What are you calling a shame? The fact that we are talking about restoration? I personally don't see anything wrong with restoring a card as long as it is disclosed as such on a PSA holder. My intent would not be to deceive. My intent would only be to enhance the eye appeal. Someone mentioned earlier that someone could then bust it out of the authentic holder and then try to pass it off as a high grade, unaltered card. I cannot control that, just as I could not control someone ELSE taking this card like it is and getting it restored theirself and passing it off as a high grade, unaltered card.
Having said all of that, I am not sure what I will do. As far as the ethics of card restoration, I really am not sure what is normally accepted. All I have is my opinion, which, I am sure, differs from others. That is why I am wanting as many opinions as possible. I will take what I have gathered and then make an informed decision.
If the card is restored it will never be gradable or confused with an original unaltered card. He's not trying to fix up an original unaltered VG card and make an EX card. He's taking a horribly defaced and ungradable damaged card and restoring it to a more pleasant looking ungradable damaged card.
Fantastic pickup....does your friend have another one?? Congrats. First thing is get it slabbed so that you know its authentic and your friend is off the hook, so to speak.
Now, If you were selling it then go for it. But if you are keeping it, I'd crack it out of the slab, have it professionally restored, and then you've got an amazing centerpiece of your collection.
Selling or keeping probably depends on how good of a deal you got.... If I got a really good deal, I'd probably do what you are doing and flip it. Then buy a beater that matches your existing set. I mean, if you have no intention of building a mid grade set in the future, why put the extra money into the mantle? Especially when you presumably still need the mays, robinson, and matthews.
I applaud the choice to build a beater set, and might do one myself....
Interesting Kb, I wonder what the extent of the alterations were with that particular card and if Frank's card could be brought to that condition .
I would say if they could make my card look that great I would do it for sure , that thing looks beautiful , even though it has no grade and the alterations were disclosed so they were not trying to scam anyone either .
The best it will EVER do at PSA is "authentic." >>
I agree. It will only EVER get an "authentic", which is fine. However, we all know that there is a difference between an authentic slabbed card that looks very bad and authentic slabbed card like the one in Robert Edward Auctions. I believe that there is a huge market for restored cards and that market will only grow. I would much rather pay $7,500 for that restored SGC example vs paying $40,000 for a PSA 7 or even $12,000 for a PSA 4. (Of course, that is only hypothetical since I don't have that kind of cash).
This is a tough decision,I think if you could find a reputable company to restore the Mantle it would definatley be worth considering.I guess check a couple places out and see what they could realisticly do for the card.
I would not pay $7,500 for that pretty restored card.
But, if I was in your card for $1K+/-, I would add another $700+/- to fix it.
There is a good chance that all the card needs is to have the paint removed. Once the doctor identifies the paint, the rest is pretty easy.
I have had alot of early stamp-album pages fixed. Insect damage mostly; some foxing fixes. If the patient dies, the doctor still gets paid. I am a big proponent of do-it-yourself. BUT, I probably would not choose the subject card as my first patient.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
If the card is restored it will never be gradable or confused with an original unaltered card.
Are you sure about that?
I would not be surprised if PSA couldn't tell if this card had been restored, if professionally done. Some cards they slabbed as Authentic and Altered but you would think that a slab just saying Authentic would imply that it has not been restored or altered. Then what happens after it gets cracked? That's why, in my opinion, it's not a good idea to go down this route.
Interesting decision to make here. Would there be any chance of the card being ruined during restoration? That looks like one tough thing to try to remove off a printed piece of cardboard. Perhaps it might be wise to ask them if they can tell exactly what type of stuff is on the card, and have they had previous success removing this exact stuff off of a 1952 Topps card. I don't think you would want the restorers "experimenting" with a card such as this, in my opinion.
I have not found anybody who guarantees the patient will survive.
BUT, once the paint is identified it is close to a snap.
They make you sign a comprehensive release, before they operate.
I would have no reservations allowing an expert a shot at it.
BUT, keep in mind, if it was mine, I would have already fixed/ruined it myself.
I will never forget the first-time, 50-years ago, I squirted lighter fluid on a $1K stamp to determine if it was worth $4K. (Parental supervision.)
