The only way to fix this going forward will be to imbed passive RF ID tags and sell cheap hand held readers. This would have to go hand in hand with consumer protection policies backed by paypal to help anyone buying from eBay
Geeeeezzz..... Now it's PCGS !!! What's more crazy, is that fake holder looks too good, and that fake Bust Dollar on ebay looks way off from the Heritage pic... It would be intresting to see if PCGS will compensate any winning bidders from those auctions. UNFRICKI'N BELIEVABLE !!!
<< <i>The only way to fix this going forward will be to imbed passive RF ID tags and sell cheap hand held readers. This would have to go hand in hand with consumer protection policies backed by paypal to help anyone buying from eBay >>
As far as I know RF ID tags are not foolproof secure. There is a growing subculture of people embedded them in their hands as keys to their car and house.. and security has been brought up a number of times.
"I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
Wow...that is scary. I hope that nobody in the US decides to take a shot at being a distributor for the Chinese seller. These could cause a problem for many collectors if they infiltrated the market.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
I asked the seller if he had any gold coins in those slabs for sale, here's his response: "Dear sir, I only have Chinese gold coin for sale, if you want,please contact with me, my E-mail:yongkun999@yahoo.com.cn
The first slab company that puts together a truly substantive "market acceptable" solution to this problem could easily drive the other guys out of business. I'm not sure the press releases issued so far rise to the level of a "market acceptable" solution.
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds >>
so in other words half a years pay for a top grader... seems reasonable for a multi million dollar company. my 10G number was pulled out of my butt and i am glad you corrected it.
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds >>
so in other words half a years pay for a top grader... seems reasonable for a multi million dollar company. my 10G number was pulled out of my butt and i am glad you corrected it. >>
top graders make far more than 200k by the way, so yes....it is an easy number to cough up to save your reputation when it is being infringed upon by counterfeiters.
New PCGS CLONETECH slab, a clone in everyslab.. just go ahead and counterfiet me.. I dare you!!!
btw.. I realize as much as everyone else how serious this is, and don't mean to offend, just thought a laugh might do us all some good.
"I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>I acutally just had a Chinese buyer buy a bunch of slabbed British 19th C. pieces, expect we'll be seeing multiples of those coins soon. >>
I wouldn't say that necessarily. As i have posted here a few times, wealthy Chinese industrialists are buying every 4, 5 and 6 figure US and world coin they can get their hands on. These businessmen are flush with money, and willing to spend it. I know of one $1 million US coin and two 6 figure world coin that are now in the hands of a Chinese collector; and i'm sure there are many more. I know of two higher end British collectors that recently liquidated their entire collections. Most were NGC/PCGS slabbed, and the vast majority went to Chinese collectors.
Collecting is becoming big over there; i attended a Beijing coin show that made our FUN/ANA/etc. shows like like neighborhood swap meets by comparison. Big, glitzy, with tons of people and event organizers with police booting out anyone that appears to have fake coins for sale. More than a couple large and well known Singapore and Hong Kong dealers had a million plus in inventory of better PCGS and NGC coins.
What do you think? Do the coins look counterfeit to you?
Dear sir, Now I send you pictures of two gold coins. If you love them,please let me know the price you would offer. Thank you! >>
Initial impression (for the two posted by fruitloops) is the font is not quite right. Also, like the other fakes, the barcode is too tall & the halogram is printed off-center, too far to the right.
Edited to add: Also, I'm not much of a gold coin person, but the first one (the MS64 dated 1916) has a wiped or rubbed look to it.
I might as well post pics of the other two fakes that he has, as I would expect that his auctions will be removed by tomorrow.
Also, on these fakes, there's something funky going on with the bottom of the C in PCGS at the lower right of the slab. Would be nice to get a better look.
This is all very disappointing. Just one more reason I'd rather buy off of forums like this than on eBay. However, I never buy anything from outside of the U.S. and China is a huge red flag.
Just sad to think of all those bidders on these auctions who don't have a clue they are buying fakes and mostly likely will not know until they or their heirs try to sell.
