Tigers and the HOF
markj111
Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Did you know that Darrell Evans has a higher career OBP that Rice? He also had a much longer career.
From the Hardball site:
The Hardball Times
Striped delight
by John Brattain
January 11, 2008
It’s as good a time as any for this (no, I’m not quitting THT so put that champagne back).
To begin with, a little background—my fandom has led me to rooting interests in both leagues. I was in kindergarten (best five years of my life) when the Expos were born and they became my NL team. Just recently, I’ve picked a new team in the senior circuit to follow—the Phillies. As my readers (both of you) know, I’ve been a Blue Jays fan since their inception.
However, as you probably have never wondered, I did have an AL team pre-1977—the Detroit Tigers.
I maintain a soft spot for the Tabbies and took regular pilgrimages to the corner of Michigan and Trumbull until it was abandoned for … that other place. I still pull for them when they’re not playing the Jays. Their recent resurgence under Dave Dombrowski is well deserved for their fans. They suffered much, especially under Randy Smith’s stewardship (hello to Alex Dureich, a friend and eloquent critic of Smith‘s work) and it’s nice to see them among the AL elite. I would have preferred Miguel Cabrera to come to Canada; nevertheless, Motown will suffice.
At any rate, it’s like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. "Give me five bees for a quarter," you’d say.
Now, where were we? Oh yeah—the important thing was that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those…
Sorry, I’m rambling; it’s time to get to the point.
With the Hall of Fame vote concluded for this year, once again I was amazed that no member of the mid-'80s Tigers was voted into Cooperstown. The 1984 club was a thing of beauty. The Tigers had five players who could make a decent argument for induction. I’m not saying all five belong. I am stating, however, that at least two absolutely should be inducted.
Let’s review our "fab five" and see why they have decent cases. They are Jack Morris, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Lance Parrish and Darrell Evans.
Jack Morris
Morris, in my opinion, was better than the sabermetric group says he was; by the same token, he wasn’t as good as the traditional stats crowd opines, either. There’s been some debate over at Baseball Think Factory as to whether the only reason Morris is in the picture is Game Seven of the 1991 World Series. At the time he was active, Morris was widely viewed as an ace pitcher. I remember several times folks speculating whether he was on a Hall of Fame trajectory.
It’s not just 1991.
Using the BBWAA’s general methodology (read: traditional stats) Morris looks promising. For starters, his 254-186 record, three 20-win seasons and durability (175 complete games) are impressive. From 1979-1992 Morris is first in innings pitched (by more than 500 innings), games started (32 more than anybody else), and complete games (62 more than No. 2 Fernando Valenzuela). Simply put, he was indisputably the premier workhorse in MLB—nobody took the ball more often and went deeper into games than Morris.
While many have debunked the myth of his ability to pitch to the score, the right hander did rise to the occasion in big games. While some hold the 1992 postseason against him, it looked very much that it wasn’t a matter of him not coming through so much as he was through. After a complete game loss in the first game of the 1992 ALCS, Morris pitched 308 innings more with an ERA of 6.08 and was finished. Up to that point (end of Game One of the ‘92 ALCS), in pennant races and postseasons, he tossed 322.2 very high-leverage innings while posting a 2.98 ERA.
He might make it via the Veterans Committee. He wouldn’t be the worst pitcher in the Hall and not a wholly unreasonable selection (from a traditional stats point of view)—but that’s hardly an endorsement.
Lance Parrish
The following catchers have hit 300 or more home runs: Mike Piazza, Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk and Parrish. Stop and think about it—in major league history, only six backstops have topped 300. Save for Piazza (who is a mortal lock) only Parrish is not in the Hall.
Only Piazza had fewer at-bats than Parrish in reaching the 300 milestone. He was a solid defender who copped three Gold Gloves and was an eight-time All-Star. He played superbly in his only postseason appearance and has a World Series ring. For a dozen seasons (1979-1990), Parrish batted .259/.319/.451. That may not seem impressive until you consider that .248/.311/.372 was average for the position. On top of that, a league-average batter hit 143 homers over those 12 seasons and an average backstop weighed in at 133 four-baggers. Lance Parrish went yard 268 times from 1979-1990.
