eBay: Chinese attempt to fake a PCGS slab?

pcgs69

At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...

Ebay Link

Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005
Heritage

eBay coin left and Heritage right:

fc

yup. obvious problem. time to change the slab back to the rattler ;-)
reported.

doh

Ugh, that's scary. The coin looks fake, but the slab looks halfway decent.

Doogy

.........and so it starts. PCGS better issue a press release and start working on a new counterfeit resistant slab, akin to the one NGC has in the works. gotta' stay a step ahead, if the counterfeiters continue to get this good.

CaptHenway

Same die variety as one of the fake coins in the fake NGC slab. Same sickly yellow toning. I say bad.
TD

SpaceMonkey

Maybe carefully cut open on the sides somehow then replaced?





-sm

Topdollarpaid

time for a new sticker company

To guarantee the slab is Real

LOL

Placid

Scary

Doogy

<< <i>time for a new sticker company

To guarantee the slab is Real

LOL >>



and then a seperate company that laser engraves a logo over the sticker and the slab, to ensure both are legit.

pcgs69

<< <i>Maybe carefully cut open on the sides somehow then replaced?

Definitely different inserts... if you look, the barcode is different on both and the position of the letters in relation to the insert's edge is different.

UtahCoin

This is the same seller that had the fake NGC slabs a few months ago that I reported on. He told me at that time that he would have PCGS slabs very soon. I reported it to pcgs at that time, but they never responded to my email.

Here is one of the emails I received from him;

"Dear Wes,
牋?I can make all US coins to be NGC,ANACS. I will invest $20000 to make PCGS grade holder. You are quite right if you find such a partner like me. Do you know, all the Chinese fake coins (US coins are original, such as: trade dollars,,Morgan Dollar ,Lafayette Dollar,Seated Liberty Dollar) were producted by myself. I have my own factory which could be made fake production directly. I guarantee that you can made much profit if you do the cooperation with me.
?
?"

Placid

I looked in his eBay store about 4 of these

zeebob

The photos on eBay are crumby, but the photos on the Heratige site don't much look like the coin in the photos on eBay.

Guess with the recent NGC counterfeits it was just a matter of time before PCGS took a hit as well. Bummer.

Tyler1924S

Here they are (emphasis on the word "they")...



Edited to add: Oops, you've already added the pics.

Placid

The seated liberty no one has bid on yet looks like a really poor fake.
Libertys head looks like a duck.

Wait until this clown starts adding fake cac stickers to them.

dizzlecc

This is really scary. The holder looks legit at first glance. The coins look fake or just not right.

I did pick out something that was funny. The same seller has a pillar dollar that has a misspelling. "Carolvs" is spelled "Farolvs"

TomB

They are without question counterfeits and I sent a PM to Carol, but I do not know if PCGS is aware of these auctions already.

bottleguy

You would think if this guy went to all that trouble, he would at least get the bar code right.........

Rick

MPLunatic

Several months ago, I did the same thing as Utahcoin with this seller and tried to find out more information on the operation. As utah said, he claimed to be producing pcgs slabs in the near future. At that point he had made only ngc and anacs slabs. He sent me pictures of his inventory and I almost crapped my pants. Check them out:
I have tons of more photos if anybody wants more

UtahCoin

Reading over the emails he sent me, he claims to be the big maker of counterfeit coins in China. He sent me pictures of STACKS of counterfeit NGC & ANACS slabs. He offered to make any coin that I wanted.

If someone were to contact him and offer to be his U.S. "distributor", you might be able to get a hold of one on the cheap side and give it to PCGS. That's what I did for NGC. He won't deal with me anymore..... Might be something to do with the PayPal charge back

vplite

<< <i>This is the same seller that had the fake NGC slabs a few months ago that I reported on. He told me at that time that he would have PCGS slabs very soon. I reported it to pcgs at that time, but they never responded to my email.

