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Trade Dollar Info - Part 2 - 76-CC DDR

keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
Second in the series......in Part 1, I mentioned that at one time I came across a couple of counterfeit 1876-CC DDR's. I thought that this would be an appropriate follow-up topic.

PCGS currently recognizes two varieties within the series (not including the 1875-S/CC which is part of a basic collection); the 1876-CC DDR and an incredibly elusive 1876-S DDO. Most folks that collect Trade Dollar varieties aspire to obtain a nice example of this magnificently Double Die coin. It is not that difficult to obtain an example although at AU and higher it is quite scarce. I have read that some consider this to be one of the most significantly doubling on any coin in any series. At any point in time, there are usually one or two listed raw on eBay. So how do you tell if it's real? This is what I look for:

1) Broken serifs in the top of the E's in "UNITED STATES"
2) Doubling in E PLURIBUS
3) A "whisker" below the eagles chin
4) A doubled row of feathers in the right wingspan as you look at the coin
5) Significant doubling in the vine, talons and bottom wing tip
6) Doubling of the GR in "GRAINS"

I have seen counterfeits with all of the above except 2, 4 and 6 above. In particular, the doubled row of feathers is apparently very hard to copy. I's confident that some of the cast counterfeits that I've seen were based on an original 76-CC DDR. Most have had the distinctive "whisker".

Here are a couple of pictures to help.

keoj

image


image


image


image

Comments

  • shhhhhh, don't tell people about these! image

    There one of those varieties that command a strong premium that a lot of people don't know about.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>shhhhhh, don't tell people about these! image

    There one of those varieties that command a strong premium that a lot of people don't know about. >>



    It shouldn't - in the context of 76CC trade dollars, they're really very common!

    Edited to add: check this out - they're even priced lower that the non variety in MS62 and 63! imagePCGS Price Guide
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    I have pretty good images of one the more deceptive '76-CC DDR so I'll post them here. The following two coins are different coins...but have several areas of identical die markers that ultimately caused them to be declared counterfeit. Please note that the 'doubled row of feathers on the right' is absent on this coin despite the otherwise excellent detail. Notice even the 'whisker' below the eagles chin is present and is very sharp and crisp.

    imageimage

    The first coin I will post with a larger image so you can study the areas of difference noted by Keoj. One of the most significant die markers of this counterfeit is the series of 3 dashes or 'hits' on the coin that are directly to the left of the eagles head and that angle downward slightly. If you will look at the 2nd counterfeit coin I imaged above, you can see the same set of marks in the same location. There are others, but these are usually observable at arms length and are of the 'no brainer' type which I appreciate.

    image

    And finally, a monster blow up of a genuine coin.

    image

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The CC is incorrect as well.
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    Although population reports don't always tell an accurate story, the '76-CC is about twice as rare as the other Redbook variety, the '75-S/CC. It's been awhile since I checked by at last look, NGC and PCGS had graded about twice as many of the '75-S/CC as the '76-CC DDR. Doesn't always mean much, but my anecdotal experience is that the '76-CC DDR is indeed more difficult to locate in trouble free condition than the '75-S/CC. IMO the '76-CC DDR is a good value at its current prices based on its relative scarcity and the fact that it is an 'arms length' variety. You don't need no loupe to see this doubling!

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    There are some really ugly and bad counterfeits for this date too. The following image is from a 1878-CC Trade Dollar that sold raw on EBAY. I found the image interesting for two reasons. First, it is obviously a poor counterfeit effort at the '76-CC DDR reverse. There is no other coin in the series that has this doubling so the '78-CC was clearly a counterfeit. The second point of interest, however, is that this coin did have the 2nd row of feathers doubling on the right as the genuine coin should have. Fortunately, it was otherwise such a bad effort that the doubled feathers did not make it very deceptive.

    image

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    Very interesting technical information on coins i intend to collect.

