Does a dealer's decision not to submit coins to TPGs indicate that the dealer doesn't know coins or

IGWT · March 31, 2008 1:00AM

From a prominent dealer's website:

Look carefully at who you are dealing with. Are they a wannabe? Do they even know coins? That’s the biggest problem today. There are so many dealers who can't grade but will tempt you with a nice web site or fast talk at a show. Just ask your dealer if they get raw coins graded. If they deflect or say no, question them as to why. the answer of no need to is not sufficient.

How sound is this advice? Is asking a "dealer if they get raw coins graded" the best way to distinguish between good dealers and not-so-good dealers? And, for a dealers who choose not to submit, what answer to the question "why" would you accept as an explanation that removes the cloud of suspicion that hangs over them?

CaptHenway · March 31, 2008 1:16AM

There are no givens in this field.
I can sell an AU 1931-S cent without a TPG slab. Totally unnecessary.
I will always slab a 1909-SVDB, because the customer's confidence demands it.
Other coins fall in between. Where is the SLAB/DON'T SLAB line?
TD

ricko · March 31, 2008 1:20AM

Much more information is required... this is but one data point, in no way a basis for a decision. Cheers, RickO

IGWT · March 31, 2008 1:22AM

There are no givens in this field.
I can sell an AU 1931-S cent without a TPG slab. Totally unnecessary.
I will always slab a 1909-SVDB, because the customer's confidence demands it.
Other coins fall in between. Where is the SLAB/DON'T SLAB line?
TD

The "answer of no need to is not sufficient."

Don't confuse me with your fast talk. And I noticed that you have a nice web site.

BlindedByEgo · March 31, 2008 1:24AM

<< There are no givens in this field.
I can sell an AU 1931-S cent without a TPG slab. Totally unnecessary.
I will always slab a 1909-SVDB, because the customer's confidence demands it.
Other coins fall in between. Where is the SLAB/DON'T SLAB line?
TD >>

$421.97 or thereabouts

I don't know whether submissions to TPG's can be considered to be the divining line between wannabee dealers and dealers such as the one with the prominent website.
More important to many would be whether the dealer can grade a coin once it is in plastic; only then (apparently) can he play with the big boys (and girls).

Julian · March 31, 2008 1:31AM

I am a dealer that does not submit very many coins for TPG. Just as soon as the system gets much nearer to perfect, I will submit more coins.

Having been involved in commercial numismatics for over 40 years, I have more experience than most evaluators. I know that I am not perfect, but I do not sell myself that way either. I continue to purchase coins that I feel are underevaluated and just sticker them with the correct grade, IMHO. I am unable to purchase coins that I feel are overevaluated.

Coins are not #'s, they are multi-dimensional. They are subjective and not objective. All of us have seen many coins that are clearly superior in value and desirability to coins that are in higher #'d holders.

I TOTALLY REJECT any broad statement that says don't buy coins from dealers that do not encapsulate coins.

Boom · March 31, 2008 1:44AM

Aside from preservation in a slab, in many situations having coins professionally graded just isn't practical.

JMHO but if a coin is not worth a minimum of $100 it's not worth the expense of professional grading.

CaptHenway · March 31, 2008 1:49AM

I have bought raw coins from Julian with complete confidence.
There are other dealers I would not say this about.
TD

Fairlaneman · March 31, 2008 1:50AM

<< JMHO but if a coin is not worth a minimum of $100 it's not worth the expense of professional grading.

>>

Well if the above is true I can think of two series that should have very very few coins submitted.

As far as the original question it is very reasonable for a dealer not to submit coins if he/she chooses. TPG's are not the final say. Collectors are. If the dealer can gain the collectors trust then why spend money on grading fees?

Ken

Griv · March 31, 2008 2:03AM

Graded coins allow for greater liquidity and preserves value when passed to heirs that have no knowledge of coin values.

Plus, if you get a FIRST STRIKE label it's worth millions more.

IGWT · March 31, 2008 2:05AM

I have bought raw coins from Julian with complete confidence.

I knew that Julian is in the clear. He's exonerated by the lack of a fancy website.

Julian · March 31, 2008 2:25AM

<< I have bought raw coins from Julian with complete confidence.

I knew that Julian is in the clear. He's exonerated by the lack of a fancy website.

>>

Very cute.