>>
Perhaps a good idea would be to try to figure out what the "crap" is on the card, and try to purchase something similar to it, take a near worthless Topps 52 common, spread the crap on there, let it dry and harden for maybe a month, and then see what happens when trying to remove it with various techniques. Not a perfect scientific experiment to duplicate results on the 52 Mantle, but at least it might be some indication of success before possibly ruining the 52 Mantle.
"BUT, keep in mind, if it was mine, I would have already fixed/ruined it myself. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same here if anyone is going to screw it up , it is going to be me , I'll take my time doing it , at least I know I definitely screwed it up .
I don't think I would try it on that card as my first though .
<< <i>Interesting Kb, I wonder what the extent of the alterations were with that particular card and if Frank's card could be brought to that condition .
I would say if they could make my card look that great I would do it for sure , that thing looks beautiful , even though it has no grade and the alterations were disclosed so they were not trying to scam anyone either . >>
^^I'm with you^^
EDIT: But, I might add, I would never sell if I did get one restored. It would be for pure enjoyment to look at in my personal collection.
Congrats on getting an outstanding card!!!! A 1952 Mantle is obviously the centerpiece of any collection in virtually any condition. Your Mantle presents quite nicely. I have no issue with restoring cards. If someone doesn't note it was restored when reselling then I would obviously take issue with that. However, restoring cards will never go away now that it can be done. So, we will just have to hope people act responsibly and the authenticators stay a step ahead.
As far as the material that has been added to the card, here is my take on it: I think it would come right off, and I think it could be removed in a way that would be undetectable. Assuming it did come right off, it would be up to you to decide whether you wanted to disclose that if you went to sell it, as PSA or SGC would never be able to tell when they go to grade it.
Side note: Never ever use nail polish remover on a card, it does not evaporate quickly and has no affect on removing anything from the surface of a card. And do not rub the surface of a card with a q-tip, that will do nothing but destroy the card.
That said, it becomes a question of who you want to remove the foreign substance from the card. You probably could do it yourself, but a lot of people are scared of the idea of submerging a card in any sort of liquid. If it were me, it would have been soaked shortly after I received it. I'd guess that there is a half decent chance that water alone could remove whatever that stuff is. If water didn't work, then would be where you would have to make a decision about where to go from there. Professional restoration is an option, and I have little doubt a professional conservator could get that stuff off, but they may need to utilize some techniques that will make the restoration easily detectable.
As others have mentioned, there is an ethical dilemma involved with this entire subject. Is it ethical to restore a card to a point where it is as close as possible to what it looked like when it was originally produced? And, should that restoration be disclosed? There really is no one single accepted answer throughout the hobby. Some people don't mind that a card was restored as long as they know it was. Others feel that soaking in water, which is undetectable when it is done properly, is ok and some feel it is not. I can guarantee every single person reading this thread that if you own any high dollar cards in PSA or SGC holders, you definitely own cards that have been soaked, and you should not be alarmed or concerned, it is a well-documented process in the hobby that was utilized regularly by the pioneers (Burdick, Nagy, etc.).
that's a good looking card. i think i would like to have it
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
This is tough. I honestly don't know what to do. I think I will at least try to contact PSA again and also contact Matt Nelson's company and then make a decision.
<< <i>I suspect there must be some writing under the paint. There does not come to mind another rational reason to paint a card. Such writing might be less attractive than the paint; might not.
Maybe there are some swear-words under there. >>
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Maybe it's a map to the Ark of the Covenant.
Edited to add...painted or not, that's a great looking Mantle. Congrats!!
In my view, successfully removing a foreign substance from a card doesn't at all detract from the beauty of a card and shouldn't negatively affect the value, it should enhance it.
However, altering the natural wear of say a VG card to try to turn it into say an EXMT card - that is VERY bad in my viewpoint and that should negatively affect the value of a card - I wouldn't own a card such as that. But if this foreign substance is removed from the card and it gets in say a PSA 5 slab, I would be happy to own that card, if I could afford it that is.
Good luck with contacting Matt Nelson, he usually works in comic books but since he is so intimately familiar with paper generally and the removal of substances from it, I'd say he's your best bet. One thing for sure is, he's a pro. If he doesn't feel he's the best choice to work on your card, he'll let you know who is.
I know if I bought that card, I would have to see if I could get it off. Great pickup, but the not knowing "what if", you simply kill me to keep it in my possession as is. Good luck either way.