I find it odd that he didn’t do better in Hall of Fame voting. Good-fielding catchers with that kind of thump have been scarce in major league history. He may fare better with the Veterans Committee, but I feel strongly that he should be in line behind Bill Freehan (11-time All-Star, five Gold Gloves). In the final two years of the pitcher’s era of the 1960s, league average for a catcher was .224/.293/.325 and Freehan batted .272/.377/.450 with 95 extra-base hits (45 HR). He's an overlooked star that one day I’ll devote more time to lobbying in his behalf.
Darrell Evans
Okay, to open, I really don’t think he has a good case but I want to make a point regarding probable 2009 inductee Jim Rice:
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI GIDP RCAA
Evans .248 .361 .431 1344 2223 329 36 414 1354 133 301
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 315 270
Obviously, Rice had a better career but the distance between him and Evans isn’t that large. If Jim Rice goes in next year, then Evans' case suddenly becomes viable. After all, third base is higher on the defensive spectrum than left field. Now what do you say about a third sacker who was almost as valuable offensively as a Hall of Fame left fielder?
See where this could end up? If Rice goes in then what about “Dewey” Evans—does he deserve induction? Not only did he play a more important defensive position, he copped eight Gold Gloves while doing so. Personally, I feel that Rice wasn't even the best outfielder on his own team.
Player Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS+ RCAA GIDP
Evans 1470 2446 483 73 385 1384 .275 .372 .481 127 374 192
Rice 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 .298 .352 .502 128 270 315
Yeah, I’m a little steamed over Tim Raines and Andre Dawson falling short—the point stands, though. If Rice makes it, then a lot of guys suddenly become candidates.
Moving on…now for the "no-brainers:"
Alan Trammell
It’s hard not to make a case that Trammell is among the top five shortstops in American League history. Trammell is (in AL history at his position) third in extra base hits/total bases, fourth in hits/doubles/reaching base, fifth in HR/RBI, sixth in runs, seventh in total bases. He was a six-time All-Star in the era of Cal Ripken, won four Gold Gloves and was robbed of the 1987 MVP. And, in about the same number of at-bats, he grounded into half as many double plays as Jim Rice (sorry—well not really, they’re on the same ballot). Since I’m ragging on Rice, let’s toss this in:
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI RP* GIDP
Trammell .285 .352 .415 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 2049 156
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 2318 315
*Runs Produced—hey, the BBWAA uses this stat.
When you consider that they were contemporary players, does it make sense that the spread between a probable Hall of Fame left fielder and a Gold Glove shortstop is that narrow? Is it logical that the left fielder garnered 293 more votes than the shortstop?
Lou Whitaker
Were you aware that Bill Mazeroski never had a single year in 17 seasons where he was better than league average offensively? He is a Hall of Fame second baseman. After a 32-AB cup of coffee as a 20-year old in 1977, Whitaker played 18 seasons and was better than league average offensively in all but one of them. Yes, Dazzlin’ Maz was historically great defensively, but Whitaker was no slouch himself, copping three Gold Gloves. Whitaker’s three awards came in the middle of the era of another amazing gloveman—the K.C. Royals' Frank White, who is often compared to Mazeroski.
From 1969-1999, Lou Whitaker, among major league second sackers, is first in hits, doubles, extra base hits, RBI and total bases. He is second in runs, home runs and reaching base and third in three-base hits, walks and RCAA. Simply put, he has a case in determining the best second baseman of his particular era—or at the very least, best in the AL. He is eclipsed somewhat in the high-octane offensive levels after the strike, but the years under consideration include four seasons of the "juiced" era.
Heck, while we're at it...
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI RP* GIDP
Whitaker .276 .363 .426 1386 2369 420 65 244 1084 2226 143
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 2318 315
He's even closer to Rice than Trammell is (with about a half season's worth more AB) and Whitaker didn't last a year on the freakin' ballot. While neither were high percentage base thieves (Sweet Lou stole at a slightly higher success rate), Whitaker stole almost 90 more bases.
I didn’t spend much bandwidth making the case for Trammell and Whitaker because it should be self-evident to the BBWAA. All you have to do is touch on the highlights and it becomes clear that they are overqualified for the Hall. There should be a much wider gap between an unremarkable defensive left fielder in the Hall of Fame and a Gold Glove second baseman—especially since they're contemporary players.
Quite frankly, it will be an absolute joke—one so bad that even I can't top it, a travesty, an example of one of the severest case of rectal-cranial inversion in BBWAA history—if Rice is inducted before Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker. Frankie Frisch was downright King Solomon-esque on the Veterans Committee compared to this level of sheer boneheadedness.
