I am telling you what I would do; NOT what you SHOULD do. Although, it's a pretty fine line between the two concepts when communicating on a message board.
I would not do anything to hurt my personal property, and I would not advise anybody here to do anything that I thought would hurt their stuff either.
//////////////////////////////////
Matt Nelson:........ Check his price for paint removal only.
If it's cheap enough, it is likely a good play.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I to agree that I doubt if there's any writing on the card that the paint was used to cover it up - very doubtful. Seems to me it was probably some kid working on say his WW2 model airplanes, was a little bored and "decided" to see what his baseball card would look like with the airplane model paint on it.
I saw that auction....good thing I'm on a tight budget....Congrats!
OK - to answer the 2 questions - no and no, don't add injury to insult and "better" the black border or repaint it. The blue paint that is there and the way it covers just parts of the border is part of the charm of what the card is today. Leave it be if you're not going to do the restroration.
Ok, I think enough time has passed that I can update everyone on the Mantle. Let me say this - I am not posting this as a slam toward Mr Orlando or to PSA. I am simply stating the facts as they happened. You can take the facts and come to your own conclusions about this situation. I will post this in a courteous manner.
At the end of June, I decided to go ahead and send the Mantle in to PSA the way it is. I had a bunch to send in on the June Special, so I just put the Mantle on a separate invoice and put it in the same package.
Let me remind every one what I was told by Joe Orlando via email AND telephone. Here is a copy of just one of the email conversations that I had.
*****************
Dear Mr Orlando,
I will not take a lot of your time. I do have a question regarding a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I am thinking of sending a 1952 Topps Mantle to PSA. Having studied counterfeits vs the real thing, I am sure this card is authentic. My question for you is based upon the fact that this Mantle is 100% genuine.
As you know, this card has an aqua blue background behind Mantle's head. The entire blue background on this card has been recolored with a marker of some sort. Of course, I am not asking you if PSA will slab this card if the graders deem it as a counterfeit. I understand that. My question is - will PSA slab that card at least as "Authentic" with the entire background being recolored (given the fact that it is authentic)?
Thank you for your time and your prompt reply. Have a nice day.
Shane Hardie
**********
We could slab it as authentic but we would have to note the alteration on the PSA label.
Take care,
Joe
*************
Notice in my email that I said "entire background".
I also talked to him by phone after that. I explained to him that the ENTIRE BACKGROUND had been recolored. I asked him about grading the card like it is and I also asked him about professional restoration. In both cases, he said that they would holder the card. I then asked him, "Where does PSA draw the line on the amount of alteration or restoration a card can have before it is rejected". He basically said, "Oh, I see what you are saying". He then said (not an exact quote, but a paraphrase), "Let me give you an example. Let's take a T206 Ty Cobb that has a common type back. Let's say someone somehow removed the common back and replaced it with a rare back. Since half of the card or more is not original, then we would not slab that card."
I also sent him a scan of the card via email. He told me on the phone to put some sort of note on the invoice that would get his attention, which I did.
So, I sent PSA the card around the end of June. They graded my June Special in record time (4 days), but several more days had passed and they still had not logged in my Mantle submission. So, I contacted Mr Orlando via email.
I don't have the exact email with me right now, but he emailed me back and basically said this (paraphrasing)...
"I was just getting read to contact you. Unfortunately, the recoloring was much more than we thought. As of now, PSA is not going to be able to holder this card for you. If you still have the card at a future date, we can re-open the issue, but right now, PSA will not be able to holder the card."
So, the bottom line is this - after emailing and talking on the phone and explaining every detail about the card, including sending scans, and after PSA said that they would have no problem slabbing the card, they went back on their word and said that they would not slab the card. I will give them some credit - they didn't charge me the $60 grading fees.
I then contacted the guy I bought the card from, and he stood behind it. I was already looking at buying some more things from him, so we met up last week and made a trade for the Mantle. He is a super nice guy. We will probably do more business in the future. We do have an agreement about the Mantle. I am going to try to move it for him on the B/S/T boards if anyone is interested.
Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not.
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes!
Sorry to hear that PSA decided not to slab the card, even though they said they would before you actually sent it in. I don't see a problem since they did not charge you the 60.00 fee.
I also agree with Matt and they should not have said yes before they actually saw it.
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes! >>
Shane, I would call Joe to see if it was "too much" alteration or that they thought is was not authentic.
The problem now is two major graders will not holder it. I don't even own a card of that value so maybe my opion doesn't mean much, but I would now go foward with the paint removal. I would try to get it into the best shape as possible and sell slab altered. .02 Dave
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes! >>
Shane, I would call Joe to see if it was "too much" alteration or that they thought is was not authentic. >>
He already made the clear. He said that it was too much. It wasn't a matter of being authentic or not.