The best pitch to start a hitter off with is always strike one.
It's killing me not knowing what PSA will do. They said that graders will not talk on the phone. I asked to talk to Joe Orlando and they said he was on vacation this week.
I emailed him last week. Here is the word for word email.
*********
Dear Mr Orlando,
I will not take a lot of your time. I do have a question regarding a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I am thinking of sending a 1952 Topps Mantle to PSA. Having studied counterfeits vs the real thing, I am sure this card is authentic. My question for you is based upon the fact that this Mantle is 100% genuine.
As you know, this card has an aqua blue background behind Mantle's head. The entire blue background on this card has been recolored with a marker of some sort. Of course, I am not asking you if PSA will slab this card if the graders deem it as a counterfeit. I understand that. My question is - will PSA slab that card at least as "Authentic" with the entire background being recolored (given the fact that it is authentic)?
Thank you for your time and your prompt reply. Have a nice day.
Shane Hardie
**********
As you can see, I was pretty specific. Here is his reply.
************
We could slab it as authentic but we would have to note the alteration on the PSA label.
Take care,
Joe
*************
Again, I need to take is a step further and find out if they will slab this with this much restoration needed. I know that there is a limit to the restoration that can be done. I just don't know what that limit is.
Like I said earlier, you would be much better off with an "Authentic" label than an "Authentic - Altered" label. There's never been any doubt in my mind what to do.
<< <i>Like I said earlier, you would be much better off with an "Authentic" label than an "Authentic - Altered" label. There's never been any doubt in my mind what to do. >>
If I sent it in like it is, wouldn't they label it "Authentic - Recolored" (or something similar)?
<< <i>Like I said earlier, you would be much better off with an "Authentic" label than an "Authentic - Altered" label. There's never been any doubt in my mind what to do. >>
If I sent it in like it is, wouldn't they label it "Authentic - Recolored" (or something similar)? >>
I don't know, actually. I would still contend that even that would be better than the negative connotation of "Altered/Restored".
Well, at least mine is in better shape than this one! This one has to top the list of the lowest condition Mantle I've ever seen. I think you will agree. This is worse than the BVG authentic that was sold a few weeks ago. This one might get a PRO 7.
Here is an update on the Mantle. I did get specific confirmation from Joe Orlando this evening. PSA will holder the card as "Authentic" like it is. If it is restored, they will still holder it, but it will be noted on the flip.
I have been in tough with these folks up in Chicago - Graphic Conservation. They will charge a $25 fee to get a proposal done. From what I understand, Mastro has sent cards to these people. Unless someone can convince me to go to someone else, this company is who I am considering. They might be more expensive than some companies. Please chime in if you have someone that you want to recommend (even if you've already recommended them, that way I can consider all the possibilities at one time).
You need to make it clear to them that the scope of the work is limited to a certain improvement-range. You don't want to pay to have it made to look brand new; you just want it to be more presentable.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
You need to make it clear to them that the scope of the work is limited to a certain improvement-range. You don't want to pay to have it made to look brand new; you just want it to be more presentable. >>
Why is that? Because it might cost too much? Because you are afraid it might not get holdered? Other reason? My plan (if I decided on restoration) was going all the way with it. Should I not go all the way?
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't go all the way with it. See what they can do and maximize the way you want the card to look. I've heard good things about the Chicago company you mentioned so I think that's a great starting point.
<< <i>Sigh. Why don't you have someone just make a card for you, or perhaps take a reprint and put a real back on it?
I know that's snarky but it's a bad slope, imo. The temptation will be too great sometime in the future to fool grading companies or potential buyers. >>
I know what you are saying. However, I don't think that there is anyway possible for a card like this to get restored and get by with a numerical grade. It may be possible for one that has had a very, very slight restoration to get by. I'm sure a trimmed card or two has gotten by, but they catch the overwhelming majority of them. As long as it gets into a PSA holder that is labeld "authentic/altered" holder, I see no problem with that. There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it.
Nice Mantle Rookie. Hope you get it in a slab. Treasure it anyway.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"Why is that? Because it might cost too much? Because you are afraid it might not get holdered? Other reason? My plan (if I decided on restoration) was going all the way with it. Should I not go all the way?"
....
