eBay: Chinese attempt to fake a PCGS slab?

pcgs69pcgs69 Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭
At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...

Ebay Link

Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005 image
Heritage

eBay coin left and Heritage right:
imageimage
imageimage
«13

Comments

  • fcfc Posts: 12,729 ✭✭✭
    yup. obvious problem. time to change the slab back to the rattler ;-)
    reported.
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,568
    Ugh, that's scary. The coin looks fake, but the slab looks halfway decent.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573
    .........and so it starts. PCGS better issue a press release and start working on a new counterfeit resistant slab, akin to the one NGC has in the works. gotta' stay a step ahead, if the counterfeiters continue to get this good.

    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Same die variety as one of the fake coins in the fake NGC slab. Same sickly yellow toning. I say bad.
    TD
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • Maybe carefully cut open on the sides somehow then replaced?





    -sm
  • TopdollarpaidTopdollarpaid Posts: 526 ✭✭✭
    time for a new sticker company

    To guarantee the slab is Real

    LOL
    Randy Conway

    Www.killermarbles.com

    Www.suncitycoin.com
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭
    Scary image
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573


    << <i>time for a new sticker company

    To guarantee the slab is Real

    LOL >>



    and then a seperate company that laser engraves a logo over the sticker and the slab, to ensure both are legit.

    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • pcgs69pcgs69 Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Maybe carefully cut open on the sides somehow then replaced?

    Definitely different inserts... if you look, the barcode is different on both and the position of the letters in relation to the insert's edge is different.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭
    This is the same seller that had the fake NGC slabs a few months ago that I reported on. He told me at that time that he would have PCGS slabs very soon. I reported it to pcgs at that time, but they never responded to my email.

    Here is one of the emails I received from him;

    "Dear Wes,
    牋?I can make all US coins to be NGC,ANACS. I will invest $20000 to make PCGS grade holder. You are quite right if you find such a partner like me. Do you know, all the Chinese fake coins (US coins are original, such as: trade dollars,,Morgan Dollar ,Lafayette Dollar,Seated Liberty Dollar) were producted by myself. I have my own factory which could be made fake production directly. I guarantee that you can made much profit if you do the cooperation with me.
    ?
    ?"
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭
    I looked in his eBay store about 4 of these image
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,863
    The photos on eBay are crumby, but the photos on the Heratige site don't much look like the coin in the photos on eBay.

    Guess with the recent NGC counterfeits it was just a matter of time before PCGS took a hit as well. Bummer.
  • Here they are (emphasis on the word "they")...

    image

    Edited to add: Oops, you've already added the pics.
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭
    The seated liberty no one has bid on yet looks like a really poor fake.
    Libertys head looks like a duck.

    Wait until this clown starts adding fake cac stickers to them.
  • dizzleccdizzlecc Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭
    This is really scary. The holder looks legit at first glance. The coins look fake or just not right.

    I did pick out something that was funny. The same seller has a pillar dollar that has a misspelling. "Carolvs" is spelled "Farolvs"

    image



    image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 15,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They are without question counterfeits and I sent a PM to Carol, but I do not know if PCGS is aware of these auctions already.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • You would think if this guy went to all that trouble, he would at least get the bar code right.........

    Rick
  • MPLunaticMPLunatic Posts: 633 ✭✭
    Several months ago, I did the same thing as Utahcoin with this seller and tried to find out more information on the operation. As utah said, he claimed to be producing pcgs slabs in the near future. At that point he had made only ngc and anacs slabs. He sent me pictures of his inventory and I almost crapped my pants. Check them out:
    I have tons of more photos if anybody wants more

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭
    Reading over the emails he sent me, he claims to be the big maker of counterfeit coins in China. He sent me pictures of STACKS of counterfeit NGC & ANACS slabs. He offered to make any coin that I wanted.

    If someone were to contact him and offer to be his U.S. "distributor", you might be able to get a hold of one on the cheap side and give it to PCGS. That's what I did for NGC. He won't deal with me anymore..... Might be something to do with the PayPal charge back image
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • vplitevplite Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This is the same seller that had the fake NGC slabs a few months ago that I reported on. He told me at that time that he would have PCGS slabs very soon. I reported it to pcgs at that time, but they never responded to my email.