"...they went back on their word and said that they would not slab the card...."
////////////////////////////////////////////
It sort of goes without saying that "their word" had to be contingent on them examining the card in person.
"..we could slab it.......," is somewhat short of "we will definitely slab it." (However, I suspect JO may not use the unqualified-phrase as freely in the future.)
In any event, we now know that there are some limits as to what will get slabbed "A."
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Sorry about the troubles but this goes back to the point that nothing should've been said one way or the other about what may or may not happen. The best policy would've been to ask you to send the card in for examination. I work in a position where I have to take others into consideration with my comments. Essentially I can make someone have a good or bad day based on the position I put them in. I am not saying that Joe is a terrible person. I am, however, saying that Joe will use this as a lesson for the future.
It's tough to tell things by a scan only. Currently I have a scan of a card that IMHO has a decent chance of being a counterfeit. However, the scan isn't a high resolution. With that being said, I can't definitively say one thing or another so I have to watch what I say.
I can understand what you guys were saying if I would have asked, "Hey, Mr Orlando, I'm going to send you a scan. Will such and such card grade a 5 or a 6?" The proper answer would then be, "I will not be able to tell you without examining the card." However, I equate my question to something like - "Will grade a 1952 Mantle that has been trimmed?" Mostly likely the answer to that would be, "Yes, but it will not get a numeric grade. It will have to go into an "Authentic" slab. There is a BIG difference there. To me, my question is a simple yes or no answer. I would have even accepted a "not sure" answer. That was not the case. When I got off the phone, there was no doubt in my mind that they would authenticate it. You will be able to tell this from my previous posts in this thread.
<< <i>When I got off the phone, there was no doubt in my mind that they would authenticate it. You will be able to tell this from my previous posts in this thread. >>
Understandable and you have a right to be upset IMHO.
I'm just saying that someone shouldn't have even gone that far as to say they would slab it without a preface of "if it meets the standards of our grading team".
The card is fine as it is, it would fit well in a low-grade raw 1952 set. I am glad that it did not get restored or even slabbed, even though I understand the letdown.
Comments
//////////////////////////////////////
DO NOT "follow" my "advice."
I am making suggestions for your consideration.
I am telling you what I would do; NOT what you SHOULD do.
Although, it's a pretty fine line between the two concepts
when communicating on a message board.
I would not do anything to hurt my personal property, and
I would not advise anybody here to do anything that I thought
would hurt their stuff either.
//////////////////////////////////
Matt Nelson:........ Check his price for paint removal only.
If it's cheap enough, it is likely a good play.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
The paint - based on the scans - looks NOTHING like Testors paint.
I killed billions of barin cells on that stuff as a 7-year old, and I know
what it looks like.
There was a shade that color, but the texture looks wrong.
If it is Testors, thinner will knock it off fast.
Tempera (Tempra) takes milk/water soaking.
OK - to answer the 2 questions - no and no, don't add injury to insult and "better" the black border or repaint it. The blue paint that is there and the way it covers just parts of the border is part of the charm of what the card is today. Leave it be if you're not going to do the restroration.
1975 mini's
1954 Wilson Franks
At the end of June, I decided to go ahead and send the Mantle in to PSA the way it is. I had a bunch to send in on the June Special, so I just put the Mantle on a separate invoice and put it in the same package.
Let me remind every one what I was told by Joe Orlando via email AND telephone. Here is a copy of just one of the email conversations that I had.
*****************
Dear Mr Orlando,
I will not take a lot of your time. I do have a question regarding a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I am thinking of sending a 1952 Topps Mantle to PSA. Having studied counterfeits vs the real thing, I am sure this card is authentic. My question for you is based upon the fact that this Mantle is 100% genuine.
As you know, this card has an aqua blue background behind Mantle's head. The entire blue background on this card has been recolored with a marker of some sort. Of course, I am not asking you if PSA will slab this card if the graders deem it as a counterfeit. I understand that. My question is - will PSA slab that card at least as "Authentic" with the entire background being recolored (given the fact that it is authentic)?
Thank you for your time and your prompt reply. Have a nice day.
Shane Hardie
**********
We could slab it as authentic but we would have to note the alteration on the PSA label.
Take care,
Joe
*************
Notice in my email that I said "entire background".