Here is one of the emails I received from him;

"Dear Wes,
牋?I can make all US coins to be NGC,ANACS. I will invest $20000 to make PCGS grade holder. You are quite right if you find such a partner like me. Do you know, all the Chinese fake coins (US coins are original, such as: trade dollars,,Morgan Dollar ,Lafayette Dollar,Seated Liberty Dollar) were producted by myself. I have my own factory which could be made fake production directly. I guarantee that you can made much profit if you do the cooperation with me.
?
?" >>



He should have said, "I guarantee you will do time..."

cullenbryant

must not be too difficult to make a piece of plastic.

Placid

He went to the trouble to match all the cert. numbers with matching coins in the pcgs database.

UtahCoin

<< <i>He went to the trouble to match all the cert. numbers with matching coins in the pcgs database. >>



I have a data base of Cert # and they all match with real coins.

TrustNo1

if they can hack in the Pentagon's system, they can make plastics and labels. Run for it.

tjkillian

What happens when PCGS can no longer tell their own slabs from the counterfeits? What happens when the experts can no longer the counterfeits from the originals? Is this really the beginning of the end of coin collecting?

Very scary!

UtahCoin

Here's a list on Cert's on known counterfeit slabs that I was able to copy down from his pics.

COUNTERFEIT ANACS & NGC SLAB NUMBERS
Please note that these numbers are legitimate numbers for a SINGLE coin. Therefore, one coin bearing these numbers is genuine. These numbers have been copied from photos sent by a seller in China.
NGC
1795 Bust Dollar AU55 1871265-009
1795 Bust AU55 1515842-002
1795 Bust AU50 562290-001
1795 Bust AU55 1925095-002
1796 Bust XF40 398818-005
Trade Dollars
1877 S Trade Dollar AU55 562449-008
1877 S MS62 1500053-004
1876 S MS61 3003606-008
1875 S MS61 3003606-008
1877 S MS60 3022418-004
1877 S MS63 1850580-010
1875 S XF45 2068372-004

ANACS
1801 Bust Dollar VF20 2727654 All Old Style Slab
1800 Bust VF35 2820185
1875 CC Trade AU58 Details Cleaned 2951037
1877 S MS60 Details Cleaned DDR 2965234
1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2964950
1878 S AU58 Details Cleaned 2951825
1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2951825
ANACS Trade Dollars (Cont.)
1878 S EF40 Details Cleaned 2951835
1875 CC AU55 Details Cleaned 2909411
1873 S EF45 Details Cleaned 1504664
1878 S EF45 2731036
1873 CC EF40 Details Cleaned 2950086
1875 CC AU50 Details Corroded 1504683

Tyler1924S

Just for documentation...

Item numbers;

120237922227
120237920885
120237926788
120237928224

Seller: yongkun999 (feedback rating of 13)

Location: GuangDong, FoShan, China

Example;

DJCoinz

Appears as though those who said NGC & ANACS were the only ones being counterfeited will have to eat their words. That's a very good fake slab.

Doogy

<< <i>Appears as though those who said NGC & ANACS were the only ones being counterfeited will have to eat their words. That's a very good fake slab. >>




yup. watching someone else get slapped may be funny, but getting slapped yourself hurts. - Ancient Chinese proverb

Walmann

Now imagine what could be done with fake slabs and real coins such as 1999 Delaware Silver Proof of any grade, but showing 70DCAM
.
These fake slab miss the mark for those familar within, but chances are that they will improve.

If the fake slabs become cheap enough then there is a slew of actual modern coins that will be used and "upgraded" to 70 status, no need to forge the coins in some cases.

Doogy

<< <i>Now imagine what could be done with fake slabs and real coins such as 1999 Delaware Silver Proof of any grade, but showing 70DCAM
.
These fake slab miss the mark for those familar within, but chances are that they will improve.

If the fake slabs become cheap enough then there is a slew of actual modern coins that will be used and "upgraded" to 70 status, no need to forge the coins in some cases. >>




yeah, producing plastic slabs that are really convincing isn't rocket science; if he is even reasonably close on the first pass, it won't take long 'till they hone their skills to get them spot on.

cullenbryant

fruitloops

This is downright scary.
At least you can tell the slab is fake because of the color of the plastic, it looks too milky white IMHO

sumnom

I guess this means you still have to know your stuff when buying coins. No use in depending on the slab at this point.

BECOKA

<< <i>This is downright scary.
At least you can tell the slab is fake because of the color of the plastic, it looks too milky white IMHO >>



Could be the photography.

