fake American Eagle gold bullion now in fake PCGS slabs
Doogy
Posts: 4,508 ✭
I was on a video conference call with a colleague yesterday, when he brought us his newest purchase. He was in China visiting one of our vendors and found a shop selling these coins. They had tons of them, all slabbed, and the one ounce gold size was $50 US. Being a coin collector too, he indulged his urge to check it out. He had the 1996 full ounce coin, "graded" MS70. The slab was quite convincing, and the coin was really close; he even held it next to the real deal (although of a different year) for comparison. I'm not saying these are "Omega" man quality dies, but quite close enough for investors, most all newbies and the general public. It also appeared to be quite well struck and almost deserving of the MS70 grade with very little to no visible imperfections with the naked eye.
Obviously, I have no way of knowing if the same counterfeiting factory we saw pictures of the other day is making these on better quality dies, or if they are subcontracting the work out; either way, the quality if much better than the other stuff he saw in fake PCGS slabs. NCLT collectors keep your eyes out and the your fake detectors (brain) tuned up!
Obviously, I have no way of knowing if the same counterfeiting factory we saw pictures of the other day is making these on better quality dies, or if they are subcontracting the work out; either way, the quality if much better than the other stuff he saw in fake PCGS slabs. NCLT collectors keep your eyes out and the your fake detectors (brain) tuned up!
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stocking up on fake goods, tasty rats, copied software, lead painted
toys, etc...
have to make a buck somehow and they learned from the best. us.
we used to do the same exact things in our early days. copying books
from england is one that jumps to mind. we never paid royalties.
just copied it and sold it.
<< <i>I would say this would be a serious problem for many people... and if it were in MS69 trading as just bullion value would be far worse...what did they want to charge your friend in China for the piece? >>
It's an even bigger problem if the coin is counterfeit and made of a metal that is not gold or is gold-plated (which I suspect is the case here).
Note to self: No more PCGS slabs from sellers based in China.
Since MS69 bullion Gold such as this date has nearly no premium to a raw Eagle - why are these guys even bothering with the "PCGS angle"? If the coins look that good, why aren't they simply trying to sell them as raw bullion into the raw market? Or, perhaps they are trying that as well?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Since MS69 bullion Gold such as this date has nearly no premium to a raw Eagle - why are these guys even bothering with the "PCGS angle"? If the coins look that good, why aren't they simply trying to sell them as raw bullion into the raw market? Or, perhaps they are trying that as well? >>
Perhaps but what trozau said is worth considering.
<< <i>It may now be even better to buy raw coins since you can check their weight easier. >>
Uncertified gold is almost always weighed. At least with some old school counterfeits, you'd still get real gold.
It won’t take much more before other countries begin prohibiting certain Chinese imports. Then the Communist government will have to put an end to the broad spectrum of Chinese-made fakes, or risk losing more important markets.
<< <i>Interesting story. Of course, even our US Mint was unable to produce very many "perfect" 1996 $50 Gold Eagles (what - one coin has surfaced at PCGS in 10+ years?), so I am not sure the coins could actually "measure up" to MS70 staus if carefully reviewed. However, as Jon mentioned, the concern might be even more serious for MS69 candidates - but, then this question...
Since MS69 bullion Gold such as this date has nearly no premium to a raw Eagle - why are these guys even bothering with the "PCGS angle"? If the coins look that good, why aren't they simply trying to sell them as raw bullion into the raw market? Or, perhaps they are trying that as well?
Wondercoin >>
certainly good points. Lemme' clarify something a bit. My friend and colleague is an avid coin collector, but like me, his specialty is not these NCLT coins. Obviously, the people like yourself can look at these, and in probably less than a minute, find enough to keep it out of the fabled '70' grade. However, many investors/collectors cannot. I think these will be close enough to fool a lot of people. That is also why i brought up the fact that maybe these guys are now using a private mint to do their dirty work, hence the much improved quality.
As far as the raw question goes, i'd hazard a guess to say that they are onto this as well; although if they haven't quite gotten the weight thing EXACTLY right, the coins in fake PCGS slabs help to alleviate this a bit as it throws off the total weight and people will ASSUME it is a real coin in a real slab.
<< <i>The point for the Chinese crooks is not about "MS70 or MS69" or anything else associated with grading. It is about turning lead into gold via a fake slab of authenticity. >>
BINGO! the "fools gold" of the 19th century now has it's contemporary counterpart (and you can use that line in one of your books if you wish; i don't often come up with witty lines
Wondercoin
<< <i>he paid 50 bucks US for it >>
I thought this friend was an avid collector? Doesn't an avid collector know you do not get one ounce of gold for $50?