I hope that if the BBWAA continues to miss badly on the '80s era Tigers the Vets Committee will rectify the oversight … at least as far as that magnificent keystone combination went.
References and Resources
Am I the only one who thinks it would be incredibly awesome if they were inducted together and shared a plaque?
Tune in every Wednesday at 4:40 PM EST on ESPN 1450's The Mike Gill Show where I'm a weekly guest. For a distinctive Canadian flavour you can read my coverage of the Toronto Blue Jays (as well as other baseball matters) at Sympatico/MSN Sports. Also be sure to check out baseball’s hottest blog as mentioned by the voices inside my head: The Progenitor of Severe Gluteal Discomfort. Please forward all flames, complaints, whining, accusations about my mother, inferences of habouring an Oedipus complex, demands to engage in coprophagy before shuffling off this mortal coil, and anatomically impossible suggestions here.
From the Hardball site:
The Hardball Times
Striped delight
by John Brattain
January 11, 2008
It’s as good a time as any for this (no, I’m not quitting THT so put that champagne back).
To begin with, a little background—my fandom has led me to rooting interests in both leagues. I was in kindergarten (best five years of my life) when the Expos were born and they became my NL team. Just recently, I’ve picked a new team in the senior circuit to follow—the Phillies. As my readers (both of you) know, I’ve been a Blue Jays fan since their inception.
However, as you probably have never wondered, I did have an AL team pre-1977—the Detroit Tigers.
I maintain a soft spot for the Tabbies and took regular pilgrimages to the corner of Michigan and Trumbull until it was abandoned for … that other place. I still pull for them when they’re not playing the Jays. Their recent resurgence under Dave Dombrowski is well deserved for their fans. They suffered much, especially under Randy Smith’s stewardship (hello to Alex Dureich, a friend and eloquent critic of Smith‘s work) and it’s nice to see them among the AL elite. I would have preferred Miguel Cabrera to come to Canada; nevertheless, Motown will suffice.
At any rate, it’s like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. "Give me five bees for a quarter," you’d say.
Now, where were we? Oh yeah—the important thing was that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those…
Sorry, I’m rambling; it’s time to get to the point.
With the Hall of Fame vote concluded for this year, once again I was amazed that no member of the mid-'80s Tigers was voted into Cooperstown. The 1984 club was a thing of beauty. The Tigers had five players who could make a decent argument for induction. I’m not saying all five belong. I am stating, however, that at least two absolutely should be inducted.
Let’s review our "fab five" and see why they have decent cases. They are Jack Morris, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Lance Parrish and Darrell Evans.
Jack Morris
Morris, in my opinion, was better than the sabermetric group says he was; by the same token, he wasn’t as good as the traditional stats crowd opines, either. There’s been some debate over at Baseball Think Factory as to whether the only reason Morris is in the picture is Game Seven of the 1991 World Series. At the time he was active, Morris was widely viewed as an ace pitcher. I remember several times folks speculating whether he was on a Hall of Fame trajectory.
It’s not just 1991.
Using the BBWAA’s general methodology (read: traditional stats) Morris looks promising. For starters, his 254-186 record, three 20-win seasons and durability (175 complete games) are impressive. From 1979-1992 Morris is first in innings pitched (by more than 500 innings), games started (32 more than anybody else), and complete games (62 more than No. 2 Fernando Valenzuela). Simply put, he was indisputably the premier workhorse in MLB—nobody took the ball more often and went deeper into games than Morris.
While many have debunked the myth of his ability to pitch to the score, the right hander did rise to the occasion in big games. While some hold the 1992 postseason against him, it looked very much that it wasn’t a matter of him not coming through so much as he was through. After a complete game loss in the first game of the 1992 ALCS, Morris pitched 308 innings more with an ERA of 6.08 and was finished. Up to that point (end of Game One of the ‘92 ALCS), in pennant races and postseasons, he tossed 322.2 very high-leverage innings while posting a 2.98 ERA.
He might make it via the Veterans Committee. He wouldn’t be the worst pitcher in the Hall and not a wholly unreasonable selection (from a traditional stats point of view)—but that’s hardly an endorsement.
Lance Parrish
The following catchers have hit 300 or more home runs: Mike Piazza, Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk and Parrish. Stop and think about it—in major league history, only six backstops have topped 300. Save for Piazza (who is a mortal lock) only Parrish is not in the Hall.