PerryHall · March 31, 2008 2:29AM

Based on the tone of the message and the use of the term wannabe to denegrate other coin dealers, I can almost guess who this dealer is.

MrHalfDime · March 31, 2008 2:39AM

"Coins are not #'s, they are multi-dimensional. They are subjective and not objective. All of us have seen many coins that are clearly superior in value and desirability to coins that are in higher #'d holders."

That is one of the more profound comments I have heard regarding coins and grading. I could not agree more.

amiller · March 31, 2008 2:51AM

<< Plus, if you get a FIRST STRIKE label it's worth millions more. >>

Where is this FS coin which demands millions more?

IGWT · March 31, 2008 2:56AM

From the website of another prominent dealer:

Numismatics is a hobby and not a financial tool. I am not a proponent of third party grading, in its current stage of development. The main flaw and the reason that I do not participate in the encapsulation of numismatic items, is that the grading lacks consistency. If third party grading were to gain consistency, I would certainly participate with that program.

What level of consistency would be necessary to justify participation in third-party grading? Can we expect that the TPGs will ever achieve that level? Should we infer that a dealer who submits coins for grading despite the inconsistency lacks either the confidence to grade properly or the trust of an established clientele?

BECOKA · March 31, 2008 3:01AM

<< From the website of another prominent dealer:

Numismatics is a hobby and not a financial tool. I am not a proponent of third party grading, in its current stage of development. The main flaw and the reason that I do not participate in the encapsulation of numismatic items, is that the grading lacks consistency. If third party grading were to gain consistency, I would certainly participate with that program.

What level of consistency would be necessary to justify participation in third-party grading? Can we expect that the TPGs will ever achieve that level? Should we infer that a dealer who submits coins for grading despite the inconsistency lacks either the confidence to grade properly or the trust of an established clientele? >>

When you can take 50 coins that border one grade or the other and send them to 4 of the top TPG's 5 times and get the same grade 4 of the 5 times, I think that would be consistent enough.

As far as trusting a dealer that does not submit, there is a certain price point where it just does not make sense to submit. If it is properly graded and worth a small fortune TPG slabs will add a significant premium and the dealer would be crazy to not have it slabbed.

Unknown · March 31, 2008 3:03AM

This content has been removed.

MrEureka · March 31, 2008 3:05AM

It's hard for me to debate something when I'm not even sure what was said.

tradedollarnut · March 31, 2008 3:13AM

<< It's hard for me to debate something when I'm not even sure what was said. >>

Doesn't stop anyone else around here - get with the program!

Colquhoun · March 31, 2008 3:15AM

<< I am a dealer that does not submit very many coins for TPG. Just as soon as the system gets much nearer to perfect, I will submit more coins.

Having been involved in commercial numismatics for over 40 years, I have more experience than most evaluators. I know that I am not perfect, but I do not sell myself that way either. I continue to purchase coins that I feel are underevaluated and just sticker them with the correct grade, IMHO. I am unable to purchase coins that I feel are overevaluated.

Coins are not #'s, they are multi-dimensional. They are subjective and not objective. All of us have seen many coins that are clearly superior in value and desirability to coins that are in higher #'d holders.

I TOTALLY REJECT any broad statement that says don't buy coins from dealers that do not encapsulate coins. >>

Julian is an example of a dealer, (who I have never have the opurtunity to deal with) that I would not think twice about buying raw from. Some people toss about the word wannabe, and try to talk down others.. and the choices of others.. fact is their are dealers that have earned enough respect to take a stand, and they should be applaused for taking a stand. I agree with many that market graded, the lack of conistiency is a major issue. If you really want to know about the current state of grading in the US, look at websites from dealers outside the US, our grading is making us a luaghing stock.

IGWT · March 31, 2008 3:17AM

-- It's hard for me to debate something when I'm not even sure what was said. --

Do you not understand what I quoted or what I wrote? If it's the former, I'll try to interpret; if it's the latter, I'll try to clarify. Edited to add: Nevermind . . . the official interpreter has joined the thread.

tahoe98 · March 31, 2008 3:18AM

..............................

streeter · March 31, 2008 4:44AM

Submitting coins is a PIA.

A lot of dealers-------at many different levels---------do not need to submit coins to make the sale.

However, many coins need plastic to move them.