This is a seller who needs to have their production facility raided, shut down and destroyed. If they're selling them on EBAY, they're selling them in the home country too, so you'd think PCGS would get the eager cooperation of China law enforcement. I can't think of any other problem that would be more of a top priority than this. It strikes at the consumer confidence of the industry. If the consumer can't have confidence in the authenticity of the TPG slab...what use are the services? That was the whole foundation (or a big part of it) of why TPG services were created. If they can't serve that basic function...their value added proposition goes right down the 'ole crapper.
While this is all an area we need to be aware of and cautious about-it sounds as if some are going overboard in fear. The Chinese have been making fake coins for hundreds of years yet the market is not saturated with them yet. I doubt if the fake slabs will be any different. You are more likely to get a fake $20 bill in your change today than you are to purchase a fake coin from a reputable source. Anyone who purchases their coins from a Chinese coin shop or a group of traveling gypsies deserve what they get. Like everything else in life we just need to use common sense in our daily dealings and be as informed as possible. The US Mint is working daily to develop methods of producing bills that cannot be reproduced. I'm sure PCGS/NGC is doing the same. It will be a never ending battle to stay one step ahead of those who are dishonest.
"This is a seller who needs to have their production facility raided, shut down and destroyed. If they're selling them on EBAY, they're selling them in the home country too, so you'd think PCGS would get the eager cooperation of China law enforcement."
Don't hold your breath. US law enforcement (FBI) would need to be involved.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>Don't hold your breath. The Chinese govenment is probably involved in the production facility.
Nick >>
Yes I don't think the Chinese government has much motivation in shutting down the counterfeit operations. The illicit dvd and cd industry has florished there for many years.
Because ebay employs not a single numismatist, despite selling $4 billion in coins a year.
Their staff only knows to kill an auction for a large cent described as VG-8, or a coin in an SEGS slab. >>
Then I have a question. Remember that famed lawyer, that man amongst men, the friend of the collector everywhere, who even fancies himself a collector, who sued pcgs and ngc for the first strike thing? What's his name again. Chick Lipcon? Where ya't Chick? Er Chuck? Here's one you can really sink those torts into. Ebay almost conspiring to rip people off, and if not that then certainly standing aside while it happens.
Where y'at on this one ? ( Y'at I think is a New Orleans term, not sure but I think so
I agree with those saying the Chinese government will not be of help in stopping the production of fake US collector coins, and fake PCGS/NGC/ANACS grading holders. The Chinese government has no reason to want to help in this situation, in fact, I would not be surprised to hear that Chinese government officials are involved in this criminal activity. I am one who has no use for ANY contact with China. Communism is a terrible threat to the world.
If the phony slab business gets much publicity here in the US, it could well cause a severe drop in the value of our coin collections. The lack of confidence in coin slabs would most certainly make collectors hesitant to buy anything, for fear prices will plummet due to this criminal activity.
I do not know where PCGS gets their plastic holders, but this source should be investigated most thoroughly. Seems to me to be the easiest way to duplicate the machinery and molds to make the fake PCGS slabs.
Personally, this fake slab business has made me afraid to spend more money on my coin collection. I see this as potentially causing the worst drop in US collector coin prices we have ever seen.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
This persons auctions are taken care of for now; please let the ANA know if you see him again. If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people. Thanks for your help on this one!
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>This persons auctions are taken care of for now; please let the ANA know if you see him again. If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people. Thanks for your help on this one! >>
Great, thanks for your help and kind offer!
Okay guys, we didn't really win round one. The same seller will be back with his wares soon, probably with some lighting quick one day sale or something. IF he is NARU'd from ebay, you can bet he will have everyone he knows sign up for new ebay accounts, based in China and other places. He is probably willing to track down other scammers on ebay here and in other countries to push a few more of these here and there.
Before long, these slabs are liable to be sprinkled all over the place on ebay; only vigilence by those of us that are true numismatists (ie: this forum) is going to keep this at bay, and allow ebay to learn what to look for and what sellers to keep their eye on. This may also kill two birds with one stone; many of us know that certain ebay sellers are scam artists, but ebay lets them stay around as they turn a blind eye to mis-represeting damaged coins, bullying buyers with feedback/legal threats, etc. If these sellers buy into the Chinese counterfeiters greed and start pushing a few of them, we can expose these ebay sellers and possibly have them NARU'd too.