"There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it. "
Possible faulty assumption. I don't see a "huge" market. I see a VERY small market.
The recent $7,500 sale was likely close to the near-term top for restored like-items.
As evidenced by many of the comments here, the current market likes "original" material. That may not always be true, or it may become more true.
My Rule: If I cannot double my money, I am not going to spend my money. One-dollar of restoration must equal two-dollars value added. (This would hold true whether I wanted to flip the thing quickly, or hold it.)
Another step along the way: Have JO look at that card, before you send it to the restorers.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>"Why is that? Because it might cost too much? Because you are afraid it might not get holdered? Other reason? My plan (if I decided on restoration) was going all the way with it. Should I not go all the way?"
....
"There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it. "
Possible faulty assumption. I don't see a "huge" market. I see a VERY small market.
The recent $7,500 sale was likely close to the near-term top for restored like-items.
As evidenced by many of the comments here, the current market likes "original" material. That may not always be true, or it may become more true.
My Rule: If I cannot double my money, I am not going to spend my money. One-dollar of restoration must equal two-dollars value added. (This would hold true whether I wanted to flip the thing quickly, or hold it.)
Another step along the way: Have JO look at that card, before you send it to the restorers. >>
I stand corrected. The market may not be huge, but there definitely is a market. I also think that the market for that type of thing is growing and will continue to grow as the price for the 52 Mantle continues to escalate.
What I am about to say is my personal opinion. I know it will be different than some, but this is just me. If I had $30,000 to spend on cards, and I had the choice of buying a PSA 7 52 Mantle, or the SGC altered Mantle for $7500, I would rather have the altered one because that would leave $22,500 to spend on the rest of a 52 Topps set. Again, that is just me.
The painted card will never look NRMT, dont compare your card to the restored PSA=A card pictured earlier in post., they didnt start out the same.
The NRMT+ looking restored examples mainly had their slightly worn corners and edges rebuilt with added fibers (easy), not 40+% of the front surface restored.
Big difference.
For a (stupid) time in the mid 1980-90s many high $$ cards were restored (like the PSA-A Mantle, many R319 Ruths, almost 1/2 the known E271's, etc.). The restored 1952 Mantle example was probably in the VG/EX - EX range before the idiot restored in back in the early 80's-90's. If it was left untampered with it would have brought 2-3X more $$ in this day and age.
The only cards that should be considered for complete restoration would be a card with heavy damage (ie. all those E271's with huge nail holes in the middle, a card that was torn in half or skinned, or a card that had its backing or large border removed (ie. Just So card recently restored).
IMO If you are going to do anything to the card just try to have the paint removed, but dont tamper with adding anything else to the card.
I am also thinking the kid painted it because there is something under the paint he wanted covered up????
Comments
Having said all of that, I am not sure what I will do. As far as the ethics of card restoration, I really am not sure what is normally accepted. All I have is my opinion, which, I am sure, differs from others. That is why I am wanting as many opinions as possible. I will take what I have gathered and then make an informed decision.
Shane
It's a shame someone colored in such a nicely centered card .
Personally , I wouldn't restore the card , but that is just me .
It could never be graded so why even bother about eye appeal .
For the faint-hearted, these boys
http://www.classicsincorporated.com/
and others, are probably the safest route.
The fees will likely move the thing closer to the PSA 1 range,
but it will be a MUCH nicer card to own/sell.
Steve
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=10408
Now, If you were selling it then go for it. But if you are keeping it, I'd crack it out of the slab, have it professionally restored, and then you've got an amazing centerpiece of your collection.
Selling or keeping probably depends on how good of a deal you got.... If I got a really good deal, I'd probably do what you are doing and flip it. Then buy a beater that matches your existing set. I mean, if you have no intention of building a mid grade set in the future, why put the extra money into the mantle? Especially when you presumably still need the mays, robinson, and matthews.
I applaud the choice to build a beater set, and might do one myself....
Topps Heritage - Trade Page
Are we saying that this card can possibly get a grade of PSA 1 if it has been colored or restored/ stripped or whatever .
I was under the impression that once a card has been altered it is not gradeable ,
unless it is a 1909T 206 Sweet Caporal Honus Wagner
I'm a little confused , if it were possible I could get a grade of a PSA 1 I would do it I guess < Shrug >
I would say if they could make my card look that great I would do it for sure , that thing looks beautiful , even though it has no grade and the alterations were disclosed so they were not trying to scam anyone either .
