One immediate last thought is that if it was produced, but rejected as Davis notes too light for a penny, it is unlikely that a heavier piece struck for the same person/body/town etc was not made. A commission to produce tokens was likely to have been fulfilled by some identifiable token unless it was one of those made for "collectors" in which case you could be on a hiding to nothing. In the absence of a named person or business, a place name would be an alternative. Heaton Norris is a local HN in Manchester, and as a consumer of brown liquid, Hook Norton and its excellent beers springs to mind. Unfortunately it only started brewing in 1849.
A 1697y shilling with transposed shields of France & Ireland. Not particularly attractive, but quite an informative coin into the mindset of the mint workers and the technology of the time.
The die axis is 90 degrees. If you flip the coin as for a normally inverted die axis, the only shield in the correct position is that of France. So you can reasonably conclude that the person setting up the equipment aligned the French shield with the top of the bust when positioning the dies. You can also deduce that the dies were made having a spigot with a multiple of 4 sides.
Prior to this coin's appearance the only known example was in VF (ex-Jackson-Kent etc) and last sold at auction around 10 years ago for £2K which also raises questions how Spink arrived at their book price of £750 in fine given they are not aware of this piece.
According to Richard Doty's text on the Soho Mint, penny tokens for Annand Smith & Co. in Melbourne were the last tokens produced as the mint was closing down in 1849.
An 1811 5/6d bank token designed by Philp, ESC206?, Linecar & Stone 126?, Davis 37? I add the question marks to the references because I'm 99.9% certain that this is bronzed copper and not copper as per the references. Moreover, I'd say the colour of it is that found on Taylor's products which is a much redder and consistent colour than the lighter copper usually seen. Both L&S and ESC avoid any attempt to distinguish between original Soho pieces and restrikes, though both are documented to exist. Has anyone else got one of these that they feel is definitely bronzed which could eventually cast light on which are Soho coins and which are Taylor's?
While on the subject of large round lumps of metal, can anyone help with the edge numbers on Bonomi crowns. There were 2 examples in St. James's in June 2008 which both had T1 stamped on the edge, one in silver and the other in aluminium. The coin below is the Al example. Thomas stated there were 196 pieces struck of which 150 were silver (plus 2 for Victoria & the Prince of Wales) with the balance made up of other metals. I had assumed that the numbering started at 1 for each metal, but see that Linecar & Stone note an example in hard white metal ex Hornsby, Francis & Thorpe with T30 on the edge. This clearly doesn't fit in with my assumption if the metal isn't silver as the original documentation gives 150 silver, 10 each of tin, bronze, copper and aluminium and 6 gold. Does anyone have an example other than silver where they can read the edge number and which doesn't fit in with the above?
Charles Pye's halfpenny token issued in 1797. Pye was an engraver and avid token collector. In 1795 he published "Provincial Copper Coins or Tokens issued between the years 1787 and 1794." In that work, he plated 180 tokens excluding the many mules, counterfeits and specious pieces which he considered "a disgrace to the age we live in". If you're a bit of a purist like Pye, you might pick up the inexpensive 1975 reprint of his work.
I came across a desription of a copper example in the Nov. 18, 1987 Glendinning's auction (Lot 99-Plate II) . The edge was described as "plain and unnumbered". A white metal piece from the Paget collection (Lot 474G) was referenced as a "similar piece" but there was nothing specific about the edge.
Here's Conder Token I received a couple of months back. It's a halfpenny token, Warwickshire DH20, by Kempson.
I have collected U.S coins for many years, and then Civil War Tokens, but am now actively building a collection of 18th Century Conder Tokens, the coins that made the Industrial Revolution a whopping success. : )
I came across a desription of a copper example in the Nov. 18, 1987 Glendinning's auction (Lot 99-Plate II) . The edge was described as "plain and unnumbered". A white metal piece from the Paget collection (Lot 474G) was referenced as a "similar piece" but there was nothing specific about the edge.
Happy hunting! >>
Thanks, I've got no shortage of catalogues (a few thousand) or references as Linecar & Stone list a couple pages. I was actually trying to find examples in the flesh so to speak as the direct reading would eliminate potential catalogue errors.
Paget had 27 including probably most of the trial pieces, but only a handful had numbered edges. It therefore raises the question of what the numbers mean as there is clearly a quantity of un-numbered coins as they are specifically described so, e.g. were they requested by the original purchasers as proof of property, or were they numbered for Thomas's benefit as a customer reference? Obviously the latter would suggest that all should be numbered if this was the case. There's no logic apparent at the moment.
Nothing very special here, but at least they're new.
From 1953 Elizabeth 11 proof sets; getting tougher to find nice color examples but it's fun to try.
And Moon will you stop it with the Condor Tokens already!!?
As if I didn't have enough to squander the rent money on, every time you post one like that I start doing an Ebay search; can't find anything close to it and probably couldn't afford it if I did.
Seriously though; could you give me 3 or 4 dates and designs to look for that have the kind of design and eye appeal that the ones you post have?
No,no- the kids and the cat are all right honey. It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
As people tend to migrate towards larger pieces having as they do better detail, here's a couple at the other end of the spectrum. A pair of Henry VIII halfpennies. Both coins are 11mm at the widest point and I think the level of detail is remarkable for something of this size. (Farthings are even smaller). The top one was struck at London with mintmark sunburst which has been suggested was implemented on the birth of the future Edward VI. A rare coin, but not quite as rare now as when Blunt & Whitton recorded only 3 known examples in their comprehensive study published in 1950. The lower one was struck at Canterbury under Archbishop William Warham sometime in the period from his appointment to the position in 1526 until 1532.
