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BST issue

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    1image1
    imageDo not taunt Happy Fun Ball image
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    notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sounds like a bunch of human nature gone haywire. Nothing more. >>



    Well said. Once you decide you want something, say "I'll take it" and basicly log it into your collection it hurts to be told you can't have it. Doesn't excuse his overreaction but makes it understandable. --Jerry
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    << <i>

    << <i>I am the would be buyer.

    You guys are fast to jump to conclusions.

    This seller listed at a fixed price and has sold coins here before. She said it was for sale here only. I was the first to agree to buy the coin.

    Then the seller said the consignor did not want to sell....

    Then she implied she already had a buyer even though it was listed for sale here only.

    Maybe I overreacted but the buyer frankly seemed to me to be making up a story about this mystery consignor. >>



    Once there is an offer and an acceptance, there is an agreement. You made the offer to purchase and the seller did not accept ergo, no deal. I can appreciate the disappointment but there is no enforceable agreement under these facts. >>



    But when an item is posted for sale, either on the BST, eBay, or in the retail store, or anywhere else for that matter, isn't there an implied contract stating that the seller will sell to the first buyer who is willing to pay the price? Or if the item is no longer for sale for whatever reason, the item should be withdrawn as quickly as possible?
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    OldnewbieOldnewbie Posts: 1,425 ✭✭
    All the attorneys and pseudo attorney replies are giving me the willies.
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    drwstr123drwstr123 Posts: 7,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "But when an item is posted for sale, either on the BST, eBay, or in the retail store, or anywhere else for that matter, isn't there an implied contract stating that the seller will sell to the first buyer who is willing to pay the price? Or if the item is no longer for sale for whatever reason, the item should be withdrawn as quickly as possible?"





    no
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,802 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>All the attorneys and pseudo attorney replies are giving me the willies. >>



    I just asked my wife about this case, and she scoffed, "Where is the detrimental reliance? Did the buyer sell his house or soemthing to buy the coin?"
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    << <i>I recently listed a bust half in an ANACS holder on the BST forum. An ederly gentleman I deal with asked me to sell it for him, and I agreed. I listed it, and later received a call from him asking me if I had completed the sale. I indicated that I had not, and he asked that I please do not sell the coin. I logged on to PCGS to pull the listing and to notify one person who expressed interest that the coin was no longer for sale.

    In the time that had lapsed I received a PM that said "I'll take the bust half, is paypal okay"

    I responded by saying:
    Hi ------
    Unfortunately the gentleman I was selling the coin for has decided not to sell. I apologize for this, and thank you for the interest.

    I then receive the following 2 PM's:
    I guess I don't understand. You offered the coin with no strings attached, certainly you said nothing about a consignor with cold feet. I agreed to your price without any quibbling and offered to pay any way you want, check, money order, or Paypal. It seems to me you're obliged to sell this coin. I don't see where it is OK to offer a coin for sale here only at a fixed price, get an agreement to your price and then have you back out. A similar looking NGC AU58 just sold on eBay for $383. To me the issue here is not money, maybe it's a good deal, maybe not. But, in coins, the principle is that you are bound by and live by your word.


    Next PM:
    Unless you either complete this sale or come up with a more earnest story, I am going to pursue my remedies with the BST Moderator at PCGS. I don't know what really happened here but in the real world, you would be sued. I feel as if I am being told a made up story.

    Is it me, or is this absurd? In the real world even had the gentleman decided not to sell, I would have no obligation to sell anyway. But then again perhaps I am off base here? >>



    Wouldn't it have been just much simpler to state that the item was "no longer for sale" and to express thanks?
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    BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>All the attorneys and pseudo attorney replies are giving me the willies. >>



    I just asked my wife about this case, and she scoffed, "Where is the detrimental reliance? Did the buyer sell his house or soemthing to buy the coin?" >>



    "Detrimental reliance"... Now, that is just sexy talk image

    Much ado about nothing... "The fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so low" image
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    BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    All this kinda makes one want to check

    with an attorney before flushing a toilet.image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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    ajiaajia Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭
    Been there, done that.

    When is a Deal a Deal?

    Things haven't changed much in 3+ years.
    I understand the frustration, but in a few days jamesfsm, you'll have moved on.

    Now, back to our original programming......
    image
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    stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm always amazed that folks that act like big binness, when something goes wrong they come to the forum to whine. I'm also amazed that so many folks
    make blood and guts over getting a friggin coin. I almost found myself doing that long ago and thought if I was going to be/feel like that it's time to get out.

