1793 chain cent: authenticity problem

Johnny123 · February 14, 2008 9:51PM

Hi,

I have got one problem with my 1793 chain cent.
I got it back from ANACS today with the grade N8 and the comment: "ANACS is unable to positively determine the authenticity of this item".
Any thoughts what I can do now? I would like to sell the coin (maybe on Heritage), but of course, I need an authenticity proof.
Maybe the coin is too heavily corroded, so that ANACS cant proof it???
Thanks.

Barry · February 14, 2008 9:57PM

Call them up and ask them why they can't authenticate it. You can try NGC.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 14, 2008 9:58PM

You can submit it to PCGS, or NGC, or contact Heritage directly and see if they will accept the consignment (and submit it to one of the services on your behalf).

You could also post a picture here and see if any forum members can provide input on the coin (though I'd only recommend that if you have a fairly thick skin).

UtahCoin · February 14, 2008 9:59PM

Got a pic?

Johnny123 · February 14, 2008 10:45PM

Some pictures of my nice 1793 chain cent (hope so...)

:

1793a
1793b
1793c
1793d

I know, there is not much left, but I have thought that ANACS could even than clearly proof it by the remaining details.

BillJones · February 14, 2008 10:50PM

Given ANACS could not determine if the coin was genuine, I'm assuming that it is damaged or low grade. Under those circumstances I'd send it to NCS, which is the problem coin wing of NGC. If they determine that it's genuine, they will put it in an NCS slab, and the piece will become far more marketable.

I don't think that Heritage sells raw coins any more. If I'm wrong about that, they have many well-qualified people who should be able to make the call up or down on the piece. Still even if they said the coin was good, it would still have to go to NCS before they would or could sell it.

Edited to say I jost saw the pictures, and yes, NCS is now the only way to go if you want the coin authenticated. And I would be unable to pass judgement on that coin from pictures. It must be weighed, perhaps chemically tested and closely examined.

Johnny123 · February 14, 2008 10:58PM

@BillJones:

grade is N8, which means: "Non-eligible- wrong size for encapsulation, not something we grade, corrosion that is not PVC".

UtahCoin · February 14, 2008 11:41PM

Let's assume for a moment that it is a genuine Chain Cent. What would it be worth in that condition?

BillJones · February 14, 2008 11:45PM

<< Let's assume for a moment that it is a genuine Chain Cent. What would it be worth in that condition? >>

In the neighborhood of $2,000.

sinin1 · February 15, 2008 1:56PM

I feel ANACS could not convince themselves it was authentic

the big nicks and corrosion probably makes weight confirmation difficult

I do not feel PCGS would put that in a slab

NGC/NCS is next best bet

there are some major auction houses that sell mainly raw - if you can convince them it is authentic

how soon do you need the money?

a major show that you can attend would be another option

a few dealers would probably have an interest - and possibly could sell raw to an expert if they thought it was authentic

Coinosaurus · February 15, 2008 3:25PM

Wow. Sheldon might have extended to negative numbers for that one.

OK, time for all you P01 types to step up

Good luck with the authentication. NCS is definitely the next stop.

commoncents05 · February 15, 2008 3:30PM

I agree, try NCS.

-Paul

BECOKA · February 15, 2008 3:59PM

Considering a G8 went for over 10K today, I would keep pursuing authentication. Your best bet is probably NCS as the coin does look a bit damaged. Ask for authentication only not preservation.

Images:

numisma · February 15, 2008 8:01PM

<< Hi,

I have got one problem with my 1793 chain cent.
I got it back from ANACS today with the grade N8 and the comment: "ANACS is unable to positively determine the authenticity of this item".
Any thoughts what I can do now? I would like to sell the coin (maybe on Heritage), but of course, I need an authenticity proof.
Maybe the coin is too heavily corroded, so that ANACS cant proof it???
Thanks. >>

"ANACS is unable to positively determine the authenticity of this item"..............because they are lazy fools. Let me explain how this works. Grading companies work on an hourly rate. They will only spend a few minutes on each coin. Therefore, when faced with a coin that requires additional attention, they simply take the easy road: Body bag it. Disgraceful, really. Heck, it's not their coin and not their problem. They still get paid either way and, somehow, they can sleep at night. It is robbery.