If you are selling to strangers----plastic helps.

moonshine · March 31, 2008 4:55AM

I am not a dealer, but feel that just because a dealer does not want to submit coins, does not make them anything but a dealer who does not submit coins. I see nothing wrong with it - if that is what they choose not to do.

Longacre · March 31, 2008 4:59AM

Because of slabs, it's possible for a dealer to be a TERRIBLE grader, and still get by in the marketplace. To me, it is not a mark of a true dealer if that person deals in raw coins or not. That is just one facet of being a dealer, and it is entirely possible to be a good coin dealer without knowing how to grade.

Let's take a legal analogy-- some lawyers are TERRIBLE in a courtroom. However, they can be spectacular lawyers in other facets of being a lawyer. Does that mean that they are horrible lawyers? No. It just means that they don't have a particular skill, but they are quite capable to practice law and provide quality legal services, the same way that a coin dealer can provide quality numismatic counsel, but not know how to grade.

coindeuce · March 31, 2008 5:07AM

IGWT - the initial quote certainly appears to be the usual propaganda originating from a dealer that feels the need to expend energy criticizing others business practices, rather than focusing on just promoting themselves. I ask myself this about the dealer: Which is more important, being a watchdog or being the top dog?

IGWT · March 31, 2008 5:12AM

Because of slabs, it's possible for a dealer to be a TERRIBLE grader, and still get by in the marketplace. To me, it is not a mark of a true dealer if that person deals in raw coins or not. That is just one facet of being a dealer, and it is entirely possible to be a good coin dealer without knowing how to grade.

Let's take a legal analogy-- some lawyers are TERRIBLE in a courtroom. However, they can be spectacular lawyers in other facets of being a lawyer. Does that mean that they are horrible lawyers? No. It just means that they don't have a particular skill, but they are quite capable to practice law and provide quality legal services, the same way that a coin dealer can provide quality numismatic counsel, but not know how to grade.

The ability to grade cuts across all aspects of being a good dealer, just like the ability to reason analytically cuts across all aspects of being a good lawyer. (Apologies to those who think that "good lawyer" is an oxymoron.)

coindeuce · March 31, 2008 5:20AM

Another oxymoron: condition census(senseless?)

SeaEagleCoins · March 31, 2008 5:30AM

I would like to add a little twist to this 'conversation'...

If a collector decides to collect only raw coins in albums (or whatever) and not collect slabbed coins...does this make their collection inferior to a slabbed collection? Does it make the collector "less of a collector" than one who does collect slabbed coins?

After all...we have all acknowledged the inconsistancy in TPG grading...out of all the slabs "out in the field" ...there are those from times of tightening of standards and those from times of loosening of the standards. We know that the same coin can receive anything from different grades to BB's on different days.

There have been "public" tests of pro graders where they were shown coins already in holders with the grades hidden and they rarely assign a grade that matched the one on the holder...

And, as Julian points out...the number on the label DOES NOT define the coin...it is but one part of the definition that helps to lead to placing a value on it...

Having a coin in a holder, regardless of the TPG, does not ensure a superior coin...and having a coin 'raw' does not mean it is inferior...

...and another note...a previous poster to this thread mentioned that many dealers can not differentiate between AT and NT... neither can many collectors... and neither can most professional graders... hence the BB for the reason of "Questionable Color"...which is not an opinion but an admission that they are unable to offer an opinion... ( and frankly...that one really bothers me...to be charged full freight for an opinion and then be told that they are unable to give one...

)

MrEureka · March 31, 2008 5:33AM

The ability to grade cuts across all aspects of being a good dealer

Grading consists of two components. One is the ability to assess the quality of a coin. The other is the ability to map that assessment onto a numeric scale. Only the first of these two components is essential.

For example, I buy lots of Scandinavian coins. I have no idea how to grade to their completely alien-looking scale, but it hasn't slowed me down in the least.

Longacre · March 31, 2008 5:40AM

<< The ability to grade cuts across all aspects of being a good dealer

Grading consists of two components. One is the ability to assess the quality of a coin. The other is the ability to map that assessment onto a numeric scale. Only the first of these two components is essential.

For example, I buy lots of Scandinavian coins. I have no idea how to grade to their completely alien-looking scale, but it hasn't slowed me down in the least. >>

I think I agree with what you're saying. In my opinion, slabs have allowed anyone to become a dealer, and to marginalize the one factor that used to distinguish dealers-- the ability to grade.

