL coins in the place of No-S proofs. If the holder breaks then they can just try
another until they get one that opens cleanly. Some sets have huge premiums and still there aren't
counterfeits. The '95 mint set has only about $3 worth of coins but sells for $15.
The difficulty in obtaining quantities of the coins needed to fake mint sets will tend to limit this prac-
tice even if it ever does get underway. Most modern sets are worth more as singles then sets so you
would lose money putting them together. The resultant product would immediately be recognized as
fake by most collectors.
While it may not be wise to put much money into packaging errors or government plastic there is still
no problem at the current time. >>
The sets they have referred to in NN are the pliofilm mint and proof sets.
It is possible and plausable to repackage this stuff, dump it into an "official mint envelope" and rip smoeone off. Trust me if it can happen it will. There are many tallented people out there. A couple of pieces of plastic, an iron system to seal the two pieces of film togeter and its done!
And NGC and PCGS both sent out warning to their customers about counterfiet slabs. This would be the second time for PCGS, as way back after they started smoeone was making their own, and the hint was the printing on the reverse label was just a little bit different, some of those still show up today.
So the
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Rare original packaging for a very common coin. I'm surprised NGC would put that label on it. >>
Well, it is quite literally true.
TD
<< <i>was there any proof it was in cheerios ORIGINAL and UNTAMPERED packaging? >>
It was opened by David Camire, who has opened several other Cheerios packages that did have the patterns in them, and he is satisfied that the packaging was original. That's good enough for me.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>Rare original packaging for a very common coin. I'm surprised NGC would put that label on it. >>
Well, it is quite literally true.
TD >>
I'm not denying that this is "literally true" TD. I believe it to be. I'm more suprised by the convoluted message that's sent with the label. A fairy tale , of sorts.
edit to add:
a tall tale without the tail.
<< <i>PCGS Guidance - Sacagawea Cheerios Dollars
- May 16, 2008
Effective May 16, 2008
As part of an effort in 1999 to promote the new Sacagawea Dollars, General Mills scattered 5,500 specially-packaged 2000-dated Sacagawea Dollars among 10 million boxes of Cheerios cereal. Five years later, it was discovered that the so-called “Cheerios” Dollars were actually from a different reverse die type. Some experts consider these pattern coins; others have called them “Reverse of 1999”. PCGS has labeled them “Cheerios FS-401”, referring to the source and the reference number from the Fivaz-Stanton “Cherrypicker” guide. Because of the perceived rarity of the Reverse of 1999 and the assumption that all “Cheerios” Dollars bore the Reverse of 1999, the demand for these coins has increased and the coins themselves have become quite valuable.
However, PCGS experts recently opened a sealed “Cheerios” package only to find out that the Dollar contained in the package was of a normal, Reverse of 2000 die type. The package appeared to be authentic and showed no evidence of tampering. A similar experience has been reported by another grading service. Thus, one may no longer assume that the Dollars in the Cheerios packages are of the rare, Reverse of 1999. Because the “Cheerios” Dollars are packaged obverse up, the reverse cannot be seen. An obverse die marker has been identified on some “Cheerios” Dollars and may assist in identifying Reverse of 1999 Dollars in sealed packages. The die marker consists of die polish extending into the field from Sacagawea’s wrap immediately below and to the left of the mintmark. Whether this die marker is diagnostic of the Reverse of 1999 Sacagawea Dollars remains to be seen.
PCGS only applies the “Cheerios” designation to Sacagawea Dollars with the Reverse of 1999. PCGS bears no responsibility for the die type of Dollars submitted in unopened Cheerios packages, nor is PCGS obligated to designate any Dollar as a “Cheerios” Dollar simply because it came out of a sealed Cheerios package. >>
Link
My suspicion is that the obverse die marker is evident on this coin as well as having boldly detailed tail feathers.
One will likely not see this "ledge" on a regular Sacagawea.
<< <i>
<< <i>was there any proof it was in cheerios ORIGINAL and UNTAMPERED packaging? >>
It was opened by David Camire, who has opened several other Cheerios packages that did have the patterns in them, and he is satisfied that the packaging was original. That's good enough for me.
TD >>
thanks, it's good to know that at least tpgs and and ebayers aren't getting scammed with re-sealed packaging.
I guess this means that all future Cheerios dollar submissions are headed NGC's way to at least get some type of recognition for their multi-thousand dollar purchase.
I can't help but wonder the outcome for the submitter that sent the non-Pattern submission to PCGS? Do you suppose he's ultra pissed or just ok with the decision amd will this thread now go Poofy-Poof?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Interesting situation here between NGC and PCGS. Kinda like the we won't do 70's and now we do 70's saga!
I guess this means that all future Cheerios dollar submissions are headed NGC's way to at least get some type of recognition for their multi-thousand dollar purchase.
I can't help but wonder the outcome for the submitter that sent the non-Pattern submission to PCGS? Do you suppose he's ultra pissed or just ok with the decision amd will this thread now go Poofy-Poof? >>
I suppose a crossover from NGC to PCGS retaining the Cheerios pedigree is also out of the question now for this pattern with the new submission guidelines
I buy a Cheerios packaged dollar/penny set and pay $4,000. I submit to PCGS who states that the coin in the packaging is not the pattern dollar.
What now?
Does the coin get slabbed as a regular 2000-P saccie and I get the slab returned along with a sorry note? Remember packaging costs an extra $2.00 to get returned.
Does PCGS call me with the bad news and ask me what I would like to do? Remember the coin has been removed from the packaging.
Will PCGS forward the coin and packaging to NGC upon request of the submitter validating that the coin was in the package so that at least some recognition can be given?
What?
Seems like this scenario in itself will bring the price of the Cheerios dollars in original packaging down considerably due to the much higher risk involved.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Think about it.