I wonder if they have tried selling these counterfeit slabs directly to the motel room ripoff buyers yet.........
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>This persons auctions are taken care of for now; please let the ANA know if you see him again. If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people. Thanks for your help on this one! >>
The worse part about ebay is that with overseas sellers such as this they reincarnate under a different user id. Sometimes a new id sometimes they hijack inactive accounts.
Interesting that we still call mainland China a “communist” country, yet they (and Taiwan) operate the most purely laissez-faire capitalistic markets in the world. Adam Smith would have been shocked at the way Chinese workers are treated (48,000 pins a day from 18 workers come true !). Florentine Niccolo Machiavelli could look at the Chinese pragmatic leadership and find most of his “princely” characteristics.
Business is: a bribe here and there, bring in the local party leader as a partner, adulterate products, work laborers to the bone, lie, cheat and deceive so long as they don’t get caught; respect no one unless they have more money; respect no one’s property regardless of their status; honor profit above all. (Kind of sounds like Star Trek’s Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, too.)
True, the Communist Party controls government, but what they do certainly does not fit much of anything that Karl Marx (or Goucho Marx) wrote. The place seems closer to the ruling oligarchies of Renaissance Italy, including the violence and repression of once-independent populations.
I think its safe to say that allot of these fake coins are already in the hands of unsuspecting collectors. Just looking at the shear number of fakes pictured here is very scary. I am very curious as to what PCGS' response will be.
<< <i> The only way to fix this going forward will be to imbed passive RF ID tags and sell cheap hand held readers. This would have to go hand in hand with consumer protection policies backed by paypal to help anyone buying from eBay >>
The sad truth is that nearly anything can be copied by these guys. For example, I have heard stories of a very popular brand of network equipment purchased from authorized resellers turned out to be a knockoff! The customers even used the equipment for several months until it just stopped working. Now, this manufacturer knew the customer purchased the equipment, the reseller it was purchased through, and the distribution warehouse it shipped from, and the serial numbers that were registered for warranty purposes. When they received the broken unit(s) for warranty repair, they opened them up and after considerable investigation learned that they were not a real <popular brand> product but a very well executed knock off. These devices even worked just like a real unit for several months. To make matters worse, nobody could figure out how these got into the supply chain!
Needless to say, copying an RFID tag will not be much of a barrier.
Comments
<< <i>pcgs69, have you emailed PCGS about this problem??? >>
I just emailed David Hall at this address: dh@collectors.com and sent him a link to this thread.
<< <i>
<< <i>pcgs69, have you emailed PCGS about this problem??? >>
I just emailed David Hall at this address: dh@collectors.com and sent him a link to this thread. >>
Good job and thanks for reporting this upcoming reality....very scary scenario.
<< <i>The only way to fix this going forward will be to imbed passive RF ID tags and sell cheap hand held readers. This would have to go hand in hand with consumer protection policies backed by paypal to help anyone buying from eBay >>
As far as I know RF ID tags are not foolproof secure. There is a growing subculture of people embedded them in their hands as keys to their car and house.. and security has been brought up a number of times.
"I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
"Dear sir,
I only have Chinese gold coin for sale, if you want,please contact with me, my E-mail:yongkun999@yahoo.com.cn
- yongkun999"
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds >>
so in other words half a years pay for a top grader... seems reasonable for a multi million dollar company. my 10G number was
pulled out of my butt and i am glad you corrected it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?
there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce... >>
Having worked on the design and development of a number of plastic injection molds, let me just say that the cost will be well in excess of $10,000, more on the order of $100,000, depending on the size of the tool and the intricacy of the anti-counterfeiting devices.
An interesting sidenote - a growing number of US manufacturers are saving money by having their injection molds made in China, but then running them and producing parts in the States. In such cases, it is ridiculously easy for the Chinese mold manufacturer to make a duplicate set which will be exactly the same as the original tool.
Sean Reynolds >>
so in other words half a years pay for a top grader... seems reasonable for a multi million dollar company. my 10G number was
pulled out of my butt and i am glad you corrected it. >>
top graders make far more than 200k by the way, so yes....it is an easy number to cough up to save your reputation when it is being infringed upon by counterfeiters.