Comments
Something to do this winter when my wife and I are snowed in.
I do have some 350 Davis/Withers coppers, so it'll be a start.
Thanks again, Rob!
Proud (but humbled) "You Suck" Designee, February 2010.
The die axis is 90 degrees. If you flip the coin as for a normally inverted die axis, the only shield in the correct position is that of France. So you can reasonably conclude that the person setting up the equipment aligned the French shield with the top of the bust when positioning the dies. You can also deduce that the dies were made having a spigot with a multiple of 4 sides.
Prior to this coin's appearance the only known example was in VF (ex-Jackson-Kent etc) and last sold at auction around 10 years ago for £2K which also raises questions how Spink arrived at their book price of £750 in fine given they are not aware of this piece.
were the last tokens produced as the mint was closing down in 1849.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
This 40mm medal by J. Kirk (BHM #71) commemorates the capture of Belle Isle
by the British in 1761. George III had just turned 23 at the time.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Well, just Love coins, period.
Just call me "Thoroughly Modern Millie" :+)
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
Just showing off a wee Scottish piece from Fifeshire, just down the road a piece from the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews.
Of interest and curiosity to paranumismatists is the fact that this RRR token appears in both D&H and Davis, but was thrown out by Withers.
Best ~
Tom
Proud (but humbled) "You Suck" Designee, February 2010.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
I add the question marks to the references because I'm 99.9% certain that this is bronzed copper and not copper as per the references. Moreover, I'd say the colour of it is that found on Taylor's products which is a much redder and consistent colour than the lighter copper usually seen. Both L&S and ESC avoid any attempt to distinguish between original Soho pieces and restrikes, though both are documented to exist. Has anyone else got one of these that they feel is definitely bronzed which could eventually cast light on which are Soho coins and which are Taylor's?
While on the subject of large round lumps of metal, can anyone help with the edge numbers on Bonomi crowns. There were 2 examples in St. James's in June 2008 which both had T1 stamped on the edge, one in silver and the other in aluminium. The coin below is the Al example.
Thomas stated there were 196 pieces struck of which 150 were silver (plus 2 for Victoria & the Prince of Wales) with the balance made up of other metals. I had assumed that the numbering started at 1 for each metal, but see that Linecar & Stone note an example in hard white metal ex Hornsby, Francis & Thorpe with T30 on the edge. This clearly doesn't fit in with my assumption if the metal isn't silver as the original documentation gives 150 silver, 10 each of tin, bronze, copper and aluminium and 6 gold. Does anyone have an example other than silver where they can read the edge number and which doesn't fit in with the above?
Thanks in advance.
Proud (but humbled) "You Suck" Designee, February 2010.
"Provincial Copper Coins or Tokens issued between the years 1787 and 1794." In that work, he plated 180 tokens
excluding the many mules, counterfeits and specious pieces which he considered "a disgrace to the age we live in".
If you're a bit of a purist like Pye, you might pick up the inexpensive 1975 reprint of his work.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
I came across a desription of a copper example in the Nov. 18, 1987 Glendinning's auction (Lot 99-Plate II) .
The edge was described as "plain and unnumbered". A white metal piece from the Paget collection
(Lot 474G) was referenced as a "similar piece" but there was nothing specific about the edge.
Happy hunting!
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Here's Conder Token I received a couple of months back.
It's a halfpenny token, Warwickshire DH20, by Kempson.
I have collected U.S coins for many years, and then Civil War Tokens, but am now actively building a collection of 18th Century Conder Tokens, the coins that made the Industrial Revolution a whopping success. : )
<< <i>Re: Bonomi crowns
I came across a desription of a copper example in the Nov. 18, 1987 Glendinning's auction (Lot 99-Plate II) .
The edge was described as "plain and unnumbered". A white metal piece from the Paget collection
(Lot 474G) was referenced as a "similar piece" but there was nothing specific about the edge.
Happy hunting! >>
Thanks, I've got no shortage of catalogues (a few thousand) or references as Linecar & Stone list a couple pages. I was actually trying to find examples in the flesh so to speak as the direct reading would eliminate potential catalogue errors.
Paget had 27 including probably most of the trial pieces, but only a handful had numbered edges. It therefore raises the question of what the numbers mean as there is clearly a quantity of un-numbered coins as they are specifically described so, e.g. were they requested by the original purchasers as proof of property, or were they numbered for Thomas's benefit as a customer reference? Obviously the latter would suggest that all should be numbered if this was the case. There's no logic apparent at the moment.
Disband and award medals all around!
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Warwickshire 1, this one in brass. Minted in copper, white metal, and silver also.
Per D&H, the "female seated," with a child at her side, is giving alms to the "old Man," who is accompanied by a boy.
Proud (but humbled) "You Suck" Designee, February 2010.
From 1953 Elizabeth 11 proof sets; getting tougher to find nice color examples
but it's fun to try.
And Moon will you stop it with the Condor Tokens already!!?
As if I didn't have enough to squander the rent money on, every time you post one like
that I start doing an Ebay search; can't find anything close to it and probably couldn't afford
it if I did.
Seriously though; could you give me 3 or 4 dates and designs to look for that have the kind of
design and eye appeal that the ones you post have?
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
I just can't seem to locate any with that kind of appeal......
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
I really like the piece but have the same grade in a PCGS holder, so, uh, well,
sxxxxxg it on Xbay
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
Over all of these years, I have struggled to find these dates in decent grades. They exist, but always seem to elude.
The second one will probably get bounced for color, but it's worth a try.