I buy a Cheerios packaged dollar/penny set and pay $4,000. I submit to PCGS who states that the coin in the packaging is not the pattern dollar.
What now?
Does the coin get slabbed as a regular 2000-P saccie and I get the slab returned along with a sorry note? Remember packaging costs an extra $2.00 to get returned.
Does PCGS call me with the bad news and ask me what I would like to do? Remember the coin has been removed from the packaging.
Will PCGS forward the coin and packaging to NGC upon request of the submitter validating that the coin was in the package so that at least some recognition can be given
What?
Seems like this scenario in itself will bring the price of the Cheerios dollars in original packaging down considerably do to the much higher risk involved. >>
Just get a close- up of the obverse and see if this is on it before purchasing one in the "original" package. So far, to my knowledge, this die marker separates the wheat from the chaff.
<< <i>Think about it.
I buy a Cheerios packaged dollar/penny set and pay $4,000. I submit to PCGS who states that the coin in the packaging is not the pattern dollar.
What now?
Does the coin get slabbed as a regular 2000-P saccie and I get the slab returned along with a sorry note? Remember packaging costs an extra $2.00 to get returned.
Does PCGS call me with the bad news and ask me what I would like to do? Remember the coin has been removed from the packaging.
Will PCGS forward the coin and packaging to NGC upon request of the submitter validating that the coin was in the package so that at least some recognition can be given?
What?
Seems like this scenario in itself will bring the price of the Cheerios dollars in original packaging down considerably do to the much higher risk involved. >>
That is why i was wondering if PCGS will crossover the Cheerios pedigree along with the patern coin from NGC since they didn't open the packaging (like they won't crossover ASE's with the 20th anniversary pedigree). IMO, the Cheerios pedigree without the pattern adds noithing to the coin but a legitimate Cheerios pattern coin would be worth more in a PCGS holder.
I WANT THAT !
think the morons will take $50 for the piece of ...........................
treasure ?
I'm not doubting David Camire's abilities, but I do think that it is possible to reproduce the packaging. It is possible to create "bank rolls" for coins with the correct machine and paper (but it isn't cheap) I would think that this could be done.
But if someone could get $10K per Sac, it would be profitable to find a packaging machine and recreate the paper.
Maybe the same person who made these Sacs works at West Point making ASEs now!
It is entirely possible that the coin's Cheerios package was original but the coin itself is nothing special.This coin is forever tied to its TPG plastic to be worth the thousands being asked for it.
I don't blame the owner for trying to get the money but as a buyer I'd definitely pass on purchasing a coin like this.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
TD can refute or support any posts I've made in this thread. I also do not think any less of the seller of the "LABEL" for the hope of a great profit. We all tend to buy into the Nike™ and Lexus™ mentality.
I would just feel bad for a buyer who may get "duped" into misguided thinking and end up giving the hobby a "black eye", as it were.
Lost Dutchman Rare Coins
Indianapolis, IN
ANA 3137206
PCGS Authorized Dealer
TD
<< <i> This reminds me of the unburnished Millennium Set Sacagaweas. There are a few known to exist. >>
As well as a few "unburnished post-strike" Goodacre Presentation pieces.
<< <i>"Cheerios" Sacagawea Dollar Found Without Enhanced Tail Feathers Design
Jaime Hernandez - May 27, 2008
As part of an effort in 1999 to promote the new Sacagawea dollars, General Mills scattered 5,500 specially packaged, 2000-dated Sacagawea dollars among 10 million boxes of Cheerios cereal. Five years later, it was discovered that the so-called "Cheerios" dollars were actually from a different reverse die type. Some experts consider these pattern coins; others have called them "Reverse of 1999."
The Reverse of 1999 displays an enhanced tail feather design compared to 2000-dated Sacagawea Dollars. PCGS has labeled them "Cheerios FS-401," referring to the source and the reference number from the Fivaz-Stanton "Cherrypickers" guide. Because of the perceived rarity of the Reverse of 1999 and the assumption that all "Cheerios" dollars bore the Reverse of 1999, the demand for these coins has increased and the coins themselves have become quite valuable.
However, PCGS experts recently opened a sealed Cheerios package only to find out that the dollar contained in the package was of a normal, Reverse of 2000 die type. The package appeared to be authentic and showed no evidence of tampering. A similar experience has been reported by another grading service. Thus, one may no longer assume that all the dollars in the Cheerios packages are of the rare, Reverse of 1999.
Because the "Cheerios" dollars are packaged obverse up, the reverse cannot be seen. An obverse die marker has been identified on some "Cheerios" dollars and may assist in identifying Reverse of 1999 dollars in sealed packages. The die marker consists of die polish extending into the field from Sacagawea’s wrap immediately below and to the left of the mintmark. Whether this die marker is diagnostic of the Reverse of 1999 Sacagawea Dollars remains to be seen.
PCGS only applies the "Cheerios" designation to Sacagawea dollars with the Reverse of 1999. PCGS bears no responsibility for the die type of dollars submitted in unopened Cheerios packages, nor is PCGS obligated to designate any dollar as a "Cheerios" dollar simply because it came out of a sealed Cheerios package. >>
Link
SO I have a question, I have seen on eBay a coin that was in the special holder which says it was struck on Nov 18, 1999. Now the seller showed a real good closeup of the tail feathers and they were enhanced. If I were to buy one like this would PCGS designate this coin as a Cheerios even though it came from different packaging. If not, and it had all the earmarks of a cheerio what would they label it?
thanks!
The question remains the same as the last time you inquired about an eBay auction.
“Will it be the coin you receive?”
What type of special holder is it? It’s not another First Day Cover is it?
I still look for these at yard sales.... No luck so far, but one day...
Cheers, RickO