    Here is what I do these days when a coin I wanted or was offered to me goes somewhere else. This includes when a dealer has called me on the phone, or emailed offering me a coin. I get back with them within a couple hours and it was sold to the first person that waived the $$$$ in their face although they offered it to me and should have waited for my response. Oh yeah, here is what I tell them now......... No problem, thanks for the help saving my $$$$$$. EOM.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
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    After a while on the bourse, or in the chatroom (or most anywhere else in life) you get a good sense of the people you really don't wish to interact with. So I don't.
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    YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220
    Send him a token. Walk the streets of New York and find a Rat chop his head off, wrap it gently in a plastic baggie, then put a small note attach to the bag.

    (Write, go to your local video store and rent "The Godfather" and if you don't understand how to back off!!! after watching that flim maybe the next head in a bag will be yours).

    You Funking Coc Roach!!image
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    DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How about the reverse scenario?

    I posted a $50 coin on the BST forum about 1/2 a year ago and I was contacted by a forum member who decided to buy it. We agreed and I sent him my address. Well, I never received payment!! Nothing, no check, no email, nothing. So I decided to let it rest. What am I supposed to do? Cry about it? Sue him? I don't think so. Sometimes these things happen and you just let it go. Life is too short to worry about these things.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My feeling isc the same as Bears.

    Coin is offered at a fixed price.

    Offer accepted.

    Contract.

    If it is subject to prior sale, a consignor who may get cold feet or somethiing else you say so. >>



    I now notice that the OP had edited his BST post. Although I now agree that technically a contract was made, "jamesfan's" PM threating litigation was in poor form, the OP's bad courtesy for posting it notwithstanding.

    However consider this -- the OP could have lied to "jamesfan" and said he contracted with someone else, and that would have been it. Instead he told the truth, saying the consignor no longer wanted to sell it, before the consignor was aware of jamesfan's acceptance. Even though the OP did not disclose the coin was consigned (he probably did not think to do so, and was not trying to mislead anyone), I think a reasonable person would have let it slide, instead of using the "L" word.
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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the time that had lapsed I received a PM that said "I'll take the bust half, is paypal okay"

    Okay, here's what you didn't say: "Cool, let's finalize this deal."

    This guy is wrong, and you should let us know who it is that feels he can push people around like this. (Added, oh, ic - read on....)

    Added: "detrimental reliance". Sounds like a tort to me! I like that.image

    "But when an item is posted for sale, either on the BST, eBay, or in the retail store, or anywhere else for that matter, isn't there an implied contract stating that the seller will sell to the first buyer who is willing to pay the price? Or if the item is no longer for sale for whatever reason, the item should be withdrawn as quickly as possible?"

    If I go to the store and need to buy a size 4 for my fiancee', but they only have size 6's left but the sign still says "Sale", is the store obligated to send a buyer to NYC and get me one for the price they've got posted?

    Nope.

    Do I go to the department manager and try to get his sorry azz in trouble with the store manager?

    Now, how nice would that be? Not very. image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    In my humble opinion, the OP made one big mistake: he gave the prospective buyer too much information.

    He should have just said "I'm sorry but the coin is no longer available."

    That covers (1) already sold, (2) consignor pulled the coin, (3) seller changed his mind, (4) "I don't like you, you're a weenie", and a host of other possibilities.

    Nothing more need have been said. Giving more information invites argument.
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    bluelobsterbluelobster Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭
    I would not say it sounds like the OP handled it in the best possible way...HOWEVER, frivolous legal threats are indeed, AT BEST bad form and personally, I would avoid this prospective buyer like the plague.
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    HeywoodHeywood Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭
    Just to add

    the first person who puts "PM SENT" in a BST thread isn't necessarily the first person to contact the seller.

    But even if it were, there is no legal obligation to sell it to the first person to reply, (ethically maybe) and you would have no way of knowing if a seller would prefer to deal with someone else- maybe due to previous transactions, or board reputation.

    I would be up set if I replied- "I'll take, tell me where to send the money" and later found out it was withdrawn for sale, but my frustration would be at the missed opportunity for a nice coin, not at a seller.


