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McGwire nets 23% again

softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
It is obvious that Mark McGwire is being black balled from Hall consideration. 23 % of the vote again and its not going to get any better for him. I hope this continues with the rest of the lot .....

ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

Comments

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With the writers dealing with McGwire in this way I thought it would have meant Rice was in.
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am surprised too ... and their is NO DOUBT that the measly 14 votes he needed would have been a no brainer had he not been such a louse to the media in his hey day. As a matter of fact, I think he would have been in already.

    Now .... back to McGwire ..... thoughts? Come on now, this guy was a sure fire 1st ballot guy if it were not for the juice. What does this mean for the rest?

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dont think any of McGwires piers will get in anytime soon. IE: Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa, ect.. ect.. and unless Clemens can prove without a doubt that he is clean- forget it.
  • kuhlmannkuhlmann Posts: 3,326 ✭✭
    i think bonds gets in. comparing mcgwire and bonds...there really is no camparison. bonds was a shoe in before juice. mcgwire was just a home run hitter. bonds was a complete 5 tool player.

    even with the roid scandel i think bonds will get in.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i think bonds gets in. comparing mcgwire and bonds...there really is no camparison. bonds was a shoe in before juice. mcgwire was just a home run hitter. bonds was a complete 5 tool player.

    even with the roid scandel i think bonds will get in. >>




    I was thinking that but honestly if your going to hold a group accountable the right thing to do is include them all or none. IMO all of them or none of them..
  • thegemmintmanthegemmintman Posts: 3,101 ✭✭


    << <i>It is obvious that Mark McGwire is being black balled from Hall consideration. 23 % of the vote again and its not going to get any better for him. I hope this continues with the rest of the lot ..... >>





    image
  • jaxxrjaxxr Posts: 1,258 ✭✭
    McGwire just "another" HR hitter ???????????

    No one in the entire history of major league baseball, ever hit HRs with greater frequency per AB than Big Mac,
    his career HR ratio is the best, better than Ruth, better than Kiner, better than Bonds, better than anyone !!

    He is a twelve time all star, a Gold Glove winner at first basre, two time league leader in on base pct., he once set the single season HR record, he once set and still holds the all time single season rookie HR record.

    His HOF potential ? Who knows, tough to evaluate his particular situation. Never proved to have ever used illegal items, bur the public and hall voters might think otherwise. He and the other "suspects" are in a situation unlike anything ever before. Should the voters make moral judgemnts, should the stats speak for themselves, should guys like Big Mac get an asterik ?
    This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All anyone knows for certain is that Mark McGwire used androstenedione, which was a LEGAL, over-the-counter supplement. There is absolutely NOTHING anywhere, including the Mitchell Report, to show that he used anything else! I do not, and will not put any credence to anything Jose Canseco said or says, since he has a blatant agenda and has (IMHO) by far, the least credibility of anyone associated with the game!

    I for one, am absolutely sick and tired of all these holier-than-thou types who insist on convicting and sentencing people based on nothing but conjecture, hearsay and innuendo; and in so doing, are trampling and shredding the one document, the Constitution of the United States, that allows them to think, talk and act like idiots! image What ever happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? image

    We might as well bring back the Gestapo and KGB, since that's exactly how these people are acting! imageimage

    I just hope for their sake, that no one starts spreading rumors that they're rapists or something, since using their rationale, they should be taken out back and summarily shot!image

    Sorry for the rant, but after what's been going on, I have got to vent! imageimage

    Steve
  • fandangofandango Posts: 2,622 ✭


    << <i>i think bonds gets in. comparing mcgwire and bonds...there really is no camparison. bonds was a shoe in before juice. mcgwire was just a home run hitter. bonds was a complete 5 tool player.

    even with the roid scandel i think bonds will get in. >>



    no way, McGwire was loved, Bondz is hated....he will get less % than McGwire...
  • RCGuyRCGuy Posts: 161


    << <i>What ever happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? image


    Steve >>




    It's alive and well where it belongs...in the judicial court system.

    In the court of PUBLIC opinon, anything goes.

    OJ is "innocent" in the criminal judicial court system...but "guilty" in the court of public opinion. Do you have a problem with that also?
  • pb19991pb19991 Posts: 271
    I would like to echo the sentiments of SDSportsfan above. McGwire should be in , end of story. everyone including the national media hailed Mac and Sosa as the players who saved baseball but now they want to paly judge and jury. up to this moment in time no one has proven McGwire or for that matter Bonds ever used anything illegal. if you give the media and the U.S Senate enough time i'm sure they'll be able to ruin the game of baseball and make it a totally unenjoyable sport to watch. maybe when that happens and people are no longer interested in baseball some of these same sportswriters will get laid off due to lack of anything interesting to cover. I stuck with baseball thru the last strike which ended the season but if the whole game the Senate and the media is playing right now continue for much longer i may not be able to stand to watch anymore. which sport to the want to cripple next NFL? NBA? NHL? ???? PB
  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What ever happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? image


    Steve >>




    It's alive and well where it belongs...in the judicial court system.