    Here is one of the emails I received from him;

    "Dear Wes,
    牋?I can make all US coins to be NGC,ANACS. I will invest $20000 to make PCGS grade holder. You are quite right if you find such a partner like me. Do you know, all the Chinese fake coins (US coins are original, such as: trade dollars,,Morgan Dollar ,Lafayette Dollar,Seated Liberty Dollar) were producted by myself. I have my own factory which could be made fake production directly. I guarantee that you can made much profit if you do the cooperation with me.
    ?
    ?" >>



    He should have said, "I guarantee you will do time..."
    The Golden Rule: Those with the gold make the rules.
  • must not be too difficult to make a piece of plastic.
    image
    ----------------------------------------
    jr
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭
    He went to the trouble to match all the cert. numbers with matching coins in the pcgs database.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He went to the trouble to match all the cert. numbers with matching coins in the pcgs database. >>



    I have a data base of Cert # and they all match with real coins.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • if they can hack in the Pentagon's system, they can make plastics and labels. Run for it.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭
    What happens when PCGS can no longer tell their own slabs from the counterfeits? What happens when the experts can no longer the counterfeits from the originals? Is this really the beginning of the end of coin collecting?

    Very scary!
    Tom

  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's a list on Cert's on known counterfeit slabs that I was able to copy down from his pics.

    COUNTERFEIT ANACS & NGC SLAB NUMBERS
    Please note that these numbers are legitimate numbers for a SINGLE coin. Therefore, one coin bearing these numbers is genuine. These numbers have been copied from photos sent by a seller in China.
    NGC
    1795 Bust Dollar AU55 1871265-009
    1795 Bust AU55 1515842-002
    1795 Bust AU50 562290-001
    1795 Bust AU55 1925095-002
    1796 Bust XF40 398818-005
    Trade Dollars
    1877 S Trade Dollar AU55 562449-008
    1877 S MS62 1500053-004
    1876 S MS61 3003606-008
    1875 S MS61 3003606-008
    1877 S MS60 3022418-004
    1877 S MS63 1850580-010
    1875 S XF45 2068372-004

    ANACS
    1801 Bust Dollar VF20 2727654 All Old Style Slab
    1800 Bust VF35 2820185
    1875 CC Trade AU58 Details Cleaned 2951037
    1877 S MS60 Details Cleaned DDR 2965234
    1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2964950
    1878 S AU58 Details Cleaned 2951825
    1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2951825
    ANACS Trade Dollars (Cont.)
    1878 S EF40 Details Cleaned 2951835
    1875 CC AU55 Details Cleaned 2909411
    1873 S EF45 Details Cleaned 1504664
    1878 S EF45 2731036
    1873 CC EF40 Details Cleaned 2950086
    1875 CC AU50 Details Corroded 1504683
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • Just for documentation...

    Item numbers;

    120237922227
    120237920885
    120237926788
    120237928224

    Seller: yongkun999 (feedback rating of 13)

    Location: GuangDong, FoShan, China

    Example;

    image
  • DJCoinzDJCoinz Posts: 3,909
    Appears as though those who said NGC & ANACS were the only ones being counterfeited will have to eat their words. image That's a very good fake slab.
    aka Dan
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573


    << <i>Appears as though those who said NGC & ANACS were the only ones being counterfeited will have to eat their words. image That's a very good fake slab. >>




    yup. watching someone else get slapped may be funny, but getting slapped yourself hurts. - Ancient Chinese proverb
    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • WalmannWalmann Posts: 2,860
    Now imagine what could be done with fake slabs and real coins such as 1999 Delaware Silver Proof of any grade, but showing 70DCAM
    .
    These fake slab miss the mark for those familar within, but chances are that they will improve.

    If the fake slabs become cheap enough then there is a slew of actual modern coins that will be used and "upgraded" to 70 status, no need to forge the coins in some cases.
    Da-svi-da-niya USA, Zdra-stvu-eetee USSA

    Just PARK IT, the offical motto of the US Mint for the next decade

    Drecken Sie?
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573


    << <i>Now imagine what could be done with fake slabs and real coins such as 1999 Delaware Silver Proof of any grade, but showing 70DCAM
    .
    These fake slab miss the mark for those familar within, but chances are that they will improve.

    If the fake slabs become cheap enough then there is a slew of actual modern coins that will be used and "upgraded" to 70 status, no need to forge the coins in some cases. >>




    yeah, producing plastic slabs that are really convincing isn't rocket science; if he is even reasonably close on the first pass, it won't take long 'till they hone their skills to get them spot on.

    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • image
    image
    ----------------------------------------
    jr
  • This is downright scary.
    At least you can tell the slab is fake because of the color of the plastic, it looks too milky white IMHO
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    I guess this means you still have to know your stuff when buying coins. No use in depending on the slab at this point.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115


    << <i>This is downright scary.
    At least you can tell the slab is fake because of the color of the plastic, it looks too milky white IMHO >>



    Could be the photography.