I also talked to him by phone after that. I explained to him that the ENTIRE BACKGROUND had been recolored. I asked him about grading the card like it is and I also asked him about professional restoration. In both cases, he said that they would holder the card. I then asked him, "Where does PSA draw the line on the amount of alteration or restoration a card can have before it is rejected". He basically said, "Oh, I see what you are saying". He then said (not an exact quote, but a paraphrase), "Let me give you an example. Let's take a T206 Ty Cobb that has a common type back. Let's say someone somehow removed the common back and replaced it with a rare back. Since half of the card or more is not original, then we would not slab that card."
I also sent him a scan of the card via email. He told me on the phone to put some sort of note on the invoice that would get his attention, which I did.
So, I sent PSA the card around the end of June. They graded my June Special in record time (4 days), but several more days had passed and they still had not logged in my Mantle submission. So, I contacted Mr Orlando via email.
I don't have the exact email with me right now, but he emailed me back and basically said this (paraphrasing)...
"I was just getting read to contact you. Unfortunately, the recoloring was much more than we thought. As of now, PSA is not going to be able to holder this card for you. If you still have the card at a future date, we can re-open the issue, but right now, PSA will not be able to holder the card."
So, the bottom line is this - after emailing and talking on the phone and explaining every detail about the card, including sending scans, and after PSA said that they would have no problem slabbing the card, they went back on their word and said that they would not slab the card. I will give them some credit - they didn't charge me the $60 grading fees.
I then contacted the guy I bought the card from, and he stood behind it. I was already looking at buying some more things from him, so we met up last week and made a trade for the Mantle. He is a super nice guy. We will probably do more business in the future. We do have an agreement about the Mantle. I am going to try to move it for him on the B/S/T boards if anyone is interested.
Shane
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes!
Shane
<< <i>......Please read the following carefully so that you will get a full grasp of the details........ >>
Duh, I better read it really careful George.
Didn't need to read any further than that. I would have grasped it no matter how careful or not I would have read it .
<< <i>
<< <i>......Please read the following carefully so that you will get a full grasp of the details........ >>
Duh, I better read it really careful George.
Didn't need to read any further than that. I would have grasped it no matter how careful or not I would have read it . >>
I just didn't want people to skim over it, like we all do sometimes. I edited and took that line out. Now, back to the issue.
Shane
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Shane
before you actually sent it in. I don't see a problem since they did not charge you the 60.00 fee.
I also agree with Matt and they should not have said yes before they actually saw it.
People can and do change minds.
In any event why not just keep it?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes! >>
Shane, I would call Joe to see if it was "too much" alteration or that they thought is was not authentic.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
.02
Dave
1957 Topps 99% 7.40 GPA
Hank Aaron Basic PSA 7-8(75%)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Imo, the proper way to handle something like this would have been to tell the customer that the card would have to be sent in for an evaluation before a decision would be made on slabbing it or not. >>
I see your point. I was just looking for guidance on what to do. To me, it was pretty clear cut. The issue was not authenticity. My question to him was based upon the fact that card was indeed authentic. To me, it is cut and dry - the entire background has been recolored - will that keep it from going into a slab? The answer I was given was - no! In reality, the answer was - yes! >>
Shane, I would call Joe to see if it was "too much" alteration or that they thought is was not authentic. >>
He already made the clear. He said that it was too much. It wasn't a matter of being authentic or not.
Shane
////////////////////////////////////////////
It sort of goes without saying that "their word" had to be contingent
on them examining the card in person.
"..we could slab it.......," is somewhat short of "we will definitely slab it."
(However, I suspect JO may not use the unqualified-phrase as freely in the future.)
In any event, we now know that there are some limits as to what will
get slabbed "A."
It's tough to tell things by a scan only. Currently I have a scan of a card that IMHO has a decent chance of being a counterfeit. However, the scan isn't a high resolution. With that being said, I can't definitively say one thing or another so I have to watch what I say.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
Shane
<< <i>When I got off the phone, there was no doubt in my mind that they would authenticate it. You will be able to tell this from my previous posts in this thread. >>
Understandable and you have a right to be upset IMHO.
I'm just saying that someone shouldn't have even gone that far as to say they would slab it without a preface of "if it meets the standards of our grading team".
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>How much are you going to be asking for the altered Mantle when you offer it for sale for your friend >>
Mike, he has it listed on the Vintage board now for $3,400.
Snorto~
i agree, it was a bit of a letdown, but you also mentioned SGC wanted nothing to do with it as well...
sorry it didnt work out for you.
<< <i>I wonder whatever happened to this Mantle rookie?
Explanation given in "the other thread".
Bottom line is that Jason gave me my money back and it is his now.
Shane
<< <i>Tremendous. >>
Yes, it is, isn't it.
Shane