<< <i>
<< <i>I would say this would be a serious problem for many people... and if it were in MS69 trading as just bullion value would be far worse...what did they want to charge your friend in China for the piece? >>
It's an even bigger problem if the coin is counterfeit and made of a metal that is not gold or is gold-plated (which I suspect is the case here).
Note to self: No more PCGS slabs from sellers based in China.
The problem is that they are from China now. It won't take long for them to be bought in quanity by dishonest US sellers and then the fun begins.
(maybe end up at one of the Long Beach shows shortly after unloading).
And so it begins.........Phase II of the Third Party Grading story.............
Since you can't verify density in a plastic slab, is the crackout rush beginning?
I knew it would happen.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>One other thing the slab does is better disguise the density differences between true gold and the fake metals being used. Harder to notice in a slab I would think.
You could also make the fake coin slightly thicker so total weight of slab and coin would be correct.
Wondercoin >>
<< <i>
<< <i>he paid 50 bucks US for it >>
I thought this friend was an avid collector? Doesn't an avid collector know you do not get one ounce of gold for $50? >>
Of course he knew it was fake, as well as all of the 200 or so other PCGS fake coins/slabs in the store. He bought it out of curiousity, and because it wasn't too much money. Kinda' like the folks that were scouring around looking to pay melt value and above for the now infamous Omega Saints.
<< <i>Can you imagine if you were a LIGIT Chinese coin collector? It must just be insane. Is this just relegated to U.S. coins or are they faking other countries numismatic material?
Later, Paul. >>
The Chinese have been faking coins and currency FAR longer than the US has even been a country. Faking US coins is relatively new compared to the hundreds of years that they have been faking coins/currency from Britian, Germany (and others) and their own coins.
<< <i>I think the real problem here is the "sight unseen" buyers when they are certified by a reputable service (or you think it is). I think nothing should be bought as the sight unseen basis even though I never did anyway but know some people that do . And when they go to sell who do you think they will sell to, you guessed it another US buyer >>
like the CCE that our host here owns? i wonder how this will play out in their sight unseen market they have created with "market makers"
If a hundred dollar bill gets made.....that's a hundred down the drain if it's passed off. When a 1oz gold eagle gets passed off.....that's $1000.
Counterfeit coins are being brought into coin shops in LA by the boatloads right now. They are being sold on street corners , flea markets etc.
The only way to inhibit the crime is to drop the hammer hard.
<< <i>The point for the Chinese crooks is not about "MS70 or MS69" or anything else associated with grading. It is about turning lead into gold via a fake slab of authenticity. >>
So the East beat the west to the long sought goal of Alchemy?
And if it is, why doesn't the Treasury Dept. crack down on this? Trade with China is worth all this? (besides the lead paint and bad blood products, I mean).
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>he paid 50 bucks US for it, so i'd have to guess it was not gold; probably pot metal gold plated. IF the plating is gold, the application and host coin is nearly flawless in its surfaces, according to him. >>
The selling price suggests that there may be no illegal activity insofar as the local law enforcement in China is concerned. The coins are obviously being sold as something other than the genuine article. Remember there is no Hobby Protection Act in China requiring "copy" be inscribed on a replica coin. Same as buying a fake Rolex abroad. Rarely is it touted as genuine, but more a novelty item. Now the guy who buys it and then tries to pass it off as genuine back here in the States has a different problem. On some higher level via treaty or trade agreement what is not considered illegal by the local law enforecement is also another matter.
A little die polish, die cracks, a tiny copper alloy spot, slight weaknesses in strike, are all good for the soul. Go classics.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>The point for the Chinese crooks is not about "MS70 or MS69" or anything else associated with grading. It is about turning lead into gold via a fake slab of authenticity. >>
So the East beat the west to the long sought goal of Alchemy? >>
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
O' and a big
<< <i>Interesting story. Of course, even our US Mint was unable to produce very many "perfect" 1996 $50 Gold Eagles (what - one coin has surfaced at PCGS in 10+ years?), so I am not sure the coins could actually "measure up" to MS70 staus if carefully reviewed. However, as Jon mentioned, the concern might be even more serious for MS69 candidates - but, then this question...
Since MS69 bullion Gold such as this date has nearly no premium to a raw Eagle - why are these guys even bothering with the "PCGS angle"? If the coins look that good, why aren't they simply trying to sell them as raw bullion into the raw market? Or, perhaps they are trying that as well?
Wondercoin >>
Out of the slab they would be subject to a weight, thickness and diameter test. I doubt if a seller would allow a buyer to remove it from the slab for a test.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Edited to add: Nice gold coinage GRIV
jim
So this proves the Chinese really love our worthless Federal Reserve Notes......they can't get enough of them.
At least we now know we do not have to worry about them wanting a tangible asset for their cash, or if they do, we could sell these fakes back to them and probably come out ahead!!