1955 Topps Roberto Clemente PSA 8; Fraud To The Nth Degree!!
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
So annmarie143 "sold" a 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente PSA 8 for $5,100.05 here:
1955 Topps Roberto Clemente PSA 8
A great deal if you ask me if it were a legitimate auction. Of course, the auction contained a VERY POOR picture of the card, pictured below:
So now, the Clemente is back up on ebay here:
Second Auction For Clemente PSA 8
But now there is a "better" picture of the card. Unfortunately, the card pictured looks like it would be lucky to get a PSA 5 or PSA 6, much less a PSA 8. Even worse, take a close look at the PSA label. I truly believe that label has been altered, manufactured, call it whatever you want. Below the first picture is a picture of the second auction. Compare that label to other labels I found on ebay and other sites, and you can see that something is up. The lettering on the PSA 8 looks like it is compacted/squished together.
/s/ JackWESQ
P.S. And, by the way, what is up with that top left corner? Is that corner screaming for a PSA 5 at best?
1955 Topps Roberto Clemente PSA 8
A great deal if you ask me if it were a legitimate auction. Of course, the auction contained a VERY POOR picture of the card, pictured below:
So now, the Clemente is back up on ebay here:
Second Auction For Clemente PSA 8
But now there is a "better" picture of the card. Unfortunately, the card pictured looks like it would be lucky to get a PSA 5 or PSA 6, much less a PSA 8. Even worse, take a close look at the PSA label. I truly believe that label has been altered, manufactured, call it whatever you want. Below the first picture is a picture of the second auction. Compare that label to other labels I found on ebay and other sites, and you can see that something is up. The lettering on the PSA 8 looks like it is compacted/squished together.
/s/ JackWESQ
P.S. And, by the way, what is up with that top left corner? Is that corner screaming for a PSA 5 at best?
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Comments
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning
It will help you understand the difficulty of getting the fake
flips "perfect."
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
My guess is you pay and you get nothing, or some low-grade piece of crap.
She added scans, which clearly show that the card is a fake (its now at $2500).
The biggest red light, though, is that when you check her feedback, all her other sales have been of Beauty and the Beast DVD's. No history of selling sportscards at all.
Other card auctions by her currently running are the aforementioned Clemente RC and a T206 Cobb (flip looks legit on that one), as well as a huge lot of ungraded cards.
Based on the fact that the seller went out and added scans (which somebody who knew the cards were fakes would not do), I'm guessing that this is just a seller who runs a pawn shop or antique store and knows very little about sportscards, not someone knowingly selling fakes.
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Experienced folks can do it easily. I can do it pretty well with just Quark.
BUT, I believe the suspected Mexican-based crew that has allegedly
been behind this series of scams is using either a high-school or college
student, who has not fully mastered the process.
<< <i>Unfortunately, the card pictured looks like it would be lucky to get a PSA 5 or PSA 6, much less a PSA 8. Even worse, take a close look at the PSA label. I truly believe that label has been altered, manufactured, call it whatever you want. >>
Good catch.... Very scary stuff......
And it wasn't just the Clemente but the Koufax (in same picture as the Clemente) and Mantle as well.
No way in heck are those a PSA 8 and 9, respectively.
And then there's the questionable T206 Cobbs and have some doubts on his '32 Carmel Berger
The font on the PSA label has changed throughout the years. In my recent submission to PSA, the font is bolder. On some cards I sent in in late 2000, the NM-MT 8 label is that way, no space.
Wow - nice card - I blew it up a bit - that's like a 4?
Incredible.
mike
It has been going on for MONTHS. EBAY has
refused to do ANYTHING to stop it.
The Craigs List gang and the EBAY gang are
the SAME folks.
remember the next time a company takes responsibility will be the first time they take responsibility.
what jerks
<< <i>typical ebay never taking responsibilty.
remember the next time a company takes responsibility will be the first time they take responsibility.
what jerks >>
There are no free lunches. If Ebay ever 'takes responsibility' for this stuff they will just pass the costs associated with this more rigorous enforcement on to me and you. Do you want the average cost of one of your Ebay transactions to increase because some illiterate with 5K to blow decides to roll the dice with a seller who, up to this point, has peddled nothing but Disney DVD's?
This is the response I got:
what better of a scan would you like?
I told them that I would like to see the entire holder and could they sharpen the image - I told them not all 8s are created equal - since collectors buy the card not the holder.
mike
A while back i went there to see about an ebay card - and sure enough, after putting in the seriel numbers it came up.
did PSA stop doing that ?