    In the court of PUBLIC opinon, anything goes.

    OJ is "innocent" in the criminal judicial court system...but "guilty" in the court of public opinion. Do you have a problem with that also? >>





    OJ was found guilty in the civil trial, where a simple "preponderence of the evidence" was required, whereas in the criminal trial, guilt had to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". So yes, a court of law has found him guilty.

    In the cases of Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, et al, there is NO EVIDENCE (at least at this time) to show that they've done anything "illegal".


    Steve
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the cases of Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, et al, there is NO EVIDENCE (at least at this time) to show that they've done anything "illegal".

    image


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I cant tell you how many times I have come on here pretty much by myself and defended Barry Bonds "The Baseball Player" Everyone wanted this guy burned at the stake, now that this Mitchell report has come out and its painfully obvious that Barry put himself on a fair playing field with the majority of his piers, there is NO way that it would be right to assume that McGwire did not do roids. Proof? how about 70HR's? How about he saw this steroid/hgh nightmare coming so he got out of baseball... If he gets in then you better put Barry and the rest of these guys in. My 2 cents
  • AkbarCloneAkbarClone Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭
    Me and some of my peers once went fishing at some piers.
    I collect Vintage Cards, Commemorative Sets, and way too many vintage and modern player collections in Baseball (180 players), Football (175 players), and Basketball (87 players). Also have a Dallas Cowboy team collection.
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Steve --- sdsportsfan .... just WHO are you calling idiots? image If you want to sit there and conjure up thoughts of BIG Mac being a victim because most of us know better then have at it. I respect your passion for your stance but BEWARE of who you label as IDIOTS.

    With that said, the angle I believe in would label yourself as an IDIOT and quite possibly think you are frolicking in never never land to base your opinions on documented "proof"

    The guy hit 583 home runs. 23% of the vote in his SECOND year speaks volumes and to label this side as "idiots" and "holier then thou" is a tough road to climb. Perhaps even ignorant. image

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    These are the same writers who were saying how great he was and how he was saving baseball in 1998 when he hit 70 homeruns while using steroids?

    What has changed since then?
    Tom
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>These are the same writers who were saying how great he was and how he was saving baseball in 1998 when he hit 70 homeruns while using steroids?

    What has changed since then? >>



    My goodness, are you for real?

    1. In 1998 there was no steroid scandal .... just whispers
    2. Did you NOT watch Big Mac make a fool of himself alongside Palmeiro, etc in front of a congressional committee ?
    3. Mark has gone into complete hermit mode obviously because he feels great shame.
    4. The Cardinals have held off putting up a bronze statue of Mac because they know better too.
    5. You may own 100 PSA 10 1984 Topps Olympic cards
    6. Do I have to go on?

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • kuhlmannkuhlmann Posts: 3,326 ✭✭
    5. You may own 100 PSA 10 1984 Topps Olympic cards

    1985 dan image
  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    1 This was 10 years after Ben Johnson. These were heavily muscled professional athletes not subjected to any sort of test. To not think there was a chance some of them were using steroids would have been pure idiocy
    2 I only watched the highlights. Palmeiro lied. After peeing hot, he was suspended. McGwire exercised one of his basic human rights
    3 The hermit mode may have less to do with shame and more to do with not making a fool out of yourself like Clemens
    4 Lots of players without bronze statues have made the Hall-of-Fame
    5 I may have also paid $3 million for his 70th homerun ball
    6 no
    Tom
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fair enough Tom, lets agree to disagree. You think I am an idiot and I am convinced that you just popped out of the womb. You laugh at my thoughts and I won't stop laughing for a week after reading your last post.

    image

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    Glad we can laugh at it all

    And really, I only think the sports writers are idiots
    Tom
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>5. You may own 100 PSA 10 1984 Topps Olympic cards

    1985 dan image >>

    It was the 84 Olympics! My bad ....... indeed the 85 Topps issue. I once was a proud owner of several Mac minty cards .... not anymore.

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Glad we can laugh at it all

    And really, I only think the sports writers are idiots >>



    This type of debate brings out big time passion among baseball fans. No harm done! image

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • JackWESQJackWESQ Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
    I would love to see McGwire inducted into the HOF by the writers (notice I didn't say "get into the hall" - I'm tired of all those, "the only way [insert name] is going to get into the hall is by buying a ticket" statements), but I just can't see it happening. When it comes to steroids allegations and the HOF, the writers have every right to (and probably should) believe in guilty until proven innocent. I mean really, we're talking about the HOF (nothing more than a honor), not about whether to send Bonds, McGwire or Clemens to 30 years behind in hole. If McGwire wants to be inducted, he's going to have to "prove" his innocence. And given his disappearance into a black hole, I can't see that ever happening. Membership, if at all, will come only by way of the Veterans' Committee.

