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Which coins are easiest to counterfeit?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
With the latest wave in new counterfeits, it may be useful to think about which coins are easiest to counterfeit.
Let's consider generalities first, and then see where it leads us.
I'll start.
Coins made using current minting processes and in perfect condition (for collectors) should be the easiest to fake.
High grade classics, especially those with distinctive die flaws and metal flow "issues" should be the most difficult to fake.
Low grade classics are easier to fake, especially when the coins are polished or "environmentally damaged". In these conditions, many of the diagnostic characteristics of the coins are lost or obscured, making authentication more difficult.
Let's consider generalities first, and then see where it leads us.
I'll start.
Coins made using current minting processes and in perfect condition (for collectors) should be the easiest to fake.
High grade classics, especially those with distinctive die flaws and metal flow "issues" should be the most difficult to fake.
Low grade classics are easier to fake, especially when the coins are polished or "environmentally damaged". In these conditions, many of the diagnostic characteristics of the coins are lost or obscured, making authentication more difficult.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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<< <i>With the latest wave in new counterfeits, it may be useful to think about which coins are easiest to counterfeit. Let's consider generalities first, and then see where it leads us. I'll start. Coins made using current minting processes and in perfect condition (for collectors) should be the easiest to fake. High grade classics, especially those with distinctive die flaws and metal flow "issues" should be the most difficult to fake. Low grade classics are easier to fake, especially when the coins are polished or "environmentally damaged". In these conditions, many of the diagnostic characteristics of the coins are lost or obscured, making authentication more difficult. >>
Your logic takes a left turn there for me. At first you are talking about a generation or type of coin (ultramodern with current minting processes) then you go haywire and start talking about abused coins. I think there are two different areas of discussion there.
gold is the easiest to counterfeit.
Clad is a difficult composition to fake and still not easily made.
I've always figured the the ability to detect fakes would stay ahead of their ability
to simulate the real thing.
95-W ASEs would certainly be worth the effort, and shouldn't be difficult to reproduce.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And another point I consider, most of you guys have been doing business for years, do you doubt your skills that much?
I am not trying to be an azz here, its just alot here claim to know it all, yet a little bump in the road like this has all your skirts in a tizzy
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>Considering how crude they are, I would imagine that ancient greek and roman coins would be fairly easy to counterfeit. >>
SOME are quite crude. the high relief versions would be quite a bit harder (although still could be done of course)
<< <i>
<< <i>Considering how crude they are, I would imagine that ancient greek and roman coins would be fairly easy to counterfeit. >>
SOME are quite crude. the high relief versions would be quite a bit harder (although still could be done of course) >>
Indeed. Here are about 4,165 examples to look at:
Fake Ancient Coin Reports
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
However good "we" are and however sloppy the Chinese counterfeiters are, one thing is certain. They will improve their skills faster than most of us will improve ours. In other words, sooner or later most of us are going to have a problem. Better to give it a little more thought now than lose a lot more money later.
Edited so as to not overstate the problem.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>$2 1/2 and $5 Gold Indians. >>
That would be my first thought too.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Explosive Impact Copying.
People should buy and read Charles Larson's new book "Numismatic Forgery".
On p. 80, Larson states"...a forger can make perfect steel dies for any coin, from any coin".
He outlines the fascinating technique used to produce these dies in chapter six.
Caveat emptor!
<< <i> I do not worry about this Andy, as I do not buy anything from china, and I find it funny that so many here do worry. Is there that much board money being spent on ebay china?
However good "we" are and however sloppy the Chinese counterfeiters are, one thing is certain. They will improve their skills faster than most of us will improve ours. In other words, sooner or later most of us are going to have a problem. Better to give it a little more thought now than lose a lot more money later. >>
What I would consider a problem here, would be the people who are not quite as adept thinking just because its in plastic, its the real deal.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i> I do not worry about this Andy, as I do not buy anything from china, and I find it funny that so many here do worry. Is there that much board money being spent on ebay china?
However good "we" are and however sloppy the Chinese counterfeiters are, one thing is certain. They will improve their skills faster than we improve ours. In other words, however good you are, sooner or later you're going to have a problem. Better to give it a little more thought now than lose a lot more money later. >>
......and also, like it or not we ALL (okay, maybe not dorkkarl
<< <i>
<< <i> I do not worry about this Andy, as I do not buy anything from china, and I find it funny that so many here do worry. Is there that much board money being spent on ebay china?
However good "we" are and however sloppy the Chinese counterfeiters are, one thing is certain. They will improve their skills faster than we improve ours. In other words, however good you are, sooner or later you're going to have a problem. Better to give it a little more thought now than lose a lot more money later. >>
......and also, like it or not we ALL (okay, maybe not dorkkarl
hence buy the coin, not the plastic.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Book review
And saw this quote...