Honestly, I am not the greatest grader in the world. However, if I opened by own coin dealership, the last thing that would hold be back is my lack of ability to grade.

PerryHall · March 31, 2008 6:13AM

<< Honestly, I am not the greatest grader in the world. However, if I opened by own coin dealership, the last thing that would hold be back is my lack of ability to grade. >>

As a dealer who lacks the ability to grade well, what would you do if someone brought in a collection of expensive raw coins to sell because he was in immediate need of cash?

MrEureka · March 31, 2008 6:20AM

As a dealer who lacks the ability to grade well, what would you do if someone brought in a collection of expensive raw coins to sell because he was in immediate need of cash?

I'd smile.

Mowgli · March 31, 2008 6:21AM

Does a dealer's decision not to submit coins to TPGs indicate that the dealer doesn't know coins or how to grade?

To me, this indicates that the dealer clearly knows coins and how to grade. In one case he doesn't need TPG input on his coins. In the other case, he doesn't want TPG input on his coins. In both cases he knows the coin and the grade.

It seems like the website dealer is trying to make himself more attractive than those dealers who do not submit coins to TPGs. Since I have bought very nice raw coins from a number of dealers I cannot accept his premise. Once I have a relationship with a dealer I find that they are very honest about their coins - even admitting when 1st fier TPG coins are overgraded. No one gets the grading right all the time.

Cnitas · March 31, 2008 6:23AM

<< 

<< Honestly, I am not the greatest grader in the world. However, if I opened by own coin dealership, the last thing that would hold be back is my lack of ability to grade. >>

As a dealer who lacks the ability to grade well, what would you do if someone brought in a collection of expensive raw coins to sell because he was in immediate need of cash? >>

Thats easy. Offer $575 because half have clearly been cleaned or messed with.

IGWT · March 31, 2008 7:32AM

A dealer who can't grade reminds me of the Bumble without his teeth. Just sayin' . . . . But I don't think it's possible to judge a dealer's ability based on whether or not he chooses to submit coins for grading.

roadrunner · March 31, 2008 7:43AM

It often seems to me that the more a seller talks about how they can grade, the less they really can.

Keep your eye on the ball. The proof is in the results, not necessarily in years of experience, nor in how many collections were built, nor even profits, salutations or testimonials. Surprisingly, good grading often comes down to just one thing.........good grading. Though I do like to deal with people who consistently make their customers money. How many times have we praised a seller over the years only to find out the truth when we went to sell one of our gems and found out the truth?

Just ask anyone who was around in the 1975-1986 era. Everyone could grade (just ask them-lol) and in fact everyone did place their own grade on a coin. It lead to a lot of abuses. Turns out most of them couldn't grade consistently to save their lives. And there was no need to since a gullible public was right there forking over their money to boiler rooms and mere salesmen. How many dealers can grade at the 70-85% accuracy level to be on par with the TPG graders?.....probably not 1 in a 100 nationwide and very, very few B&M shops. I think this is why we have TPG's today, or at least one of the reasons.

roadrunner

bidask · March 31, 2008 7:51AM

it might mean he is trying to sell a coin raw that has altered surfaces

charley · March 31, 2008 8:13AM

I will make the mental leap, that all would agree that Numismatic Commerce for profit is a business model. The individual(s) benefitted by the business will proceed in their best interest to increase profits,as it should. If the business decides it is not profitable to send in coins for grading(regardless if we agree or don't agree with the reason), then this is nothing more or less than a business choice. I don't find logic in concluding that the business is not qualified to grade because it makes such a choice. I do find logic in another business using this lack of action as a tool to "attack" the business and compete for customers. I would use as an example the U.S. Mint. We buy coins from the U.S. Mint at prices greater than the value of the metal used or the face value. Do we ask the U.S. Mint if they submit coins to TPG? If they don't, should we stop buying coins from the U.S. Mint? Do you concur that the U.S. Mint is a business model when it sells numismatic items to a the public? Why do we not ask that the coins be graded and force a "parity" condition in the Numismatic market? Respectfully, and Cognizant That My Thoughts Added Nothing To The Conversation, John Curlis

Cratylus · March 31, 2008 10:16AM

<< I would like to add a little twist to this 'conversation'...