Only Piazza had fewer at-bats than Parrish in reaching the 300 milestone. He was a solid defender who copped three Gold Gloves and was an eight-time All-Star. He played superbly in his only postseason appearance and has a World Series ring. For a dozen seasons (1979-1990), Parrish batted .259/.319/.451. That may not seem impressive until you consider that .248/.311/.372 was average for the position. On top of that, a league-average batter hit 143 homers over those 12 seasons and an average backstop weighed in at 133 four-baggers. Lance Parrish went yard 268 times from 1979-1990.
I find it odd that he didn’t do better in Hall of Fame voting. Good-fielding catchers with that kind of thump have been scarce in major league history. He may fare better with the Veterans Committee, but I feel strongly that he should be in line behind Bill Freehan (11-time All-Star, five Gold Gloves). In the final two years of the pitcher’s era of the 1960s, league average for a catcher was .224/.293/.325 and Freehan batted .272/.377/.450 with 95 extra-base hits (45 HR). He's an overlooked star that one day I’ll devote more time to lobbying in his behalf.
Darrell Evans
Okay, to open, I really don’t think he has a good case but I want to make a point regarding probable 2009 inductee Jim Rice:
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI GIDP RCAA
Evans .248 .361 .431 1344 2223 329 36 414 1354 133 301
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 315 270
Obviously, Rice had a better career but the distance between him and Evans isn’t that large. If Jim Rice goes in next year, then Evans' case suddenly becomes viable. After all, third base is higher on the defensive spectrum than left field. Now what do you say about a third sacker who was almost as valuable offensively as a Hall of Fame left fielder?
See where this could end up? If Rice goes in then what about “Dewey” Evans—does he deserve induction? Not only did he play a more important defensive position, he copped eight Gold Gloves while doing so. Personally, I feel that Rice wasn't even the best outfielder on his own team.
Player Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS+ RCAA GIDP
Evans 1470 2446 483 73 385 1384 .275 .372 .481 127 374 192
Rice 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 .298 .352 .502 128 270 315
Yeah, I’m a little steamed over Tim Raines and Andre Dawson falling short—the point stands, though. If Rice makes it, then a lot of guys suddenly become candidates.
Moving on…now for the "no-brainers:"
Alan Trammell
It’s hard not to make a case that Trammell is among the top five shortstops in American League history. Trammell is (in AL history at his position) third in extra base hits/total bases, fourth in hits/doubles/reaching base, fifth in HR/RBI, sixth in runs, seventh in total bases. He was a six-time All-Star in the era of Cal Ripken, won four Gold Gloves and was robbed of the 1987 MVP. And, in about the same number of at-bats, he grounded into half as many double plays as Jim Rice (sorry—well not really, they’re on the same ballot). Since I’m ragging on Rice, let’s toss this in:
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI RP* GIDP
Trammell .285 .352 .415 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 2049 156
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 2318 315
*Runs Produced—hey, the BBWAA uses this stat.
When you consider that they were contemporary players, does it make sense that the spread between a probable Hall of Fame left fielder and a Gold Glove shortstop is that narrow? Is it logical that the left fielder garnered 293 more votes than the shortstop?
Lou Whitaker
Were you aware that Bill Mazeroski never had a single year in 17 seasons where he was better than league average offensively? He is a Hall of Fame second baseman. After a 32-AB cup of coffee as a 20-year old in 1977, Whitaker played 18 seasons and was better than league average offensively in all but one of them. Yes, Dazzlin’ Maz was historically great defensively, but Whitaker was no slouch himself, copping three Gold Gloves. Whitaker’s three awards came in the middle of the era of another amazing gloveman—the K.C. Royals' Frank White, who is often compared to Mazeroski.
From 1969-1999, Lou Whitaker, among major league second sackers, is first in hits, doubles, extra base hits, RBI and total bases. He is second in runs, home runs and reaching base and third in three-base hits, walks and RCAA. Simply put, he has a case in determining the best second baseman of his particular era—or at the very least, best in the AL. He is eclipsed somewhat in the high-octane offensive levels after the strike, but the years under consideration include four seasons of the "juiced" era.
Heck, while we're at it...
Player AVG OBP SLG Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI RP* GIDP
Whitaker .276 .363 .426 1386 2369 420 65 244 1084 2226 143
Rice .298 .352 .502 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 2318 315
He's even closer to Rice than Trammell is (with about a half season's worth more AB) and Whitaker didn't last a year on the freakin' ballot. While neither were high percentage base thieves (Sweet Lou stole at a slightly higher success rate), Whitaker stole almost 90 more bases.