<< <i>I'm not sure but isn't there a way to look up PSa cards on their web site ?
A while back i went there to see about an ebay card - and sure enough, after putting in the seriel numbers it came up.
did PSA stop doing that ? >>
The counterfeiters are using PSA numbers and making fake PSA labels. That's what makes it so dangerous. If you're not careful you can think you're getting a legit psa card but you're not.
<< <i>I'm not sure but isn't there a way to look up PSa cards on their web site ?
A while back i went there to see about an ebay card - and sure enough, after putting in the seriel numbers it came up.
did PSA stop doing that ? >>
If you're talking about cert verification of course - just enter the cert number here.
The problem is - that the flip is real or copied - but the rest isn't - either photoshop or the card has been removed and exchanged a la WIWAG.
Here's the cert information
ITEM INFORMATION
Year: 1955
Brand: TOPPS
Player: ROBERTO CLEMENTE
Variety: N/A
mike
Grade: 8
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Yup.
Emphasis on the word "soon," as in "IMMEDIATELY."
Whatever it costs, it MUST be done NOW.
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Not everybody "shouted" you down.
My position has always been that if a security scheme
can be implemented, it should be. I am just not certain
how/what to do.
Now, the situation has gotten out of hand, and it threatens
the integrity of the brand. Perhaps a plastic flip with a
readable mag-strip is the answer. It really is NOT my job
to come up with a fix. PAS needs to do it and do it fast.
I have every confidence that they will solve the problem
quickly.
REPLY: "Report all you want, it is a psa 8"
I noticed the auction had been ended and the bidders removed. Just as the Mantle was ended. But now I see the mantle relisted with the seller stating that with all the questions about the card that they went out and got a "NEW Scanner" and asked for donations for it.
That Mantle PSA 9 is back up.
1956 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 9
I mean what's not to love about this seller?! You got to love this quote:
"Because of many questions, I went out and purchased a scanner today so you all can have a better Look at this great card! I hope the winner is willing to donate to the scanner fund!!"
Wants to rob me of $10,000.00+ AND fund her fraudulent activities. Geez.
/s/ JackWESQ
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Reminds me of the first WTC bombers, who got busted trying
to get the deposit back on the Ryder truck they blew up.
Financial terrorists deserve the same fate as crazy-bombers.
<< <i>"Just like the treasury department changed the currency to help thwart counterfeiters, PSA needs to look at doing something better to help thwart scammers and counterfeiters. Not needed on slabbed commons but on expensive cards...something better, MUCH better needs to be done...and soon. "
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Yup.
Emphasis on the word "soon," as in "IMMEDIATELY."
Whatever it costs, it MUST be done NOW. >>
Frankly, I've always been surprised this didn't occur from the start. I mean using the same slab for a $5 card as a $50,000 card? That really makes no sense whatsoever in my opinion. Even if a "special holder" for the expensive cards would cost more money, I think someone with an expensive card would most definitely prefer that.
-
A thread titled "xxx auction is a scam" would suffice. Anything further is a waste of time.
<< <i>Why do you guys continue to entertain these exercises in futility is beyond me. Day after day, these boards fill up with '52 Mantle scams, fake PSA slabs, T206 Wagner reprints, and other such obvious crap that is plainly scam artist material. Yet, you all continue to email the scam artist sellers trying to catch them in some kind of trap where they will admit what they're doing. Has any one of these clown bastarrds ever once admitted to their scam?
A thread titled "xxx auction is a scam" would suffice. Anything further is a waste of time. >>
As Paul Newman said in the movie Cool Hand Luke when asked why did you go around busting parking meters? Luke replied, "It was something to do." LOL
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>CDs - there were some guys who bought the fake PSA cards from craigslist, thinking they were real, and then offered them on ebay, still thinking they were real. One Net54 poster was taken in this way.
Nick >>
"thinking they were real" - I dunno about that...me believes most times it was to get rid of something they themselves got taken on. I mean once the item is in hand, it's not that difficult to know it's a fake...but not always easy to spot from a scan off ebay. My feeling is the scammed most likely wanted to pass off their misfortune to somebody else so as to not take a monetary loss. Sure, they can say otherwise...but for the most part I wouldn't believe it.
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<< <i>The Clemente is gone. However, the 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 9 is still up here:
1956 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 9
I mean what's not to love about this seller?! You got to love this quote:
"Because of many questions, I went out and purchased a scanner today so you all can have a better Look at this great card! I hope the winner is willing to donate to the scanner fund!!"
Wants to rob me of $10,000.00+ AND fund her fraudulent activities. Geez.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Are PSA labels that off-center? Take a look on the bottom right picture on the listing.