New PCGS CLONETECH slab, a clone in everyslab.. just go ahead and counterfiet me.. I dare you!!!
btw.. I realize as much as everyone else how serious this is, and don't mean to offend, just thought a laugh might do us all some good.
"I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
If CLCT does nothing, the branded slabs are ALL in trouble.
What do you think? Do the coins look counterfeit to you?
Dear sir,
Now I send you pictures of two gold coins. If you love them,please let me know the price you would offer. Thank you!
<< <i>I acutally just had a Chinese buyer buy a bunch of slabbed British 19th C. pieces, expect we'll be seeing multiples of those coins soon. >>
I wouldn't say that necessarily. As i have posted here a few times, wealthy Chinese industrialists are buying every 4, 5 and 6 figure US and world coin they can get their hands on. These businessmen are flush with money, and willing to spend it. I know of one $1 million US coin and two 6 figure world coin that are now in the hands of a Chinese collector; and i'm sure there are many more. I know of two higher end British collectors that recently liquidated their entire collections. Most were NGC/PCGS slabbed, and the vast majority went to Chinese collectors.
Collecting is becoming big over there; i attended a Beijing coin show that made our FUN/ANA/etc. shows like like neighborhood swap meets by comparison. Big, glitzy, with tons of people and event organizers with police booting out anyone that appears to have fake coins for sale. More than a couple large and well known Singapore and Hong Kong dealers had a million plus in inventory of better PCGS and NGC coins.
<< <i>Here's the sellers response and pics.
What do you think? Do the coins look counterfeit to you?
Dear sir,
Now I send you pictures of two gold coins. If you love them,please let me know the price you would offer. Thank you! >>
Initial impression (for the two posted by fruitloops) is the font is not quite right. Also, like the other fakes, the barcode is too tall & the halogram is printed off-center, too far to the right.
Edited to add: Also, I'm not much of a gold coin person, but the first one (the MS64 dated 1916) has a wiped or rubbed look to it.
I might as well post pics of the other two fakes that he has, as I would expect that his auctions will be removed by tomorrow.
Just sad to think of all those bidders on these auctions who don't have a clue they are buying fakes and mostly likely will not know until they or their heirs try to sell.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>If PCGS isn't already a member, they need to join the VERO program. Auctions reported by VERO members are usually an instant nuke.
Russ, NCNE >>
Very effective. I haven't even been able to pick up an E-meter
Don't hold your breath. US law enforcement (FBI) would need to be involved.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Don't hold your breath. The Chinese govenment is probably involved in the production facility.
Nick >>
Yes I don't think the Chinese government has much motivation in shutting down the counterfeit operations. The illicit dvd and cd industry has florished there for many years.
<< <i>At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...
Ebay Link
Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005
Heritage
eBay coin left and Heritage right:
How the fk is this still on ebay?????
Who is minding the store in this country?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...
Ebay Link
Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005
Heritage
How the fk is this still on ebay?????
Who is minding the store in this country?
It's amazing how all of the low priced stuff that gets reported is instantly removed and stuff like this is allowed to keep going.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...
Ebay Link
Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005
Heritage
How the fk is this still on ebay?????
Who is minding the store in this country?
It's amazing how all of the low priced stuff that gets reported is instantly removed and stuff like this is allowed to keep going.
Because Ebay will make a very nice vigorish from the sale of this fake and reward this scumbag at the same time.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
Because Ebay will make a very nice vigorish from the sale of this fake and reward this scumbag at the same time. >>
It's only a matter of time before someone catches e-bay purposefully ignoring some auctions and starts a class action lawsuit.
<< <i>
How the fk is this still on ebay?????
Who is minding the store in this country?
Because ebay employs not a single numismatist, despite selling $4 billion in coins a year.
Their staff only knows to kill an auction for a large cent described as VG-8, or a coin in an SEGS slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>
How the fk is this still on ebay?????
Who is minding the store in this country?
Because ebay employs not a single numismatist, despite selling $4 billion in coins a year.
Their staff only knows to kill an auction for a large cent described as VG-8, or a coin in an SEGS slab. >>
Then I have a question. Remember that famed lawyer, that man amongst men, the friend of the collector everywhere, who even fancies himself a collector, who sued pcgs and ngc for the first strike thing? What's his name again. Chick Lipcon? Where ya't Chick? Er Chuck? Here's one you can really sink those torts into. Ebay almost conspiring to rip people off, and if not that then certainly standing aside while it happens.