I didn’t spend much bandwidth making the case for Trammell and Whitaker because it should be self-evident to the BBWAA. All you have to do is touch on the highlights and it becomes clear that they are overqualified for the Hall. There should be a much wider gap between an unremarkable defensive left fielder in the Hall of Fame and a Gold Glove second baseman—especially since they're contemporary players.
Quite frankly, it will be an absolute joke—one so bad that even I can't top it, a travesty, an example of one of the severest case of rectal-cranial inversion in BBWAA history—if Rice is inducted before Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker. Frankie Frisch was downright King Solomon-esque on the Veterans Committee compared to this level of sheer boneheadedness.
I hope that if the BBWAA continues to miss badly on the '80s era Tigers the Vets Committee will rectify the oversight … at least as far as that magnificent keystone combination went.
References and Resources
Am I the only one who thinks it would be incredibly awesome if they were inducted together and shared a plaque?
Tune in every Wednesday at 4:40 PM EST on ESPN 1450's The Mike Gill Show where I'm a weekly guest. For a distinctive Canadian flavour you can read my coverage of the Toronto Blue Jays (as well as other baseball matters) at Sympatico/MSN Sports. Also be sure to check out baseball’s hottest blog as mentioned by the voices inside my head: The Progenitor of Severe Gluteal Discomfort. Please forward all flames, complaints, whining, accusations about my mother, inferences of habouring an Oedipus complex, demands to engage in coprophagy before shuffling off this mortal coil, and anatomically impossible suggestions here.
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Comments
Joe
Joe
Steve
Forgive me for being dense, but I'm starting to get the impression that there must be a whole lot of Sabermatricians out there that don't think Jim Rice should be in the Hall of Fame. Someone should write an article about that . . .
<< <i>Isn't saying that "Morris was widely viewed as an ace pitcher" the equivalent to saying that Rice was a "feared hitter"? >>
Yes. And when those are the best arguements for why they deserve to be in the Hall-of-Fame, it's pretty easy to see why niether belong
Evans would be an ok choice, but hard to see him as a Tigers player when he played more and had better years with Atlanta and San Francisco. Though that is part of what keeps him underappreciated is that he had decent seasons with three teams, so people only saw him for a few years, rather than 10 or 15 or more like other good players
Does bring up the question of which franchise could put together the best team of non-Hall-of-Fame players
I will give him a point that the author makes, and agree. His number of innings pitched was excellent. Most sabermatricians measure vs. league average, but in the case of SP, league replacement is sometimes a better barometer.
What is the difference? League average simply measures him vs. a league average pitcher, while leage replacement measures him vs. a typical replacement level player had he been hurt, or simply not playing.
As in the case of Starting pitching, it is always hard to find a viable option, so even a guy who is slightly below league average will have good value to a team.
In 1990 his ERA was 4.51, which was below average. In terms of runs saved(baseball prospectus), he was negative 29...meaning he saved 29 less runs than the league average pitcher based on his number of innings pitched.
But, compared to a replacement pitcher he was +36 runs saved compared to what a replacement level pitcher would bring.
Knowing exactly what a replacement pitcher level is, is more hypothesis, but we all know for certain that it wouldn't be as good as the league average pitcher, or he would already have a job. So there is some hypothesis there.
For his career Morris saved 10 runs above a league average pitcher. This is the number sabermatricians view as him not being near Hall worthy.
BUT, for his career vs league replacement level he saved 959!
Lets put that into context. The following players will have their runs saved above average, and runs saved above replacement using baseball prospectus's own runs saved numbers(since they are authoring most the articles)...
Morris.....10 and 959
Saberha.261 and 889
Stieb......188 and 865
Guidry....192. and 790
Blyleven 348 and 1571
Nikero....275 and 1498
Sutton...156 and 1388
Seaver...450 and 1586
Carlton...275 and 1520
Perry.....290 and 1537
I will l let the reader decide how Morris fits in with the group. The only thing I will infer is that there is one guy on that list that is getting the biggest shaft in MLB history by the voters...and just goes to show that the voters need to do better homework. I am sure our readers can pick him out right away.
But also include that the teams those guys played on were good. The Tigers won more games in the 80s than any other team except the Yankees. The '84 team is considered by most to be one of the best teams ever by many. And when you add in that they were coached by a popular manager, I would think at least one of them would get in.