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The best it will EVER do at PSA is "authentic."
<< <i>"Are we saying that this card can possibly get a grade of PSA 1 if it has been colored or restored/ stripped or whatever ."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The best it will EVER do at PSA is "authentic." >>
I agree. It will only EVER get an "authentic", which is fine. However, we all know that there is a difference between an authentic slabbed card that looks very bad and authentic slabbed card like the one in Robert Edward Auctions. I believe that there is a huge market for restored cards and that market will only grow. I would much rather pay $7,500 for that restored SGC example vs paying $40,000 for a PSA 7 or even $12,000 for a PSA 4. (Of course, that is only hypothetical since I don't have that kind of cash).
Shane
the Mantle it would definatley be worth considering.I guess check a couple places out and
see what they could realisticly do for the card.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I would not pay $7,500 for that pretty restored card.
But, if I was in your card for $1K+/-, I would add another $700+/- to fix it.
There is a good chance that all the card needs is to have the paint removed.
Once the doctor identifies the paint, the rest is pretty easy.
I have had alot of early stamp-album pages fixed. Insect damage mostly; some
foxing fixes. If the patient dies, the doctor still gets paid. I am a big proponent
of do-it-yourself. BUT, I probably would not choose the subject card as my first
patient.
Are you sure about that?
I would not be surprised if PSA couldn't tell if this card had been restored, if professionally done. Some cards they slabbed as Authentic and Altered but you would think that a slab just saying Authentic would imply that it has not been restored or altered. Then what happens after it gets cracked? That's why, in my opinion, it's not a good idea to go down this route.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I have not found anybody who guarantees the patient will survive.
BUT, once the paint is identified it is close to a snap.
They make you sign a comprehensive release, before they operate.
I would have no reservations allowing an expert a shot at it.
BUT, keep in mind, if it was mine, I would have already fixed/ruined
it myself.
I will never forget the first-time, 50-years ago, I squirted lighter fluid
on a $1K stamp to determine if it was worth $4K. (Parental supervision.)
<< <i>"Would there be any chance of the card being ruined during restoration?"
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I have not found anybody who guarantees the patient will survive.
BUT, once the paint is identified it is close to a snap.
They make you sign a comprehensive release, before they operate.
I would have no reservations allowing an expert a shot at it.
BUT, keep in mind, if it was mine, I would have already fixed/ruined
it myself.
I will never forget the first-time, 50-years ago, I squirted lighter fluid
on a $1K stamp to determine if it was worth $4K. (Parental supervision.)
Perhaps a good idea would be to try to figure out what the "crap" is on the card, and try to purchase something similar to it, take a near worthless Topps 52 common, spread the crap on there, let it dry and harden for maybe a month, and then see what happens when trying to remove it with various techniques. Not a perfect scientific experiment to duplicate results on the 52 Mantle, but at least it might be some indication of success before possibly ruining the 52 Mantle.
it myself. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same here if anyone is going to screw it up , it is going to be me , I'll take my time doing it , at least I know I definitely screwed it up .
I don't think I would try it on that card as my first though .
My take?
If the card can be cleaned up to look like it did before someone took paint to it? I would.
And that's all I'm gonna say.
mike
<< <i>Interesting Kb, I wonder what the extent of the alterations were with that particular card and if Frank's card could be brought to that condition .
I would say if they could make my card look that great I would do it for sure , that thing looks beautiful , even though it has no grade and the alterations were disclosed so they were not trying to scam anyone either . >>
^^I'm with you^^
EDIT: But, I might add, I would never sell if I did get one restored. It would be for pure enjoyment to look at in my personal collection.
As far as the material that has been added to the card, here is my take on it: I think it would come right off, and I think it could be removed in a way that would be undetectable. Assuming it did come right off, it would be up to you to decide whether you wanted to disclose that if you went to sell it, as PSA or SGC would never be able to tell when they go to grade it.
Side note: Never ever use nail polish remover on a card, it does not evaporate quickly and has no affect on removing anything from the surface of a card. And do not rub the surface of a card with a q-tip, that will do nothing but destroy the card.