    A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)



    An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor

    does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
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    BRdudeBRdude Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭
    If I got upset at everything I "just missed" on the BST, I'd have heart failure. I've had positive transactions with James, and he is a long time member. I have to say I disagree with him on this one though. Seller did nothing wrong. It just sucks to be a day late and a dollar shortimage It should be a "non-issue" JMHOimage
    AKA kokimoki
    the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
    Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms
    To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt
    [L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
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    << <i>

    "But when an item is posted for sale, either on the BST, eBay, or in the retail store, or anywhere else for that matter, isn't there an implied contract stating that the seller will sell to the first buyer who is willing to pay the price? Or if the item is no longer for sale for whatever reason, the item should be withdrawn as quickly as possible?"

    If I go to the store and need to buy a size 4 for my fiancee', but they only have size 6's left but the sign still says "Sale", is the store obligated to send a buyer to NYC and get me one for the price they've got posted?

    Nope.

    Do I go to the department manager and try to get his sorry azz in trouble with the store manager?

    Now, how nice would that be? Not very. image >>



    But if they did have the size 4, and it wasn't on hold or anything and it was still available, wouldn't they have to sell it to you then if you said "I'll take it"?

    Personally, I see the OP's point of view and the "potential buyer's" POV. I see nothing wrong factually with what the OP did. The OP told the buyer that the coin was no longer available. The buyer assumed to much in thinking the coin was still available.

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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>But if they did have the size 4, and it wasn't on hold or anything and it was still available, wouldn't they have to sell it to you then if you said "I'll take it"? >>

    "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

    Obviously there are limits to that, particularly if the reason was based on some "protected" attribute like race, gender, religion, et cetera, but in general a merchant can choose not to do business with anyone they please.
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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But if they did have the size 4, and it wasn't on hold or anything and it was still available, wouldn't they have to sell it to you then if you said "I'll take it"?

    Sure, but in this case - it was no longer available. Just because the potential buyer wants it to be available doesn't mean that it is.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    << <i>If I got upset at everything I "just missed" on the BST, I'd have heart failure. I've had positive transactions with James, and he is a long time member. I have to say I disagree with him on this one though. Seller did nothing wrong. It just sucks to be a day late and a dollar shortimage It should be a "non-issue" JMHOimage >>



    I think the issue here is not who got bummed. The situation at hand is more of a "comedy of errors" than anything else.

    The bigger issue concerns advertisements and offers. Does it make any difference if a price was posted, and if a price was posted, does that constitute an "offer to sell at that price" as opposed to a "request for offers"?
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    what????
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    what????

    Well said!
    Successful transactions with: DCarr, Meltdown, Notwilight, Loki, MMR, Musky1011, cohodk, claychaser, cheezhed, guitarwes, Hayden, USMoneyLover

    Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
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    image
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    Unless that deal is agreed to by both parties (all you did was receive a reply that it was wanted by a potential buyer, and you never confirmed the deal as done), there is no issue, but sour apples on the person that wanted it. It is no different than if that potential buyer said 'I want it, is Paypal ok?', and you informed him it was no longer available due to another person having gotten it. In this case, it WAS no longer available, as the owner decided not to part with it. We can ALL relate to seeing an example we want, in alot of cases, want it BADLY, but due to one reason or another, dont get it. This is simply one of those cases, he didnt get it. To threaten with ANY action because he/she didnt get it, I have visions of a little kid kicking and screaming and throwing a tantrum because he didnt get the candy he wanted at the store because mom said 'no'. Out him, so he can be ridiculed publicly for being the baby he is. How many of us have been disappointed by not getting a coin we really wanted that was within our grasp, but just out of reach?

    Now, if the shoe was on the other foot, and this potential buyer had a coin on the BST, and he had people PM'ing him wanting it, and the more he looked at it, decided NOT to sell, I am sure he wouldnt care who wanted it, nor who cried about it. Something is yours till you strike a deal, you accept payment for it, and ship it. Striking a deal, then backing out, thats a different story, but thats not what happened here.
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    BRdude, the more I read your post, the more I think 'couldnt be said any better'

    Would the person crying be crying if he was told 'sorry, someone beat you to it'?
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    57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭


    << <i>In my humble opinion, the OP made one big mistake: he gave the prospective buyer too much information.

    He should have just said "I'm sorry but the coin is no longer available."

    That covers (1) already sold, (2) consignor pulled the coin, (3) seller changed his mind, (4) "I don't like you, you're a weenie", and a host of other possibilities.

