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The Dave Kingman Official HOF Thread

MeteoriteGuyMeteoriteGuy Posts: 7,140 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
He is 34th on MLB All-Time Home Run List with 442!

































jk.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.

Comments

  • interchangesinterchanges Posts: 864 ✭
    but he struck out a boatload of times!
  • metalmikemetalmike Posts: 2,152 ✭✭
    Kingman was a awsome hittter but I would have to go with Dale Murphy over him. Kingman was feast or famine, ,he struck out too often, played for too many teams and Dale was a better all around player.
    USN 1977-1987 * ALL cards are commons unless auto'd. Buying Britneycards. NWO for life.
  • ymareaymarea Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭
    Big Dave was a career .236 hitter who had more strikeouts than basehits and was a liability in the field. Despite the excellent HR numbers, he reached 100 RBI in only 2 seasons and never scored as many as 100 in a year, reaching 90 only once. Even though he was always a power threat, he seldom walked and had a very low career on-base percentage and a less-than-impressive .478 career slugging percentage. He reached 20 doubles in a season only 3 times, with a career high of only 23. Kingman was the stereotypical "clout or out" power hitter. It was a homerun or nothing with him.

    I don't mean to beat him up, as I was a fan of his. His 1972 RC remains one of my all-time favorites. ( I think it's a real cool-looking card!) "Kong" Kingman, as exciting as he was, simply was not a HOF calibre player.
    Brett
  • ymareaymarea Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>but he struck out a boatload of times! >>



    That's true about Kingman, but that's not what is keeping him out of the HOF. I believe that Mickey Mantle, Willie Stargell, and Reggie Jackson all retired as the number one whiff artist of all-time. However, each one of those players had SO much more going for him. The point is that a boatload of strikeouts by itself isn't enough to keep a hitter out of the HALL. Kingman had nothing other than HR ability.
    Brett
  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
    Dave Kingman for the HOF? ROFL!!!!!!!!
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No HOF for Kong.
    *For Sale on BST* *For Sale on Ebay*
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feast or famine sums up Kong very well especially when he played for the Mets, though he had some more productive years with Chicago and even a season or two with Oakland. I remember one year when he was with the Mets, almost HALF of his base hits were home runs, LOL, and he'd hit almost 40 homers with fewer than ninety RBI. That's pretty tough to do!! He was a surly guy, really nasty to reporters (once he sent a dead rat in a box to a beat writer here in NY), but he was a fan favorite because of the long ball. HOF? No way.

    Edit: I meant almost 40 homers with fewer than 90 RBI, LOL...


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • BobaFett72BobaFett72 Posts: 7,304
    He and Jose Canseco can start their own HOF image

    Kingman was a real jerk to a lot of folks. pathetic batting average, less than impressive RBI totals.

    not a shot in hell.
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course, Dave Kingman in the HOF is a joke.

    But I guarantee you - not a shadow of a doubt in my mind - that many, if not most people would argue in our frequent HOF threads here that he DID belong if he had played his entire career on the Boston Red Sox.

    I am reasonably sure that he would actually BE in the HOF if he had played for the Red Sox.


    {This is due to the relative ease with which a player like Kingman could have (and did) hit HR in Fenway, not to any Red Sox bias}
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,636 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Of course, Dave Kingman in the HOF is a joke.

    But I guarantee you - not a shadow of a doubt in my mind - that many, if not most people would argue in our frequent HOF threads here that he DID belong if he had played his entire career on the Boston Red Sox.

    I am reasonably sure that he would actually BE in the HOF if he had played for the Red Sox.


    {This is due to the relative ease with which a player like Kingman could have (and did) hit HR in Fenway, not to any Red Sox bias} >>




    Im not a huge supporter for Rice being in the HOF- yes I would like to see it but wont argue it either way so Im pretty sure I would feel the same way about Kingman. I would like to think most reasonable Sox fans feel this way..
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Since Kingman only had around 1700 AL at bats, and he played mainly in the west how many homers did he hit at Fenway?

    I would think he had less then 100 at bats at Fenway.

    Not enough to say with any certainty what he would have done there?


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • calaban7calaban7 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭
    I remember seeing as a teenager, on TV , Kingman swatting one of the longest homers I've ever seen. On April 14 , 1976 with the wind blowing out at Wrigley Field, he smashed a Tom Dettore pitch out of the park that landed 3 or 4 streets over. It hit the upper story of a building. It was almost as breath taking as Reggie Jackson's 1971 Allstar game homer in Detriot off the light towers.

    It was all or nothing for King Kong. I would have hated to get on his bad side, and receive mail.........
    " In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Frank Howard deserves to be in more than Kingman and that will not likely happen...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • calaban7calaban7 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Since Kingman only had around 1700 AL at bats, and he played mainly in the west how many homers did he hit at Fenway?

    I would think he had less then 100 at bats at Fenway.

    Not enough to say with any certainty what he would have done there?