That said, it becomes a question of who you want to remove the foreign substance from the card. You probably could do it yourself, but a lot of people are scared of the idea of submerging a card in any sort of liquid. If it were me, it would have been soaked shortly after I received it. I'd guess that there is a half decent chance that water alone could remove whatever that stuff is. If water didn't work, then would be where you would have to make a decision about where to go from there. Professional restoration is an option, and I have little doubt a professional conservator could get that stuff off, but they may need to utilize some techniques that will make the restoration easily detectable.
As others have mentioned, there is an ethical dilemma involved with this entire subject. Is it ethical to restore a card to a point where it is as close as possible to what it looked like when it was originally produced? And, should that restoration be disclosed? There really is no one single accepted answer throughout the hobby. Some people don't mind that a card was restored as long as they know it was. Others feel that soaking in water, which is undetectable when it is done properly, is ok and some feel it is not. I can guarantee every single person reading this thread that if you own any high dollar cards in PSA or SGC holders, you definitely own cards that have been soaked, and you should not be alarmed or concerned, it is a well-documented process in the hobby that was utilized regularly by the pioneers (Burdick, Nagy, etc.).
Good luck with whatever you decide to do with it.
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
Shane
Great Pick up on the 52 Mick, awsome centering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After reading this thread and all the discussion, If I was in your shoes I would consult with a professional to potentially have this card Restored.
Good luck either way...
<< <i>I suspect there must be some writing under the paint. There does
not come to mind another rational reason to paint a card. Such
writing might be less attractive than the paint; might not.
Maybe there are some swear-words under there. >>
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Maybe it's a map to the Ark of the Covenant.
Edited to add...painted or not, that's a great looking Mantle. Congrats!!
ebay i.d. clydecoolidge - Lots of vintage stars and HOFers, raw, condition fully disclosed.
However, altering the natural wear of say a VG card to try to turn it into say an EXMT card - that is VERY bad in my viewpoint and that should negatively affect the value of a card - I wouldn't own a card such as that. But if this foreign substance is removed from the card and it gets in say a PSA 5 slab, I would be happy to own that card, if I could afford it that is.
I emailed him last week. Here is the word for word email.
*********
Dear Mr Orlando,
I will not take a lot of your time. I do have a question regarding a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I am thinking of sending a 1952 Topps Mantle to PSA. Having studied counterfeits vs the real thing, I am sure this card is authentic. My question for you is based upon the fact that this Mantle is 100% genuine.
As you know, this card has an aqua blue background behind Mantle's head. The entire blue background on this card has been recolored with a marker of some sort. Of course, I am not asking you if PSA will slab this card if the graders deem it as a counterfeit. I understand that. My question is - will PSA slab that card at least as "Authentic" with the entire background being recolored (given the fact that it is authentic)?
Thank you for your time and your prompt reply. Have a nice day.
Shane Hardie
**********
As you can see, I was pretty specific. Here is his reply.
************
We could slab it as authentic but we would have to note the alteration on the PSA label.
Take care,
Joe
*************
Again, I need to take is a step further and find out if they will slab this with this much restoration needed. I know that there is a limit to the restoration that can be done. I just don't know what that limit is.
Shane
<< <i>Like I said earlier, you would be much better off with an "Authentic" label than an "Authentic - Altered" label. There's never been any doubt in my mind what to do. >>
If I sent it in like it is, wouldn't they label it "Authentic - Recolored" (or something similar)?
Shane
<< <i>
<< <i>Like I said earlier, you would be much better off with an "Authentic" label than an "Authentic - Altered" label. There's never been any doubt in my mind what to do. >>
If I sent it in like it is, wouldn't they label it "Authentic - Recolored" (or something similar)? >>
I don't know, actually. I would still contend that even that would be better than the negative connotation of "Altered/Restored".
1952 Topps Mantle
Shane
I have been in tough with these folks up in Chicago - Graphic Conservation. They will charge a $25 fee to get a proposal done. From what I understand, Mastro has sent cards to these people. Unless someone can convince me to go to someone else, this company is who I am considering. They might be more expensive than some companies. Please chime in if you have someone that you want to recommend (even if you've already recommended them, that way I can consider all the possibilities at one time).
Shane
I would like to get more than one opinion/quote.
You need to make it clear to them that the scope of the work is
limited to a certain improvement-range. You don't want to pay
to have it made to look brand new; you just want it to be more presentable.