Your coin appears to be fully authentic, although I would have to have it "in hand" to be certain. It is an S-2, R.4+ variety. This is the rarest of the four Chain Cent varieties. All of the diagnostics match completely, although it must be stated that deceptive copies can be made from genuine host coins. That's why personal inspection is required. In my experience, simulating such a state of degradation would take many years and unscrupulous people would not expend the energy to make such a counterfeit. That's a positive in this case. It is difficult to explain to most people, but the state of your coin would be very tedious to reproduce artificially. If you want more information, feel free to send me a pm.

sinin1 · February 15, 2008 11:31PM

I was also thinking the nicks were scratches

but looking closer, it looks like some of them were probably on the planchett

before striking

ColonialCoinUnion · February 16, 2008 12:18AM

<< "ANACS is unable to positively determine the authenticity of this item"..............because they are lazy fools. >>

Another possible explanation is that by slabbing a coin as authentic, the grading service is taking on the financial responsibility for that decision, and so if there is any doubt whatsover in their mind it is only good business for them to be conservative in their evaluations.

AnkurJ · February 16, 2008 12:41AM

<< 

<< Let's assume for a moment that it is a genuine Chain Cent. What would it be worth in that condition? >>

In the neighborhood of $2,000. >>

I disagree, I would say $1000 to $1500. It is far to corroded/damaged.

numisma · February 16, 2008 5:40AM

<< 

<< "ANACS is unable to positively determine the authenticity of this item"..............because they are lazy fools. >>

Another possible explanation is that by slabbing a coin as authentic, the grading service is taking on the financial responsibility for that decision, and so if there is any doubt whatsover in their mind it is only good business for them to be conservative in their evaluations. >>

Exactly. They are being lazy. It is not their coin, so by bagging it, they are not taking on any risk or responsibility, yet they still get paid for their "services." They just take the easy road. Maybe that's why ANACS is now going to focus on slabbing modern Mint material for TV promos. That's much easier. 69, 69, 69, 69, 69, 69, 69, 70, 69, 69, 69, 69, 69, 70........

pb2y · February 16, 2008 12:55PM

This Chain Cent was attributed as an S-4 with
only a trace of relief and legend. But, as already said,
the grading companies are taking no chances.

dorkkarl · February 17, 2008 9:19PM

this wear pattern is definitely not consistent w/ normal wear, but is consistent w/ intentional damage & "artificial wear". i'd approach this w/ the bias that it is fake

K S

mirabela · February 17, 2008 9:57PM

One thing I would look into is the location of the "COPY" stamp on the Gallery Mint repros of those coins. Is that area on your coin recessed? If so, that could be what you have.

As for that, though, I'd tend to agree with Dennis that it would be a royal PITA to reproduce this kind of degradation.

Good luck -- looks like a neat coin, one that I'd be happy to own the likes of provided it were real.

Johnny123 · February 17, 2008 11:42PM

Ok, I have looked at some pictures of copies.
The variety copies (have not found a S-2 R.4) have the "COPY" term between the last "A" of AMERICA and the "U" of UNITED.
This area is "problem-free" with my coin.

RBinTex · February 18, 2008 12:11AM

Looks real to me.

Net P1?

jonathanb · February 18, 2008 12:44AM

FWIW, I had a similar chain cent a few years ago (still pictured here). I sold it to the local dealer as-is with no hassles. It sounds like your main reason for authenticating it is so that you can sell it. Are you sure you can't sell it just the way you have it?

notwilight · February 18, 2008 1:00AM

The problem I have with your coin is the heavy hairlines which could be the indication of work with sandpaper before heavy chemical treatment. Looking at other cents from this area they are usually very smooth because they were often kept is leather pouches and may have spent long journeys on horseback. My guessis this is what ANACS didn't like. --Jerry

dorkkarl · February 18, 2008 1:09AM

<< One thing I would look into is the location of the "COPY" stamp on the Gallery Mint repros of those coins. Is that area on your coin recessed? If so, that could be what you have.

As for that, though, I'd tend to agree with Dennis that it would be a royal PITA to reproduce this kind of degradation.

Good luck -- looks like a neat coin, one that I'd be happy to own the likes of provided it were real. >>

this is not a g/m copy. it's a copy of a real coin

K S

1793 chain cent: authenticity problem

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