If a collector decides to collect only raw coins in albums (or whatever) and not collect slabbed coins...does this make their collection inferior to a slabbed collection? Does it make the collector "less of a collector" than one who does collect slabbed coins?

After all...we have all acknowledged the inconsistancy in TPG grading...out of all the slabs "out in the field" ...there are those from times of tightening of standards and those from times of loosening of the standards. We know that the same coin can receive anything from different grades to BB's on different days.

There have been "public" tests of pro graders where they were shown coins already in holders with the grades hidden and they rarely assign a grade that matched the one on the holder...

And, as Julian points out...the number on the label DOES NOT define the coin...it is but one part of the definition that helps to lead to placing a value on it...

Having a coin in a holder, regardless of the TPG, does not ensure a superior coin...and having a coin 'raw' does not mean it is inferior...

...and another note...a previous poster to this thread mentioned that many dealers can not differentiate between AT and NT... neither can many collectors... and neither can most professional graders... hence the BB for the reason of "Questionable Color"...which is not an opinion but an admission that they are unable to offer an opinion... ( and frankly...that one really bothers me...to be charged full freight for an opinion and then be told that they are unable to give one...

) >>

You must've been reading my mind!

Aegis3 · March 31, 2008 11:01AM

<< From a prominent dealer's website:

Look carefully at who you are dealing with. Are they a wannabe? Do they even know coins? That’s the biggest problem today. There are so many dealers who can't grade but will tempt you with a nice web site or fast talk at a show. Just ask your dealer if they get raw coins graded. If they deflect or say no, question them as to why. the answer of no need to is not sufficient.

How sound is this advice? Is asking a "dealer if they get raw coins graded" the best way to distinguish between good dealers and not-so-good dealers? And, for a dealers who choose not to submit, what answer to the question "why" would you accept as an explanation that removes the cloud of suspicion that hangs over them? >>

I typically view a "wannabe" as having only slabbed coins for sale and wouldn't even know what to do with a raw coin beyond use in a vending machine. And certainly viewing all coins in a certain grade as being the same price (or at least to start negotiating from, if he so chooses). And probably the most he knows about rarity is from pop reports, which means he known little and what little he "knows" is likely not right.

I once tried to buy an Assay medal (the most common of its decade) from a wannabe. It didn't work out well, seeing as he wanted about 3x what it was worth, because it was the "finest known." Never mind that you can track it to an auction where two of that date/metal were offered and it was not the better of the two (catalog description and my lot viewing notes). Kinda contradicts "finest known." By pop reports, it's probably also the worst known (at best second worst), which means pop reports are completely worthless here.

IGWT · March 31, 2008 11:22AM

I once tried to buy an Assay medal (the most common of its decade) from a wannabe. It didn't work out well, seeing as he wanted about 3x what it was worth, because it was the "finest known." Never mind that you can track it to an auction where two of that date/metal were offered and it was not the better of the two (catalog description and my lot viewing notes). Kinda contradicts "finest known." By pop reports, it's probably also the worst known (at best second worst), which means pop reports are completely worthless here.

I once spotted an AU die variety that the seller claimed was the third (or second, or fourth . . . I can't remember) "finest known." I pointed out that the pop reports were far from the final word, because most collectors of the coins neither respect nor seek TPG attribution in this area. As proof, I sent him pictures of not one, but two examples, in gem condition that don't appear in the census/population reports.

His response in defense of his claim (I kid you not): "In reality, even if higher grade ones are known (by whom is another story), but not attributed, do they REALLY exist? Are they any higher graded ones available for sale right now? Anywhere? I would guess not."

Connecticoin · March 31, 2008 12:30PM

<< From the website of another prominent dealer:

Numismatics is a hobby and not a financial tool. I am not a proponent of third party grading, in its current stage of development. The main flaw and the reason that I do not participate in the encapsulation of numismatic items, is that the grading lacks consistency. If third party grading were to gain consistency, I would certainly participate with that program.

What level of consistency would be necessary to justify participation in third-party grading? Can we expect that the TPGs will ever achieve that level? Should we infer that a dealer who submits coins for grading despite the inconsistency lacks either the confidence to grade properly or the trust of an established clientele? >>

He's saying "I can't grade", or

"my ownership adds a point" AND "you ownership deducts a point"

Does a dealer's decision not to submit coins to TPGs indicate that the dealer doesn't know coins or

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