    Steve >>



    I checked Retrosheet for Kingmans Fenway stats---- 76 at bats--13 homeruns.
    " In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    One of the most unique players in baseball history.

    No one has ever come close to playing that much with that low a batting average. Two recent players, Todd Hundley and Dave Valle combined had 133 fewer than Kingman

    How is it even possible for someone to have a K/BB ratio of 3-to-1 and still have that much offensive value? That's Hal Lanier level. Forever the ultimate all-or-nothing hitter
    Tom
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As dallas pointed out, Kingman might very well BE in the HOF had he played in Boston, as his production while playing at Wrigley Field indicates.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • TNTonPMSTNTonPMS Posts: 2,279 ✭✭
    He was the only one I enjoyed watching on the Mets , as long as he was up , I would watch .

    Big Dave ! Not an Ice balls chance in hell .
  • TheVonTheVon Posts: 2,725 ✭


    << <i>As dallas pointed out, Kingman might very well BE in the HOF had he played in Boston, as his production while playing at Wrigley Field indicates. >>



    I'm not sure I understand the connection between becoming a HOFer by playing for Boston based on production in Chicago.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,693 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure I understand the connection between becoming a HOFer by playing for Boston based on production in Chicago.

    Both parks were much better suited for Kingman to hit at than the pitcher-friendly Shea Stadium. In Chicago, in almost 3 full seasons, Kingman hit about .275 and as a visiting player, his best games were often vs the Cubs, as I well recall from watching him at that time. If Kingman had played in Boston or Chicago and hit 550 home runs with a career average of .260 instead of .240 would he be in the HOF? Would the voters pereceive him differently? Possibly. For the record, though, I do not think Kingman was close to being a HOF calibre player.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think Frank Howard deserves to be in more than Kingman and that will not likely happen... >>


    No argument. Frank Howard probably should be in the HOF; he is at least very, very close. Howard was to Dave Kingman what Bob Gibson was to Bob Forsch.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If Kingman had played in Boston or Chicago and hit 550 home runs with a career average of .260 instead of .240 would he be in the HOF? Would the voters pereceive him differently? Possibly. For the record, though, I do not think Kingman was close to being a HOF calibre player. >>


    Yes, that's exactly my point. People watch mediocrities like Kingman play in easy parks and convince themselves that they are good players. They watch good players like Jim Rice play in easy parks and convince themselves that they're great players. If Boog Powell could have played on George Sisler's teams 50 years earlier we might be asking "Babe who"?

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    Kingman had less than 1% of the Hall-of-Fame vote -- at that time, all 400-home run hitters had made the Hall-of-Fame pretty easily. Having an extra 700 or so games in Fenway or Wrigley instead of Shea and Candlestick would not have changed much. Mel Ott perhaps gained more homeruns from his home field than any one in history, yet that was over a 2 700 game career, and it was still less than 100 total. Putting Kingman in Boston and Chicago for his entire career, as well as a homefield advantage equal to the largest one in history, he still falls short of 500. And when he really did play his home games in Wrigley his home/road homerun totals were 49 to 45 home-road, essentially unable to take advantage of the winds past age 30

    Rice and Sisler had very good batting averages. In the case of Sisler, record highs; for Rice, often top 10, more importantly high enough to help with those big RBI totals. That is a major thing Hall-of-Fame voters have always looked at, even if incorrect. Dwight Evans was better a better player than Rice, Cy Williams was close to Sisler, both in nearly identical enviornments
    Tom
  • HoopsterHoopster Posts: 1,169
    I will take this opportunity to remind everyone that not only was Jim Rice near the very top in RBI on an annual basis, HE WAS ALSO NEAR OR AT THE VERY TOP IN FAILING TO DRIVE IN RUNS FROM SCORING POSITION on a yearly basis! And that is in the best hitters park in the league!

    If one points to his RBI totals, then one MUST point to his failures in RBI chances.

    There are three reasons why he amassed more RBI than the plethora of better hitters from his time in MLB. 1) He simply had more opportunites with men on base, 2)He played in the best hitters park in the league, and 3)He swung more often, resulting in more RBI, but more outs(and failures of RBI) too.

    This has been a public service announcement.


    Kong playing at Fenway his whole career, and in that lineup, would certainly have artificially raised his perceived ability, and his 'traditional' stats, much like it did for other hitters who actually did have that opportunity.

    I wouldn't base that on a 76 at bat sample size of what he did at Fenway, but on the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of at bats sample size from the YEARS upon YEARS of home/road data of all the Fenway hitters, and all the visiting Fenway hitters(compared to the same thousands of data of all the other parks), that only a an ignorant homer could ignore and proclaim otherwise.

    -Skin
  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    How does everything always come back to Rice?

    Rice was a good hitter. Good on the Moises Alou level, not Alex Rodriguez level. His high failure is as much a product of his enviornment as his high success rate. Put Alou in the Red Sox 70s and 80s lineups and he would have done about as well as Rice. Rodriguez would have done far better, Kingman would have done worse. . .
    Tom
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