    I've noticed a giant difference in the mouth and tounge areas - is
    that something to look at too?
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Although population reports don't always tell an accurate story, the '76-CC is about twice as rare as the other Redbook variety, the '75-S/CC. It's been awhile since I checked by at last look, NGC and PCGS had graded about twice as many of the '75-S/CC as the '76-CC DDR. Doesn't always mean much, but my anecdotal experience is that the '76-CC DDR is indeed more difficult to locate in trouble free condition than the '75-S/CC. IMO the '76-CC DDR is a good value at its current prices based on its relative scarcity and the fact that it is an 'arms length' variety. You don't need no loupe to see this doubling! >>



    Greg......when did these counterfeit 1876-CC DDR coins first appear?
    Can they be traced back to China?
    Is it possible that they are from some other "shop" that the Chinese counterfeiting shop that is selling counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs?
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    I don't know when they 'first' appeared, but I first became aware of them 2-3 years ago. I bought one raw believing it to be genuine and shipped it to NCS because it had milky spots on it. NCS slabbed it as genuine but called it improperly cleaned....so they believed it was genuine at that point also. Within a year, a former grader managed to get several examples of the coins together and did an article declaring them counterfeits. I forget the authors name, but his article was copywrited, and I paid for the article and still have it somewhere at my Florida home. When I get home from my turkey trip, I will try to find it and post the authors name and contact information so that anyone else who needs the article can order it.

    I have no idea where the coins were made or who may have a stash of them. All I know is that all of the grading services are aware of them, and none of them are slabbing these obvious fakes at this point. So putting them in a fake slab is somewhat ironic. A counterfeit coin in a counterfeit slab!!!image

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • bstat1020bstat1020 Posts: 2,151 ✭✭
    I would like to see pictures of a turkey when you shoot one! I have two tags here in IL. Coming up next weekend! They are already out struting!

    Brian
  • RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328
    Here's a little $1,000++ number:

    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't know when they 'first' appeared, but I first became aware of them 2-3 years ago. I bought one raw believing it to be genuine and shipped it to NCS because it had milky spots on it. NCS slabbed it as genuine but called it improperly cleaned....so they believed it was genuine at that point also. Within a year, a former grader managed to get several examples of the coins together and did an article declaring them counterfeits. I forget the authors name, but his article was copywrited, and I paid for the article and still have it somewhere at my Florida home. When I get home from my turkey trip, I will try to find it and post the authors name and contact information so that anyone else who needs the article can order it.

    I have no idea where the coins were made or who may have a stash of them. All I know is that all of the grading services are aware of them, and none of them are slabbing these obvious fakes at this point. So putting them in a fake slab is somewhat ironic. A counterfeit coin in a counterfeit slab!!!image >>



    Yes, please post the info on the article when you can.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭
    This is the kind of thread that make this a great place to call home. image

    Great info,

    Thanks.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very informative..... thanks, Cheers, RickO
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    Yes, please post the info on the article when you can.

    This variety within the series was recently the focus of a thread where a counterfeit coin had been placed in a counterfeit PCGS slab.. As part of my reply, I noted in this thread that the counterfeit coin in the PCGS slab was EASILY identifiable as a counterfeit if you just knew the markers for the obvious counterfeit. These markers were set out in a June 2005 article by Leroy Van Allen. I did not have the details of the article at the time since I was on vacation, but as promised, I am providing them now that I am home.

    In a copywrited article of June 2005 Leroy Van Allen wrote a 6 page piece with 35 photo illustrations discussing the 1876-CC Trade Dollar Doubled Die Reverse Counterfeit. The counterfeit in the thread discussing the fake PCGS slab, is the same type of counterfeit discussed in Mr. Van Allen's article. Anyone interested enough in this series or this variety should procure a copy of this article from Mr. Van Allen. Once learned, the diagnostics of the counterfeit are so easy and readily observable, that you can tell the counterfeit from arms length without ever putting a loupe to the coin!

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • DDRDDR Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In answer to CaptHenway's question about when they first appeared, I purchased a counterfeit 76-CC DDR in 2000 or 2001. This was prior to the explosion of Trade dollar counterfeits from China. I bought it from a U.S. dealer who had it listed as a regular 76-CC. I thought I had made a score, but the longer I looked at the coin, the more suspicious I became. Something just didn't look right even though all the diagnotics were correct. I sent it to ANACS for authentication and sure enough it came back as a cast counterfeit. But as I said, this was prior to all the Chinese counterfeits appearing on the market.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you, gentlemen.
    Looking at the excellent pictures above, I am perplexed at how, and why, the doubled feathers in the interior of the wings were cleaned up and removed on the better of the two counterfeits. Look at the (viewer's right) wing!
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm quite serious. How, and WHY, were the feathers in the wing changed???????
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    CaptHenway,

    Great question but I have no answer. In the poorly cast example, the feathers are doubled. In the "good" counterfeit, no doubled feathers and as you pointed out, what would that happen? The only possible theory that I can guess is that if the "good" counterfeit was made from a casting or base imprint, then perhaps the imprint missed this detail or it was corrrected during the process of making the master?

