Knit Picking Carl Crawford's Career Thread
Goot
Posts: 3,496
in Sports Talk
I never said Carl Crawford is easily the most under rated player in baseball. He's my second favorite player and no one really mentions the fact that he puts up great numbers since he plays in St. Petersburg, FL so I figured I would throw him out for consideration.
All anyone ever did in this thread (other than bigfische) was talk badly about Crawford instead and that's not what I wanted this thread to be. I can take the heat of people not agreeing with me that he's underrated but constantly going after it and knit picking EVERY stat got annoying. I wanted this thread to be filled with a bunch of no name guys that have put up some nice stats but it instead turned into a mutiny of posters ganging up on every comment I made and I got tired of having to respond when nothing that I say or you guys say will probably change anyone's opinion.
I said numerous times that Crawford is nowhere near Clemente but his stats compared favorably to him through this part of their careers. If you thought differently, you need to get your eyes checked.
I also never compared the overall careers of "Henderson and CC either. I only brought up Henderson when shotputman said singles and stolen bases are overrated.
There's stuff I'd rather be doing than argue over my favorite player with a bunch of middle aged men over the computer. Do what you gotta do guys but I'm pretty much done with this crap.
All anyone ever did in this thread (other than bigfische) was talk badly about Crawford instead and that's not what I wanted this thread to be. I can take the heat of people not agreeing with me that he's underrated but constantly going after it and knit picking EVERY stat got annoying. I wanted this thread to be filled with a bunch of no name guys that have put up some nice stats but it instead turned into a mutiny of posters ganging up on every comment I made and I got tired of having to respond when nothing that I say or you guys say will probably change anyone's opinion.
I said numerous times that Crawford is nowhere near Clemente but his stats compared favorably to him through this part of their careers. If you thought differently, you need to get your eyes checked.
I also never compared the overall careers of "Henderson and CC either. I only brought up Henderson when shotputman said singles and stolen bases are overrated.
There's stuff I'd rather be doing than argue over my favorite player with a bunch of middle aged men over the computer. Do what you gotta do guys but I'm pretty much done with this crap.
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<< <i>Eric Byrnes.... he had just as many SB's as Crawford and double the HR's >>
That was one season and he's 31 years old. Crawford has 170 more hits than him for the career and in 5 less years and Byrnes CAREER number of stolen bases before last year barely equal a Crawford season....
Edit: I agree that he is very underrated though, just didn't like the reference to Crawford. >>
I didnt know you were talking "CAREER" I thought you meant right now to start the season, believe me I dont downplay Crawfords ability but in terms of production LAST YEAR and where guys in my Fantasy league drafted Crawford ( 2nd ) compared to Byrnes ( 9th ) looking at last years #'s I think he gets overlooked thats all.
<< <i>I'll throw out another Florida Boy as well. Hanley Ramirez. Almost won the batting title last year while hitting 29 HRs and stealing 50+ bases and he's only 23 or so. Gonna be a STUD for years to come. >>
HOPEFULLY he will be a STUD this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I drafted him at # 6 as my first overall pick!!
LETS GO HANLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Generally lots of walks, good defense (especially true for slow players), changing teams frequently (especially among non-contendors), are the sort of things that lead people to underrate players the most. Orlando Hudson comes close, but he won some Gold Gloves which help keep him rated decently
Mark Ellis would be another possibility
Another thing that is often the most underrated is the ability to play multiple positions very well. Before last year Ryan Freel had three straight seasons playing at least 10 games at five different positions with great defensive stats at each position along with above average offense. Yet no one seemed to notice and no one seems to realize how helpful that is to a team over 162 game seasons. Though he was injured last year and struggled at the plate when healthy
Finding the most overrated players requires a little less searching, high average, milestones such as .300 or 40 homeruns, few walks, poor defense, playing for playoff teams
<< <i>Eric Byrnes.... he had just as many SB's as Crawford and double the HR's >>
Recieved MVP votes on nearly half of all ballots. I would say that is being rated pretty highly
Lou
Henderson was in the top 10 in walks 16 times, top 10 in singles three times. And he was a much better defensive player than Crawford. . .