<< <i>$25 for the proposal is fine.
I would like to get more than one opinion/quote.
You need to make it clear to them that the scope of the work is
limited to a certain improvement-range. You don't want to pay
to have it made to look brand new; you just want it to be more presentable. >>
Why is that? Because it might cost too much? Because you are afraid it might not get holdered? Other reason? My plan (if I decided on restoration) was going all the way with it. Should I not go all the way?
Shane
Collect Auctions
I know that's snarky but it's a bad slope, imo. The temptation will be too great sometime in the future to fool grading companies or potential buyers.
<< <i>Sigh. Why don't you have someone just make a card for you, or perhaps take a reprint and put a real back on it?
I know that's snarky but it's a bad slope, imo. The temptation will be too great sometime in the future to fool grading companies or potential buyers. >>
I know what you are saying. However, I don't think that there is anyway possible for a card like this to get restored and get by with a numerical grade. It may be possible for one that has had a very, very slight restoration to get by. I'm sure a trimmed card or two has gotten by, but they catch the overwhelming majority of them. As long as it gets into a PSA holder that is labeld "authentic/altered" holder, I see no problem with that. There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it.
Shane
Hope you get it in a slab.
Treasure it anyway.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
....
"There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it. "
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Possible faulty assumption. I don't see a "huge" market. I see a VERY small market.
The recent $7,500 sale was likely close to the near-term top for restored like-items.
As evidenced by many of the comments here, the current market likes "original" material.
That may not always be true, or it may become more true.
My Rule: If I cannot double my money, I am not going to spend my money. One-dollar
of restoration must equal two-dollars value added. (This would hold true whether I wanted
to flip the thing quickly, or hold it.)
Another step along the way: Have JO look at that card, before you send it to the restorers.
<< <i>"Why is that? Because it might cost too much? Because you are afraid it might not get holdered? Other reason? My plan (if I decided on restoration) was going all the way with it. Should I not go all the way?"
....
"There is a huge market for this for someone that wants a "nice looking" Mantle, but they don't want to pay "nice grade" money for it. "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Possible faulty assumption. I don't see a "huge" market. I see a VERY small market.
The recent $7,500 sale was likely close to the near-term top for restored like-items.
As evidenced by many of the comments here, the current market likes "original" material.
That may not always be true, or it may become more true.
My Rule: If I cannot double my money, I am not going to spend my money. One-dollar
of restoration must equal two-dollars value added. (This would hold true whether I wanted
to flip the thing quickly, or hold it.)
Another step along the way: Have JO look at that card, before you send it to the restorers. >>
I stand corrected. The market may not be huge, but there definitely is a market. I also think that the market for that type of thing is growing and will continue to grow as the price for the 52 Mantle continues to escalate.
What I am about to say is my personal opinion. I know it will be different than some, but this is just me. If I had $30,000 to spend on cards, and I had the choice of buying a PSA 7 52 Mantle, or the SGC altered Mantle for $7500, I would rather have the altered one because that would leave $22,500 to spend on the rest of a 52 Topps set. Again, that is just me.
Shane
The NRMT+ looking restored examples mainly had their slightly worn corners and edges rebuilt with added fibers (easy), not 40+% of the front surface restored.
Big difference.
For a (stupid) time in the mid 1980-90s many high $$ cards were restored (like the PSA-A Mantle, many R319 Ruths, almost 1/2 the known E271's, etc.). The restored 1952 Mantle example was probably in the VG/EX - EX range before the idiot restored in back in the early 80's-90's. If it was left untampered with it would have brought 2-3X more $$ in this day and age.
The only cards that should be considered for complete restoration would be a card with heavy damage (ie. all those E271's with huge nail holes in the middle, a card that was torn in half or skinned, or a card that had its backing or large border removed (ie. Just So card recently restored).
IMO If you are going to do anything to the card just try to have the paint removed, but dont tamper with adding anything else to the card.
I am also thinking the kid painted it because there is something under the paint he wanted covered up????
<< <i>Why don't you just soak the bad boy and see what happens. >>
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It requires a huge leap of faith the first time you toss a card into the Pyrex-pond.
The OP doubts his ability to do it "right," and such doubt is understandable... even if ill-founded.