"Larson quotes an anonymous authenticator who examined 114 1916-S quarter eagles during the 1980s. 56% of them turned out to be fake!"
Is this some sort of quarter eagle I am not aware of? I would assume that the percentage would be 100% fake on this one. Must be a mispring. (misprint)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I do not worry about this Andy, as I do not buy anything from china, and I find it funny that so many here do worry. Is there that much board money being spent on ebay china?
However good "we" are and however sloppy the Chinese counterfeiters are, one thing is certain. They will improve their skills faster than we improve ours. In other words, however good you are, sooner or later you're going to have a problem. Better to give it a little more thought now than lose a lot more money later. >>
......and also, like it or not we ALL (okay, maybe not dorkkarl
hence buy the coin, not the plastic. >>
YES, but.......the vast majority of coin collectors out there are much more casual than we are here on the PCGS and NGC forums. They buy a few slabbed coins here, and few there. Many don't know how to grade their series real well, and may not be too adept at picking out counterfeits (or counterfeit slabs!). There is a reason that there are MILLIONS of slabbed common date, low MS Morgans, Peace, Walkers, etc. out there. It feeds collectors that are more casual. This may be a market that that the counterfeiters go after, flood the market with lower priced fake MS coins. These collectors get burned a time or two, word gets out, and you're left with higher end collectors and a much smaller hobby. The TPGs can't survive off of grading and re-grading rare coins. They need the tons of bullion and common date Morgan type coins flooding in. Reduce this greatly, and it hurts all of us.
Also, we know for a fact that members of both the PCGS and NGC forums have been contacting the counterfeiters to try to find out their ideas and in turn, let us know what to look for. THey have stated that one of their goals is REAL coins in FAKE slabs. Take a "widget" MS64 Peace at $30 street value, put it into a fake PCGS/NGC slab, and *presto!*, you've got a $125-500 coin. This will slip under the radar much easier than fake coins in fake slabs, as we all know that there are overgraded "dogs" in all brands of holders and they may be traded without red flags going off.
<< <i>So, I was browsing this site...
Book review
And saw this quote...
"Larson quotes an anonymous authenticator who examined 114 1916-S quarter eagles during the 1980s. 56% of them turned out to be fake!"
Is this some sort of quarter eagle I am not aware of? I would assume that the percentage would be 100% fake on this one. Must be a mispring. (misprint) >>
I think that he meant 1911-D quarter eagles which have been heavily counterfeited.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm sure he meant half eagles, not quarter eagles. There are a lot of fake 16-S half eagles out there.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I recently had a debate with someone over which of two coins was the real thing and which was the cast copy. In retrospect, I realize that both of us had solid points, which means that most likely both are fakes.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
A cast Brasher Doubloon handed to me by the owner who paid 6 figures RAW!
It was around ANA 2000 (Pre Digital).... I just found 35MM pics I took which I posted a of scan below.
Looking at the notes in my file the counterfeit weighed 384.6 grains on my scale.
<< <i>Larson quotes an anonymous authenticator who examined 114 1916-S quarter eagles during the 1980s. 56% of them turned out to be fake!
I'm sure he meant half eagles, not quarter eagles. There are a lot of fake 16-S half eagles out there. >>
All dates of the Indian $2 1/2 and $5 gold coins have been heavily counterfeited. There was a whole series of S mint counterfeit Indian $5's of various dates using a common reverse die where the S mintmark looks like a worm rather than the proper squared off S letter with serifs. In any event, one should be very cautious buying coins from these series.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Which coins are easiest to counterfeit? >>
real ones
K S
<< <i>In keeping up with the latest ways to make counterfeit coins, all one has to understand is three simple words -
Explosive Impact Copying.
People should buy and read Charles Larson's new book "Numismatic Forgery".
On p. 80, Larson states"...a forger can make perfect steel dies for any coin, from any coin".
He outlines the fascinating technique used to produce these dies in chapter six.
Caveat emptor! >>
If, indeed, the 1959-D wheatback cents were made this way (I have seen two of them), it is an effective way of making a die. However, I am not convinced that the dies were made this way. (Maybe they were, maybe they wern't.)
There are better ways of making a counterfeit die that do not risk damaging the host coin. Damage wouldn't matter on a 1959-D made from two different common coins, but the recent 1795 DB dollars were copied from a very high grade genuine coin.
TD
<< <i>these could be counterfieted easily...no special tooling required.
Yes, but it's hard tp get that "woodgrain" pattern correct in Indiana Limestone......