    /s/ JackWESQ

    P.S. But as an aside, if McGwire were somehow inducted, wouldn't it be something if he didn't show up? We assume the inductee will give a speech, but is there a requirement?
    image
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    actually Jack that is a good way to put it, if there is a black cloud over these guys then maybe they shouldn't be honored until they can provide some proof they didn't do this stuff. If they don't care about getting in the HOF then why whould we? McGwire and Clemens recently made comments that they don't care so why should the writers put them in when there is so much doubt about their careers?
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • gfbgfb Posts: 477
    I really don't know where everybody gets off on McGwire as some roid head, the man (boy really 23 at the time) jacked 49 dingers his first full year in the majors. Thats 1987 people, was he on the juice then? People get stronger as they age, have you ever been punched by a 40 year man? it hurts wwwaaayyyy more than the same punch from a 25 year old.

    He may have used body building supplements as a way to maintain mass/muscle strength as he got older, but it was all legal, OTC stuff, just like anyone else going down to their malls GNC and buying it there.

    Naysayers on McGwire, explain 87 and the first 10 years of his career, please!

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Me and some of my peers once went fishing at some piers. >>



    Did you catch anything other than a cold?






















    Thanks for the grammar lesson! image
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I really don't know where everybody gets off on McGwire as some roid head, the man (boy really 23 at the time) jacked 49 dingers his first full year in the majors. Thats 1987 people, was he on the juice then? People get stronger as they age, have you ever been punched by a 40 year man? it hurts wwwaaayyyy more than the same punch from a 25 year old.

    He may have used body building supplements as a way to maintain mass/muscle strength as he got older, but it was all legal, OTC stuff, just like anyone else going down to their malls GNC and buying it there.

    Naysayers on McGwire, explain 87 and the first 10 years of his career, please! >>



    McGwire was a great power hitter early in his career. Then he had injuries and nearly fell out of baseball in the mid-90s. All the sudden he reappears with the physique of the incredible hulk and starts bashing 60-70 HR a year. Shortly after retiring from baseball he shows up at a celebrity golf tournament looking much like he did in his early career, i.e., significantly reduced bulk. Not to mention his repeated 'I prefer to focus on discussing the future, not the past' responses at the hearing. There's not enough evidence to convict him in the court of law but there's overwhelming evidence to convict him in the court of public opinion. It's apparently also enough to convict him in the eyes of the sportswriters.

    Edited to add - As far as I'm concerned, the guys who hit 60+ HR on a regular basis in the 90s are all roiders in my mind.
    https://ebay.com/sch/gemint/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yep, what gemint said. I won't think for a second think that these guys will not have their boosters but I have not seen a arguement yet that comes close to explaining the bean pole McGwire rookie, then the manmouth and HUGE Paul Bunyan McGwire, and the skinny saggy looking hermit we have now.

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • gfbgfb Posts: 477
    he does look like a saggy hermit now image

    and i do grasp that after those 2 injury plagued seasons that he did come back bigger and stronger (there's no denying that), but i can't get past the fact that he was a HR monster way BEFORE that even as a beanpole.

    If the talent is natural (and his without question was), is taking legal supplements to help you build muscle mass and perform at the peak of your abilities (and combat the effects of aging) necessarily wrong?


  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>he does look like a saggy hermit now image

    and i do grasp that after those 2 injury plagued seasons that he did come back bigger and stronger (there's no denying that), but i can't get past the fact that he was a HR monster way BEFORE that even as a beanpole.

    If the talent is natural (and his without question was), is taking legal supplements to help you build muscle mass and perform at the peak of your abilities (and combat the effects of aging) necessarily wrong? >>



    Taking protein drinks and other vitamins is ok. Taking steroids and/or HGH is not. McGwire was a great power hitter in his early career. By great, I mean 30-42HR with the exception of his exceptional rookie year. He never was a 60HR guy just like all others in history with two exceptions. To hit 50-60-70 HRs a year consistantly for years is not natural and it never has been. And McGwire didn't have Mickey Mantle hitting behind him either. Even the Babe didn't hit 50+ more than a couple years in a row. To do it 5 straight years, including 70 and 65 in back-to-back seasons is far beyond anything he accomplished in his youth and certainly not explainable by the fact he was older and more experienced.
    https://ebay.com/sch/gemint/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
  • Carew29Carew29 Posts: 4,025 ✭✭

    I believe Barry stated that he will not join the HOF if the asterisk was put on the Home Run ball. And dammit, i'm gonna hold it to him!!!!!!!
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