<< <i>Why do you guys continue to entertain these exercises in futility is beyond me. Day after day, these boards fill up with '52 Mantle scams, fake PSA slabs, T206 Wagner reprints, and other such obvious crap that is plainly scam artist material. Yet, you all continue to email the scam artist sellers trying to catch them in some kind of trap where they will admit what they're doing. Has any one of these clown bastarrds ever once admitted to their scam?
A thread titled "xxx auction is a scam" would suffice. Anything further is a waste of time. >>
Come on Lee everyone gets to personally select what you call acts of futility.
To be honest, many think playing poker for money is an act of futility.
Some of the best players admit that they have spent thousands in tournaments and come up with zilch. Heck, Mike Matusow admitted losing his entire "main event" winnings playing on-line.
Everyone has their own personal brand of entertainment.
mike
They dont want to take any responsibilty of getting the FBI or postal inspectors involved, but they would of course accept a bailout from the govt. if offered. Correct...
They have gotten very smug in their attitude towards the marketplace.
<< <i>are PSA serial numbers in order of submission? In other words, the higher the serial number, the sooner it was graded, the lower the serial number, the more further back in time it was graded? >>
No - doesn't seem to be any exact system that anybody has figured out.
Before some of you start jumping down my throat, let me explain...
Let's assume as fact that these boards are read by people that have a significantly elevated understanding of grading and the marketplace. Can we agree on that? Well, if we agree on that, take a look at how many STILL don't understand what the heck is going on!!! Now, if people that have advanced knowledge are confused, do you really think the average Joe that plans on spending a chunk on a piece of cardboard, but doesn't know his elbow from his balloon knot, will have any idea what to look for? Do you think he would be informed if PSA or other grading services had additional security added to their holders. Security measures that can easily be bypassed with a simple graphics editting program.
Now for the real world slap in the face . . . There isn't too much ANYONE is going to do to stop the scammers. Aside from eBay pulling their auctions and accounts or the FBI investigating (fat chance unless they get really bored), the scammers will continue to PhotoShop their way around any security measure they need to. The scam will continue as long images can be altered and serial numbers can be created that will match up with PSA's database. Being able to identify bogus fonts (and how many collectors would really know the difference), obviously overgraded cards, or conspicuous changes in sales patterns of the seller will help some of us, but if the scammers spent a little time and made a few smart moves, they could really make a killing, but I won't elaborate as it might give others an idea or two.
It is a very ugly situation and sitting around in a circle jerk crying for someone to correct the problem isn't going to solve anything. I mean even if PSA changed the holder, added holograms, and modified their font and reworked their filp, do you really think that will stop the scammers?
Sorry to sound so negative, but this is the real world. This isn't something new. While it is more blatant, it's not too far removed from trimming cards . . . but we know that NONE of those exist in PSA holders, right?!?
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Security-Grade flips would help. Mag-Tape and a metalic HoloGram
would be a good step.
Just because it is difficult to make a process secure, is
not a good reason to avoid the effort.
Under the current conditions, folks who buy expensive cards
from a stranger are NOW putting themselves at risk.
PSA needs to act fast.
<< <i>"There isn't too much ANYONE is going to do to stop the scammers."
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Security-Grade flips would help. Mag-Tape and a metalic HoloGram
would be a good step.
Just because it is difficult to make a process secure, is
not a good reason to avoid the effort.
Under the current conditions, folks who buy expensive cards
from a stranger are NOW putting themselves at risk.
PSA needs to act fast. >>
I understand your concern and your suggestion, but as I stated, they do nothing to prevent the scamming that we are discussing. A scammer only needs to get your money and then send you the item. If they're smart, they're done and gone and the funds are not recoverable.
Your suggestions would be great for in person purchases and purchases where you have a return opportunity, but given decent image editting software and some basic information, a smart scammer can replicate or compensate for any of the security measures suggested when offering an item for sale or auction online.
I use this as a mock-up on a website that I've been building. It took only a few minutes and the card in question was actually a PSA 5. Imagine what someone with intentions of defrauding could do if I managed this in only a matter of minutes without any intention to defraud?!?!
<< <i>A quick example (assuming this card existed in a GEM MINT 10): >>
WOW,
As it goes for PSA? I thought about it.
Altering flips, making totally fake scans etc. - probably - PSA can do no more about this than the gun manufacturer can with respect to armed robbery.
This - unfortunatlely boils down to being careful about who one buys from on ebay.
If something looks too cheap - chances are it may bite ya in the ass?
mike