Again, to me, lack of national television reference is more going unnoticed, than underrated. Rollins was never mentioned much on national TV until after July of last year and sine 2003 they seem to have been equally talented and equally important to their teams
I like the Clemente comparison. When you factor in obp, David Justice was better than both, through five years. When you consider obp and defense, Kenny Lofton was even better
You can look through all of their wins and you will not be able to find 20 examples where the team would have lost if they had an average leftfielder. Though you may find some games this one where he went 0-4 in a one run loss
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<< <i>Matt Diaz! >>
I'm right there with you. If you think about it, he's also part of the reason Chipper is still playing. Chip wouldn't have survived any more time out in LF so for that, I will be forever greatful to Matt Diaz. Plus he was kind enough to stop and chat and sign my 8x10 of him the other day which means MAJOR brownie points with the Gootist.
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<< <i>Matt Diaz! >>
I'm right there with you. If you think about it, he's also part of the reason Chipper is still playing. Chip wouldn't have survived any more time out in LF so for that, I will be forever greatful to Matt Diaz. Plus he was kind enough to stop and chat and sign my 8x10 of him the other day which means MAJOR brownie points with the Gootist.
He is so underrated, even bobby is just now giving him his first shot at solo left field duty. If he hits .300-.330 with a full seasons worth of at bats, he might get some attention.
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<< <i>Matt Diaz! >>
He is so underrated, even bobby is just now giving him his first shot at solo left field duty. If he hits .300-.330 with a full seasons worth of at bats, he might get some attention. >>
Definitely. He hit something like .340 last year if I'm not mistaken. I'm not so sure he'll be able to put together a full season of that (Chipper can barely do it anymore) but if he can hang within 10 points of .300 with a decent OBP and a little power, I'll be VERY happy.
Just think, it'll only be a few years before it goes something like this:
LF-Heyward, CF-Schafer, RF- Frenchy (the seasoned vet!)
3B-um, Jon Gilmore? SS-Yunel, 2B- K. Johnson, 1B- Tex (if he resigns) and McCann at Catcher
Is that even the Atlanta Braves?
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<< <i>Carl Crawford gets to hit against some truly pathetic major league pitching, he is good, but still needs to take it to the next level. >>
ah, isnt crawford in Boston's division? You calling your own pitching crappy?
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<< <i>Carl Crawford gets to hit against some truly pathetic major league pitching, he is good, but still needs to take it to the next level. >>
ah, isnt crawford in Boston's division? You calling your own pitching crappy? >>
Actually Leo is a Tribe fan. That being said, I think he meens Toronto, Baltimore and NY.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Carl Crawford gets to hit against some truly pathetic major league pitching, he is good, but still needs to take it to the next level. >>
ah, isnt crawford in Boston's division? You calling your own pitching crappy? >>
Actually Leo is a Tribe fan. That being said, I think he meens Toronto, Baltimore and NY.
Makes a little more sense now. Not sure why i thought he was a Bosox fan.
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<< <i>Every player that puts on a 'Stros uniform.
<< <i>
<< <i>Carl Crawford gets to hit against some truly pathetic major league pitching, he is good, but still needs to take it to the next level. >>
I was going to freak out at you guys, but you aren't worth my time. I've finally come to realize what a bunch of idiots most of you are. I start a thread asking what players you think are underrated and you all respond with nothing but how stupid my pick is. This is not a baseball debate like I thought it would be, this is a bunch of guys pulling ridiculous comments out of their a** with little to back it up. If you want to criticize me, how about you select a player and provide us with stats rather than just bashing me, because that's not not what I created this topic for.