If someone bought this, sent it to PCGS for re-grade how will PCGS handle it? Will they help the owner recoup some funds or the owner is just out?

TwoKopeiki

Another seller:

meixiacoin1957

Russ

If PCGS isn't already a member, they need to join the VERO program. Auctions reported by VERO members are usually an instant nuke.

Russ, NCNE

Colquhoun

This is touched upon in this video.. this day sadly has been coming for a while. Maybe its time to ban the importing of coins from China (said half tongue in cheek)
Linky

BBN

seller in China+bidders kept private = stay FAR away.

sumnom

I wonder if such a ban would be politically feasible.

fc

i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?

there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce...

i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
hits.

UtahCoin

<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?

there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce...

i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
hits. >>



A new slab doesn't take care of the MILLIONS of old slabs out there.

Here's a scary scenario:

Joe Blow get in cahoots with Mr. Yongkun999 and has 12 pcgs (or ngc or anacs) slabbed xf40 Bust Dollars. Mr. Blow jets into Long Beach, Baltimore or F.U.N. and visits 12 small time dealers showing each one 1 or 2 coins with the "My grandfather's coin(s)" story. Mr. Blow says "granddad paid $2000 years ago and says I shouldn't take a penny less". Mr. Blow leaves the show within an hour $24K richer (ok less $2K travel & coin cost).

Colquhoun

<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?

there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce...

i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
hits. >>



I don't think they thought the Chinese were as close as they are. I know they have travelled to China to investigate the problem. But as recently as Jan. they were saying the Chinese are a ways off from getting the textures right, and the hidden security meassures were working. I am sure something will be done now. And honestly not to be a kool-aid drinking apologist, we haven't seen them in hand.. they could be very poor fakes in hand.

UtahCoin

<< <i> And honestly not to be a kool-aid drinking apologist, we haven't seen them in hand.. they could be very poor fakes in hand. >>



Well, I had one of the fake NGC slabs in my hand and I could have passed it off to 90+% of the dealers at any given show. I have to assume the fake pcgs slab is as good.

291fifth

I wonder how many of these fakes are now working their way into the US coin market via the flea market circuit?

Colquhoun

Ouch, thats not good guess I was just being hopefull. This is very bad indeed.

fc

<< <i>

<< <i>i wonder why pcgs does not spend 10,000 and design a new slab
and release it immediately?

there are companies that excel in designing things that would be
hard to reproduce...

i guess the market has peaked and now in cruise control until a nuke
hits. >>



A new slab doesn't take care of the MILLIONS of old slabs out there.

Here's a scary scenario:

Joe Blow get in cahoots with Mr. Yongkun999 and has 12 pcgs (or ngc or anacs) slabbed xf40 Bust Dollars. Mr. Blow jets into Long Beach, Baltimore or F.U.N. and visits 12 small time dealers showing each one 1 or 2 coins with the "My grandfather's coin(s)" story. Mr. Blow says "granddad paid $2000 years ago and says I shouldn't take a penny less". Mr. Blow leaves the show within an hour $24K richer (ok less $2K travel & coin cost). >>



true. but the big money coins would quickly start getting into new slabs. any cross over attempts would get into new slabs. new submitted
coins would get into new slabs.

within a year or two these would be popping up just as frequently
as the new anacs slabs... if not more.

just allowing it to happen without showing progress in defeating them
could be disastrous.

Doogy

This whole thing shouldn't surprise anyone, the Chinese have been faking currency since way before the US was even a country; with great results

I wouldn't be concerned about an import ban, the actual export of a ton of our scarce/rare US and world coins going to rich collectors in China is also a concern. Sure, once purchased, they have a right to take them to their homes; but with the industrial economy booming over there, they are buying up a ton of rare US and world coins.

Goldbully

<< <i>At first glance, it looks real... but it's from China...

Ebay Link

Same Cert # sold at Heritage in 2005
Heritage

eBay coin left and Heritage right:

>>



pcgs69, have you emailed PCGS about this problem???

braddick

Interesting thread I started, ATS, last Dec. 26th.

Some useful information inclosed within.