    If someone bought this, sent it to PCGS for re-grade how will PCGS handle it? Will they help the owner recoup some funds or the owner is just out?
  • RussRuss Posts: 50,068 ✭✭
    If PCGS isn't already a member, they need to join the VERO program. Auctions reported by VERO members are usually an instant nuke.

    Russ, NCNE
  • This is touched upon in this video.. this day sadly has been coming for a while. Maybe its time to ban the importing of coins from China (said half tongue in cheek)
    Linky

    "I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
  • BBNBBN Posts: 3,644 ✭✭✭
    seller in China+bidders kept private = stay FAR away.
    image
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    I wonder if such a ban would be politically feasible.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,729 ✭✭✭
    i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
    and release it immediately?

    there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
    hard to reproduce...

    i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
    hits.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
    and release it immediately?

    there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
    hard to reproduce...

    i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
    hits. >>



    A new slab doesn't take care of the MILLIONS of old slabs out there.

    Here's a scary scenario:

    Joe Blow get in cahoots with Mr. Yongkun999 and has 12 pcgs (or ngc or anacs) slabbed xf40 Bust Dollars. Mr. Blow jets into Long Beach, Baltimore or F.U.N. and visits 12 small time dealers showing each one 1 or 2 coins with the "My grandfather's coin(s)" story. Mr. Blow says "granddad paid $2000 years ago and says I shouldn't take a penny less". Mr. Blow leaves the show within an hour $24K richer (ok less $2K travel & coin cost).

    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!


  • << <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
    and release it immediately?

    there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
    hard to reproduce...

    i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
    hits. >>



    I don't think they thought the Chinese were as close as they are. I know they have travelled to China to investigate the problem. But as recently as Jan. they were saying the Chinese are a ways off from getting the textures right, and the hidden security meassures were working. I am sure something will be done now. And honestly not to be a kool-aid drinking apologist, we haven't seen them in hand.. they could be very poor fakes in hand.

    "I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i> And honestly not to be a kool-aid drinking apologist, we haven't seen them in hand.. they could be very poor fakes in hand. >>



    Well, I had one of the fake NGC slabs in my hand and I could have passed it off to 90+% of the dealers at any given show. I have to assume the fake pcgs slab is as good.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 17,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder how many of these fakes are now working their way into the US coin market via the flea market circuit?
    All glory is fleeting.
  • Ouch, thats not good image guess I was just being hopefull. This is very bad indeed.

    "I am sorry you are unhappy with the care you recieved, is their anything I can do for you right now, how about some high speed lead therapy?" - A qoute from my wife's nursing forum

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." – Thomas Jefferson
  • fcfc Posts: 12,729 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
    and release it immediately?

    there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
    hard to reproduce...

    i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
    hits. >>



    A new slab doesn't take care of the MILLIONS of old slabs out there.

    Here's a scary scenario:

    Joe Blow get in cahoots with Mr. Yongkun999 and has 12 pcgs (or ngc or anacs) slabbed xf40 Bust Dollars. Mr. Blow jets into Long Beach, Baltimore or F.U.N. and visits 12 small time dealers showing each one 1 or 2 coins with the "My grandfather's coin(s)" story. Mr. Blow says "granddad paid $2000 years ago and says I shouldn't take a penny less". Mr. Blow leaves the show within an hour $24K richer (ok less $2K travel & coin cost). >>



    true. but the big money coins would quickly start getting into new slabs. any cross over attempts would get into new slabs. new submitted
    coins would get into new slabs.

    within a year or two these would be popping up just as frequently
    as the new anacs slabs... if not more.

    just allowing it to happen without showing progress in defeating them
    could be disastrous.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573
    This whole thing shouldn't surprise anyone, the Chinese have been faking currency since way before the US was even a country; with great results

    I wouldn't be concerned about an import ban, the actual export of a ton of our scarce/rare US and world coins going to rich collectors in China is also a concern. Sure, once purchased, they have a right to take them to their homes; but with the industrial economy booming over there, they are buying up a ton of rare US and world coins.

    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 14,875 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...

    Ebay Link

    Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005 image
    Heritage

    eBay coin left and Heritage right:
    imageimage
    imageimage >>



    pcgs69, have you emailed PCGS about this problem???
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 17,763 ✭✭✭✭
    Interesting thread I started, ATS, last Dec. 26th.

    Some useful information inclosed within.

    peacockcoins

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