2007 AL Pitching ranks....
AL East
Boston-1
Toronto-2
NYY- 8
Baltimore-13
AL Central
Min-4 (no Santana anymore)
Kansas City- 7
Detroit- 9
White Sox-12
Not quite sure how pitching in the AL East is supposedly so horrible that Crawford's numbers are skewed to show that he's better than he really is. Not saying the East is better than the Central (this year I think from top to bottom it is though) but I can't see how saying that he faced "crappy pitching" proves anything. Does every single HR that A-Rod hit against the Rays last year get thrown out because they had the worst pitching staff in baseball? I guess we're going to have to start weighting hits and extra points will be awarded if you hit it off of a guy with a WHIP of 1.1 vs. a guy with a WHIP of 1.8..... >>
WOW!!!!!!!
Lighten up Francis!
Currently Crawford is 3.1 Batter Runs above the average player for his career. That isn't very good either.
Comparing him to Rickey Henderson is an absolute terrible comparison. Henderson was in the top Ten in Batter Runs NINE times in his career. That is batting only...not including baserunning.
Crawford had a career best 12 batter runs last year. It is so far out of the top ten, that I didn't bother to investiage how much it is. I don't forsee many top ten finishes for him as a hitter. Rickey is so far above him, it is ridiculous.
I would say, unless Crawford starts either walking 100+ times a year to go with a .300 average, or starts hitting 30+ HR a year with his current mediocore OB%, then he will be more like Willie Wilson than Rickey Henderson.
Goot, I will let you investigate the start of Willie Wilson's career and compare him to Crawford. You wil be surprised. Wilson beats him handily in SB, and Batting average. He also has a similar mediocre OB%(actually is was above avg for a while), and the same knack for triples. Keep in mind that Wilson did his hitting in a much tougher era to accumulate offesne, as opposed to Crawford's ease of offense era.
Wilson played a long time, but he tailed off in the second half of his career. Crawford I think will end up being a better hitter, but he will be much closer to Wilson as opposed to Henderson(whom Crawford will never be remotely as good as).
<< <i>Currently Crawford's career OB% is .331 and the league OB% for his career is .332. That is not very good for a top of the order hitter.
Currently Crawford is 3.1 Batter Runs above the average player for his career. That isn't very good either.
Comparing him to Rickey Henderson is an absolute terrible comparison. Henderson was in the top Ten in Batter Runs NINE times in his career. That is batting only...not including baserunning.
Crawford had a career best 12 batter runs last year. It is so far out of the top ten, that I didn't bother to investiage how much it is. I don't forsee many top ten finishes for him as a hitter. Rickey is so far above him, it is ridiculous.
I would say, unless Crawford starts either walking 100+ times a year to go with a .300 average, or starts hitting 30+ HR a year with his current mediocore OB%, then he will be more like Willie Wilson than Rickey Henderson.
Goot, I will let you investigate the start of Willie Wilson's career and compare him to Crawford. You wil be surprised. Wilson beats him handily in SB, and Batting average. He also has a similar mediocre OB%(actually is was above avg for a while), and the same knack for triples. Keep in mind that Wilson did his hitting in a much tougher era to accumulate offesne, as opposed to Crawford's ease of offense era.
Wilson played a long time, but he tailed off in the second half of his career. Crawford I think will end up being a better hitter, but he will be much closer to Wilson as opposed to Henderson(whom Crawford will never be remotely as good as). >>
These are all fair points, although the original discussion was about who is the most underrated player-- not whether Carl Crawford was a great player. He could, in fact, be a slightly above average player and still be the most underrated player in baseball. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's certainly possible.
The central problem here, as TomG pointed out (and BTW, this would be a fine time for me to say that I've been reading Tom's posts for some time, and I'm continually impressed by their thoughtfulness and intelligence), you have to initially define the criteria for being 'rated' before you can have a meaningful discussion on this issue. It's like the silly HOF debates; since there's no clear criteria for getting in, or being left out, it's meaningless to discuss who 'should' be in or out.
He likes his hometown player and y'all just ripped him a new one.
Regardless of what your opinion is, Crawford is underrated and on an inferior team.
At least he shows love for HIS team and players.
This is one of the many reasons why the younger generations have lost interest in baseball.
Freaking absolutely pathetic and y'all should be ashamed of yourselves.