Where y'at on this one ? ( Y'at I think is a New Orleans term, not sure but I think so
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
2 of the coins were bid to ~$1,600 before they poofed.
<< <i>eBay just pulled the auctions.
2 of the coins were bid to ~$1,600 before they poofed. >>
Pretty amazing it went that far.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>eBay just pulled the auctions.
2 of the coins were bid to ~$1,600 before they poofed. >>
Pretty amazing it went that far. >>
I'm sure they have a good learning curve. Next time it will be short auctions over a weekend.
If the phony slab business gets much publicity here in the US, it could well cause a severe drop in the value of our coin collections. The lack of confidence in coin slabs would most certainly make collectors hesitant to buy anything, for fear prices will plummet due to this criminal activity.
I do not know where PCGS gets their plastic holders, but this source should be investigated most thoroughly. Seems to me to be the easiest way to duplicate the machinery and molds to make the fake PCGS slabs.
Personally, this fake slab business has made me afraid to spend more money on my coin collection. I see this as potentially causing the worst drop in US collector coin prices we have ever seen.
If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people.
Thanks for your help on this one!
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>This persons auctions are taken care of for now; please let the ANA know if you see him again.
If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people.
Thanks for your help on this one! >>
Great, thanks for your help and kind offer!
Okay guys, we didn't really win round one. The same seller will be back with his wares soon, probably with some lighting quick one day sale or something. IF he is NARU'd from ebay, you can bet he will have everyone he knows sign up for new ebay accounts, based in China and other places. He is probably willing to track down other scammers on ebay here and in other countries to push a few more of these here and there.
Before long, these slabs are liable to be sprinkled all over the place on ebay; only vigilence by those of us that are true numismatists (ie: this forum) is going to keep this at bay, and allow ebay to learn what to look for and what sellers to keep their eye on. This may also kill two birds with one stone; many of us know that certain ebay sellers are scam artists, but ebay lets them stay around as they turn a blind eye to mis-represeting damaged coins, bullying buyers with feedback/legal threats, etc. If these sellers buy into the Chinese counterfeiters greed and start pushing a few of them, we can expose these ebay sellers and possibly have them NARU'd too.
<< <i>This persons auctions are taken care of for now; please let the ANA know if you see him again.
If you have emails from this seller please forward them to me at sisler@money.org and I will make sure that they get to the rite people.
Thanks for your help on this one! >>
The worse part about ebay is that with overseas sellers such as this they reincarnate under a different user id. Sometimes a new id sometimes they hijack inactive accounts.
Business is: a bribe here and there, bring in the local party leader as a partner, adulterate products, work laborers to the bone, lie, cheat and deceive so long as they don’t get caught; respect no one unless they have more money; respect no one’s property regardless of their status; honor profit above all. (Kind of sounds like Star Trek’s Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, too.)
True, the Communist Party controls government, but what they do certainly does not fit much of anything that Karl Marx (or Goucho Marx) wrote. The place seems closer to the ruling oligarchies of Renaissance Italy, including the violence and repression of once-independent populations.
<< <i>I wonder if they have tried selling these counterfeit slabs directly to the motel room ripoff buyers yet......... >>
If they did, it would be poetic justice.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i> The only way to fix this going forward will be to imbed passive RF ID tags and sell cheap hand held readers. This would have to go hand in hand with consumer protection policies backed by paypal to help anyone buying from eBay >>
The sad truth is that nearly anything can be copied by these guys. For example, I have heard stories of a very popular brand of network equipment purchased from authorized resellers turned out to be a knockoff! The customers even used the equipment for several months until it just stopped working. Now, this manufacturer knew the customer purchased the equipment, the reseller it was purchased through, and the distribution warehouse it shipped from, and the serial numbers that were registered for warranty purposes. When they received the broken unit(s) for warranty repair, they opened them up and after considerable investigation learned that they were not a real <popular brand> product but a very well executed knock off. These devices even worked just like a real unit for several months. To make matters worse, nobody could figure out how these got into the supply chain!
Needless to say, copying an RFID tag will not be much of a barrier.