    Great question.

    keoj
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>CaptHenway,

    Great question but I have no answer. In the poorly cast example, the feathers are doubled. In the "good" counterfeit, no doubled feathers and as you pointed out, what would that happen? The only possible theory that I can guess is that if the "good" counterfeit was made from a casting or base imprint, then perhaps the imprint missed this detail or it was corrrected during the process of making the master?

    Great question.

    keoj >>



    This piece is driving me crazy. The doubling that is present is very sharply detailed, indicating a first generation copy from a genuine coin. However, the eagle looks like it was copied from a different coin.
    Could the counterfeiters have some sort of laser die cutting technology that would allow them to "photoshop" design elements from various coins onto one die? Perhaps they had a genuine doubled die piece, not appreciating the significance of the die variety, and didn't like the muddled look of the eagle, so they replaced it with the image from another coin? The only problem with this theory is that this particular counterfeit came out several years ago, and there is no reason to believe that technology available then would not have been used over and over since then.
    FWIW, there are 1795, 1796 and 1797 dollars out there from counterfeit dies that are all generated from a 1795 coin, with the 6 and the 7 perfectly copied from the 9 and the 7 of the 1795 coin.
    Comments?
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hello, I'm new here and just posted this reply on the thread regarding the fake pcgs slab:

    Hello, I'm new to this board, but I'm a moderator on the Coin Forgery Ebay group and find this a fascinating thread, extremely well executed with terrific photos. My "specialty" on the CFe is trade dollars (but I do not consider myself an expert) because I spend a lot of time ferreting them out for reporting them. I see on the images posted here of the fakes what I believe is a forger's mark-- on the O of OF there are 2 little curlicue marks, one on each side. Most of the fakes we see nowdays are transfer die copies, which can usually be outed by problems in the process, such as pits in the dentils, bits of raised metal on the fields or numbers, or device "issues" such as the defect on Liberty's foot already mentioned. I'll be stopping in to check the threads here more often, lots of good stuff. Keep up the good work! Charles

    Not being an expert on the making of dies, I think that the forgers had a problem of some sort with the die and recut the area inside the eagle's wing, thus losing the doubling.
    Another thing I'll mention: We have been seeing fake coins inserted in NCS slabs on ebay (seller: coinfanxzy). The slabs themselves look good, leading us to speculate that someone bought an original NCS slabbed coin, carefully removed it, inserted a forgery into the slab, and sent the genuine coin back to NCS for re-slabbing! Some of you seem very adept at spotting fake slabs, I'd be interested in what you think.
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    kaz,

    For what it's worth, the first Trade Dollar Info thread was a more generalized treatment of fake Trade Dollars.

    Part I

    keoj
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks, that is an excellent thread you have started. Learned a lot already.
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    kaz,

    No problem, happy to help. I don't mean to presume for others, but if you ever have a question regarding real or fake, please feel free to PM me, tradedollarnut or others to help build a consensus. Ninety-eight percent of the time, fakes are pretty easy (usually limited by the photo of the coin), the last 2 % can be tricky and it seems that some of the fakes are getting better...especially the ones in holders.

    keoj
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please include me in that group you can PM for an opinion on a listing.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt one last time
    Just spoke with an authenticator at one of the services, and he said that they have seen at least one other Trade Dollar with the feathers totally re-engraved on the die.
    Still anxious to hear theories as to how and why.
    D
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shortly before I discovered this forum, I spotted this one on Ebay and it looked nice so I BIN: 110244738127
    Needless to say, I was sweating bullets after reading the posts so when the coin arrived today I was all over it with an ophthalmoscope at +40. (mop brow). I'm sure it's genuine now, meets all the criteria for "real" and none of the criteria for "fake."(after comparing with some of my own 'hard knocks' specimens of cc trades from ebay which comprise my small 'black cabinet."). If I can learn how to photograph coins I'll post some pix.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    nice pick up on your 1876 cc KAZ, It's a xf DDO type 1/1 that dosen't look cleaned. If it makes it in a slab you should double your money.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks, it has a few hairlines but doesn't look scrubbed. I think I'll keep it. There is a lot of subtle doubled stuff all over the reverse, makes for some interesting study.
  • pb2ypb2y Posts: 1,461
    keoj
    Thank you for the information.
    image

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt for the counterfeit variety discussion
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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