    Nothing more need have been said. Giving more information invites argument. >>



    lessons learned hopefully on both sides.
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    WorldTypeSetWorldTypeSet Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭
    People never cease to amaze me.
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    RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Based on my own past experience with jamesfsm, I'm not surprised at the way he flew off the handle.

    Russ, NCNE
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    image
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think we can all fly off the handle once in a while... now lets put this to rest!

    Time for a Happy Meal and some McLovin! image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    Usually people PM me asking if the coin is still available and that they would like it.

    He should have been a little smarter. There is no inventory checkout, it is entirely plausible the coin might not be available and you did not have a chance to update the BST.

    I don't remember seeing this person post on the boards before. If Russ is right an this guy is a lawyer, he should know better.
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    BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    OK, from here on out, no whining

    will be allowed on the Forum. Whimpering,

    however, will continue to be allowed ,as always.image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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    BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    There should be a law where you can't fight over a possible 50.00 loss----------------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow a Bear then a Tree... It's a Woodsy on here! image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    image

    image
    aka Dan
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    < I am the would be buyer.

    You guys are fast to jump to conclusions.

    This seller listed at a fixed price and has sold coins here before. She said it was for sale here only. I was the first to agree to buy the coin.

    Then the seller said the consignor did not want to sell....

    Then she implied she already had a buyer even though it was listed for sale here only.

    Maybe I overreacted but the buyer frankly seemed to me to be making up a story about this mystery consignor. >>




    I think you jumped to a conclusion.

    How do you know you were the first? For all you know 10 other persons PM'd the seller.

    I did not think she implied that.

    maybe you overreacted? lol, You are a mind reader too?

    Guys like you amaze me.


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    << <i>How about the reverse scenario?

    I posted a $50 coin on the BST forum about 1/2 a year ago and I was contacted by a forum member who decided to buy it. We agreed and I sent him my address. Well, I never received payment!! Nothing, no check, no email, nothing. So I decided to let it rest. What am I supposed to do? Cry about it? Sue him? I don't think so. Sometimes these things happen and you just let it go. Life is too short to worry about these things. >>




    same here, just recently. I don't care. Mine was bullion and I got more $$$ for it anyway.
    imageDo not taunt Happy Fun Ball image
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭

    It surprises me that Bear's words of wisdom are not being heeded.

    That is because Bear thought the seller agreed to sell, re read his post AFTER that one.

    Steve


    Good for you.
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    dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭
    I'm responding in regards to publicly posting PMs. I can understand not posting just ANY PM. They are supposed to be private, that makes sense. But when a person PMs you with an obscene message, or, as in this case, with stupid accusations and threats, then I believe that PM SHOULD be posted. It needs to be posted as a warning to others not to deal with people who aren't quite all there.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
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    19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,503 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It needs to be posted as a warning to others not to deal with people who aren't quite all there. >>



    Or folks that like to be pushy behind the scenes as this person was.

    push push push push push!

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
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    Can someone post footnotes? Please.
    image
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    << <i>It surprises me that Bear's words of wisdom are not being heeded.

    That is because Bear thought the seller agreed to sell, re read his post AFTER that one.

    Steve >>



    Which post are you referring to?
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    jfoot13jfoot13 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭
    150 posts because somebody didn't get a BST lot .... sprinkling holy water on this thread didn't work... how about driving a wooden stake through it's heart
    If you can't swim you better stay in the boat.......
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Mike I was referring to Bear's post right after his devil advocates one.


    Bear
    Wise Old Bear




    Tuesday February 12, 2008 11:20 PM (NEW!)


    I was under the impression

    that a price was stated

    and accepted?


    ///////////////////////////////

    Which he said right after someone mentioned that to him that, that was not the case.
    Good for you.
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    Raybob15239Raybob15239 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
    He made an offer to purchase. You did not accept. No contract. Just like when you go to BestBuy with their ad in hand and demand that they sell you the 42" Flat Screen for $1.200 that is not in stock, cuz its in the ad. The ad, or in your case, the listing, is an invitation intended to solicit offers, not an offer itself, therefor, his statement does not constitute acceptance, but rather a mere offer.

    Successful B/S/T transactions: As Seller: PascoWA (June 2008); MsMorrisine (April 2009); ECHOES (July 2009) As Buyer: bfjohnson (July 2008); robkool (Dec 2010); itsnotjustme (Dec 2010) TwoSides2aCoin (Dec 2018) PrivateCoin Jan 2019

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